The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns
mtierney said:
I think I’ve seen these movies on Netflix…
https://nypost.com/2022/09/12/russian-energy-exec-falls-to-his-death-from-boat/
It's also been a good year for defenestrations.
https://www.newsweek.com/russians-keep-mysteriously-falling-windows-deaths-1738954
ridski said:
mtierney said:
I think I’ve seen these movies on Netflix…
https://nypost.com/2022/09/12/russian-energy-exec-falls-to-his-death-from-boat/
It's also been a good year for defenestrations.
https://www.newsweek.com/russians-keep-mysteriously-falling-windows-deaths-1738954
Is there no treatment for this compulsion?
edited to add: My understanding is that Novichok and Polonium have been proven to prevent defenestration.
Smedley said:
ml1 said:
PVW said:
Smedley said:
Well one thing we seem to agree on is that incrementalism is the way, the truth and the light. Even if we disagree on who's an incrementalist and who's not.
This is surprising to me as I thought progressives demanded more robust change than just incrementalism. But it's good to know going forward.
If we're still talking about the minimum wage, I'll repeat that pretty much every actual proposed legislation I've seen raises it over time. Assuming that "lawmakers proposing minimum wage increases" and "progressives" are the same group here, then I'm surprised you're surprised, given the paper trail.
as far as I'm aware "progressive" is not a synonym for "radical" or "impatient." So I don't know where the idea comes from that progressive and incremental are in opposition to each other.
Note this discussion started with the notion that there should be no need/use for private charities because everything should be covered by the government. This to me is a radical notion which I disagree with. You haven't directly stated whether you support this idea but I guess you do because you are disagreeing with me rather than the poster who put forth the idea.
you'll have to find me the quote where anyone suggested abolishing all private charities.
drummerboy said:
And the point, of course, is not to fund existing charities. That would be asinine. The point is to try and alleviate the underlying problems through government assistance. Rather than depend on the whims of donors.
maybe we were just responding to different comments. My comments have been in relation to "try and alleviate the underlying problems through government assistance."
Smedley said:
drummerboy said:
tjohn said:
"no need for private charities" is typical D-boy radical hyperbole. However, I would hope that we can agree that some private charities such as food banks should not have to be funded by private donations.
I'm pretty sure my subsequent posts clarified what I was talking about. Vital needful populations should not be dependent on the vagaries of popular support. Not in a country as wealthy as ours.
Eliminating every charity is obviously a ridiculous goal. But the point remains.
You make it sound easy breezy, but as always the devil is in the details.
What "vital needful populations" aren't supported by the government now but should be?
And, where do you draw the line? What's the first group/cause that doesn't make the vital needful population cut?
if we're talking "vital needful populations" it's everyone who can't afford adequate health care. The out of pocket and deductibles, even among people on Medicaid or who get insurance through an ACA exchange, are often too costly for people to get all the care they need.
Why in the United States should there be anyone foregoing life saving prescriptions because they can't afford them?
The proportion of Americans with difficulty affording health care varies by income and health insurance coverage. Overall, 16.9% of Americans report at least 1 financial barrier. Among those with private insurance, the poor (28.4%), near poor (24.3%), and those with functional impairments (22.9%) were more likely to report avoiding care due to cost. In multivariate models, the uninsured are more likely (OR, 2.3; 95% CI, 1.7 to 3.0) to have trouble paying for care. Independent of insurance coverage and other demographic characteristics, the poor (OR, 3.6; 95% CI, 2.1 to 4.6), near poor (OR, 2.1; 95% CI, 1.9 to 3.7), and middle-income (OR, 1.8; 95% CI, 1.3 to 2.5) respondents as well as those with functional impairments (OR, 1.6; 95% CI, 1.3 to 2.0) are significantly more likely to avoid care due to cost.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490134/
overall, your comments suggest that you don't particularly pay attention to news or information that hints at the number of working people in this country who are enduring considerable struggle to pay for things like health care and education, or to put adequate food on their tables.
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
WRT healthcare, I support an expansion of healthcare in the form of a public option. I agree affordable healthcare should be more accessible than it is currently.
But more broadly speaking, I don't believe that more government is the answer to all of society's problems, as progressives do.
He travels amongst the common folk in disguise, driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla to the drive-up window at Dunkin Donuts.
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
WRT healthcare, I support an expansion of healthcare in the form of a public option. I agree affordable healthcare should be more accessible than it is currently.
But more broadly speaking, I don't believe that more government is the answer to all of society's problems, as progressives do.
find someone who's saying government is the answer to all of society's problems.
a public option is in and of itself not a solution to the lack affordable of health care. Unless it covers dental, vision, hearing, and doesn't have high co-payments and deductibles, it's basically the status quo, but the insured is paying a fee to a government plan instead of a private insurer.
as to your first gratuitous insult to people you don't agree with, it's really nothing for you to be proud of. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you were unaware of a lot of the difficulties of the working poor. IMHO it's worse to be aware and then say nothing can be done because it would be too "radical."
nohero said:
He travels amongst the common folk in disguise, driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla to the drive-up window at Dunkin Donuts.
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
those sorts of comments always amuse me when they are tossed out at people the person knows nothing about aside from a cat avatar and an alias.
nohero said:
He travels amongst the common folk in disguise, driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla to the drive-up window at Dunkin Donuts.
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
A six-year-old car is hardly evidence that a person is of modest means. 2006 model maybe, but not 2016.
Smedley said:
But more broadly speaking, I don't believe that more government is the answer to all of society's problems, as progressives do.
Too often in politics, somebody opposed to progressive programs will use a sort of reasoning along the lines of "since government isn't the answer to all problems, we shouldn't bother with any problems".
Here, we are talking about food security and affordable healthcare. Shouldn't the government make serious efforts to ensure that no citizens go hungry and all citizens have access to healthcare?
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
WRT healthcare, I support an expansion of healthcare in the form of a public option. I agree affordable healthcare should be more accessible than it is currently.
But more broadly speaking, I don't believe that more government is the answer to all of society's problems, as progressives do.
find someone who's saying government is the answer to all of society's problems.
a public option is in and of itself not a solution to the lack affordable of health care. Unless it covers dental, vision, hearing, and doesn't have high co-payments and deductibles, it's basically the status quo, but the insured is paying a fee to a government plan instead of a private insurer.
as to your first gratuitous insult to people you don't agree with, it's really nothing for you to be proud of. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you were unaware of a lot of the difficulties of the working poor. IMHO it's worse to be aware and then say nothing can be done because it would be too "radical."
Find where I said nothing can be done because it's too radical.
Ultimately I think less government (as in the US) is better than more government (as in Europe) because it better allows the private sector to generate wealth which creates more opportunity for all. Hence my much earlier reference to GDP per capita numbers (supplemented by the HBR overview explanation) - the numbers aren't perfect of course but the comps are a pretty powerful indicator of what's possible with less government. I know you like to virtue signal and that's fine, but believe it or not my government/economic system of preference is a function of what I think is best for everyone, not just myself.
Smedley said:
nohero said:
He travels amongst the common folk in disguise, driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla to the drive-up window at Dunkin Donuts.
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
A six-year-old car is hardly evidence that a person is of modest means. 2006 model maybe, but not 2016.
It's a subtle disguise. There's a Tesla in the garage, so on average each car gets 50 mpg.
tjohn said:
Smedley said:
But more broadly speaking, I don't believe that more government is the answer to all of society's problems, as progressives do.
Too often in politics, somebody opposed to progressive programs will use a sort of reasoning along the lines of "since government isn't the answer to all problems, we shouldn't bother with any problems".
Here, we are talking about food security and affordable healthcare. Shouldn't the government make serious efforts to ensure that no citizens go hungry and all citizens have access to healthcare?
Federal spending on USDA's food and nutrition assistance programs totaled $182.5 billion in fiscal year (FY) 2021, 49 percent more than the previous high of $122.8 in FY 2020.
Isn't this a serious effort? What more should the government do?
Smedley said:
tjohn said:
Smedley said:
But more broadly speaking, I don't believe that more government is the answer to all of society's problems, as progressives do.
Too often in politics, somebody opposed to progressive programs will use a sort of reasoning along the lines of "since government isn't the answer to all problems, we shouldn't bother with any problems".
Here, we are talking about food security and affordable healthcare. Shouldn't the government make serious efforts to ensure that no citizens go hungry and all citizens have access to healthcare?
Federal spending on USDA's food and nutrition assistance programs totaled $182.5 billion in fiscal year (FY) 2021, 49 percent more than the previous high of $122.8 in FY 2020.
Isn't this a serious effort? What more should the government do?
When the Community Food Bank of NJ, to name one charity, no longer needs private donations, then the government is doing enough.
Smedley said:
I know you like to virtue signal but believe it or not my government/economic system of preference is a function of what I think is best for everyone, not just myself.
usage of dopey right wing cliches doesn't make you look very smart. and frankly, for me personally, your notion of what makes for best policy would benefit me A LOT more than my own ideas for best policy.
If we didn't have millions of people who can't afford health care or college, I wouldn't be looking to change anything. But it's really clear that our current system doesn't work to cover certain necessities for well-being.
Smedley said:
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
WRT healthcare, I support an expansion of healthcare in the form of a public option. I agree affordable healthcare should be more accessible than it is currently.
But more broadly speaking, I don't believe that more government is the answer to all of society's problems, as progressives do.
find someone who's saying government is the answer to all of society's problems.
a public option is in and of itself not a solution to the lack affordable of health care. Unless it covers dental, vision, hearing, and doesn't have high co-payments and deductibles, it's basically the status quo, but the insured is paying a fee to a government plan instead of a private insurer.
as to your first gratuitous insult to people you don't agree with, it's really nothing for you to be proud of. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you were unaware of a lot of the difficulties of the working poor. IMHO it's worse to be aware and then say nothing can be done because it would be too "radical."
Find where I said nothing can be done because it's too radical.
Ultimately I think less government (as in the US) is better than more government (as in Europe) because it better allows the private sector to generate wealth which creates more opportunity for all. Hence my much earlier reference to GDP per capita numbers (supplemented by the HBR overview explanation) - the numbers aren't perfect of course but the comps are a pretty powerful indicator of what's possible with less government. I know you like to virtue signal and that's fine, but believe it or not my government/economic system of preference is a function of what I think is best for everyone, not just myself.
ok, you've not indicated "nothing can be done." But you've dismissed the idea that more should be done as "radical" even in concept. It's not like anyone here has laid out a specific ten-point plan of what precisely should be done to make health care or nutrition more affordable, with a price tag of $X trillion. You've been against the most vague anodyne statements that more can be done. So forgive me for thinking that means you're not in favor of any increased spending on social services.
ml1 said:
nohero said:
He travels amongst the common folk in disguise, driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla to the drive-up window at Dunkin Donuts.
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
those sorts of comments always amuse me when they are tossed out at people the person knows nothing about aside from a cat avatar and an alias.
Shouldn't we have eradicated this stupid meme by now? There's 15,466 Starbucks locations, New Jersey isn't even in the top 10 states for number of locations (though Ohio, Virginia, Colorado and Arizona is), and to top it off, out of the top 10 most popular drinks at Starbucks - 3 of them are lattes, including the NUMBER ONE MOST POPULAR DRINK IN STARBUCKS, the Vanilla Latte. Latte's aren't a liberal elite thing at all. Everyone drinks them. Jeez, I bet in the 70s Smedley pointed and laughed at quiche-eaters.
ridski said:
Shouldn't we have eradicated this stupid meme by now? There's 15,466 Starbucks locations, New Jersey isn't even in the top 10 states for number of locations (though Ohio, Virginia, Colorado and Arizona is), and to top it off, out of the top 10 most popular drinks at Starbucks - 3 of them are lattes, including the NUMBER ONE MOST POPULAR DRINK IN STARBUCKS, the Vanilla Latte. Latte's aren't a liberal elite thing at all. Everyone drinks them. Jeez, I bet in the 70s Smedley pointed and laughed at quiche-eaters.
Kombucha might be a better one.
and one more comment. I'm not dogmatic about any of these issues. If someone can present data to me that high GDP by itself really and truly indicates more opportunity for the greatest number of people my mind would be open to the idea that less government support for social services is better.
If someone can point to good upward mobility data for the U.S., and better income equality in the U.S. compared to other developed nations, I'm open to it. And maybe I've only been exposed to "fake news" and what I think I know about a lack of opportunity for upward mobility in the U.S. is false.
Smedley said:
nohero said:
He travels amongst the common folk in disguise, driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla to the drive-up window at Dunkin Donuts.
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
A six-year-old car is hardly evidence that a person is of modest means. 2006 model maybe, but not 2016.
I drive a 2003.
ml1 said:
and one more comment. I'm not dogmatic about any of these issues. If someone can present data to me that high GDP by itself really and truly indicates more opportunity for the greatest number of people my mind would be open to the idea that less government support for social services is better.
If someone can point to good upward mobility data for the U.S., and better income equality in the U.S. compared to other developed nations, I'm open to it. And maybe I've only been exposed to "fake news" and what I think I know about a lack of opportunity for upward mobility in the U.S. is false.
Of course, all the data shows just the opposite.
Take GDP. A decent part of our GDP is health care / drug costs, both very wasteful expenses that don't do much more than make a certain class of people very wealthy by serving as useless middlemen (for health care) and government supported rent seekers (drug makers).
Countries that have national health care don't have as significant a percentage of their GDP devoted to those two industries, so their GDP's are lower. And wisely so.
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
nohero said:
He travels amongst the common folk in disguise, driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla to the drive-up window at Dunkin Donuts.
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
A six-year-old car is hardly evidence that a person is of modest means. 2006 model maybe, but not 2016.
I drive a 2003.
Oh, well aren't you virtuous. Corolla?
tjohn said:
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
nohero said:
He travels amongst the common folk in disguise, driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla to the drive-up window at Dunkin Donuts.
Smedley said:
Yes I am aware of working people's struggles; quite possibly even more aware than the average Maplewood latte liberal such as yourself.
A six-year-old car is hardly evidence that a person is of modest means. 2006 model maybe, but not 2016.
I drive a 2003.
Oh, well aren't you virtuous. Corolla?
Mercedes that I bought used for 8k.
Now, the following comments by the veep should give each and every citizen pause for thought: What in the world is she actually saying?
Listen up you trumpist. If the border wasn’t secure people would not be drowning trying to cross the river. Thousands of migrants have scaled the wall already. You nor trumpenstein can secure every inch of the border with Mexico. How come you understand trumpenstein when he speaks but can’t understand Kamala?
mtierney said:
Now, the following comments by the veep should give each and every citizen pause for thought: What in the world is she actually saying?
Do you ever get tired of whining?
mtierney said:
Now, the following comments by the veep should give each and every citizen pause for thought: What in the world is she actually saying?
Chuck Todd is citing the number of people encountered by Customs and Border Patrol. VP Harris is saying that we need to improve our laws and systems for dealing with migrants and immigrants.
I don't know why people cannot understand that when they use the "two million" figure and ask if the border is "secure", that it means that two million people were stopped and dealt with by government officials at the border.
mtierney said:
Now, the following comments by the veep should give each and every citizen pause for thought: What in the world is she actually saying?
anyone who says they can't understand those comments is either pretending to be stupid, or really is stupid.
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You make it sound easy breezy, but as always the devil is in the details.
What "vital needful populations" aren't supported by the government now but should be?
And, where do you draw the line? What's the first group/cause that doesn't make the vital needful population cut?