Tulsi Gabbard: Trump Stay Out of Venezuela
nan said:
What does the fact that the US is doing a coup in Venezuela have to do with my feelings for the US?
I posted a link to this on the Venezuela thread in the sub-basement. I thought it was very informative. Despite the title, the situation it describes isn't "the US is doing a coup".
nan said:
Dennis_Seelbach said:What does the fact that the US is doing a coup in Venezuela have to do with my feelings for the US?
It's absolutely stunning how much hatred you have for your country ! There seems to be NOTHING about the USA that you find acceptable. What a shame.
Your hyperbole on Venezuela is just one part of it. Unless it's Bernie, or now Tulsi, there is NOTHING about this country you like. Over and over, ad nauseum (almost for real), you carry on, prattling about the evils of our society. Get a life, please, and leave us alone !
Dennis_Seelbach said:
nan said:Your hyperbole on Venezuela is just one part of it. Unless it's Bernie, or now Tulsi, there is NOTHING about this country you like. Over and over, ad nauseum (almost for real), you carry on, prattling about the evils of our society. Get a life, please, and leave us alone !
Dennis_Seelbach said:What does the fact that the US is doing a coup in Venezuela have to do with my feelings for the US?
It's absolutely stunning how much hatred you have for your country ! There seems to be NOTHING about the USA that you find acceptable. What a shame.
So basically, for you to approve of me, I have to abandon facts and agree with your delusions?
nan said:
Dennis_Seelbach said:So basically, for you to approve of me, I have to abandon facts and agree with your delusions?
Your hyperbole on Venezuela is just one part of it. Unless it's Bernie, or now Tulsi, there is NOTHING about this country you like. Over and over, ad nauseum (almost for real), you carry on, prattling about the evils of our society. Get a life, please, and leave us alone !
I believe you have it backwards. You need to believe in facts, and wash the wacko delusions from your mind. Sorry to burst your bubble, Bunkie !
Dennis_Seelbach said:
nan said:I believe you have it backwards. You need to believe in facts, and wash the wacko delusions from your mind. Sorry to burst your bubble, Bunkie !
Dennis_Seelbach said:So basically, for you to approve of me, I have to abandon facts and agree with your delusions?
Your hyperbole on Venezuela is just one part of it. Unless it's Bernie, or now Tulsi, there is NOTHING about this country you like. Over and over, ad nauseum (almost for real), you carry on, prattling about the evils of our society. Get a life, please, and leave us alone !
So, what facts do I need to believe in? Please be specific.
Are the sources upon which Nan relies, or even just some of them, Russian agents?
All these folks seem to do is attack others on the Left. Trump is doing the best he can to destroy American Democracy and most on the Right are enabling him.
The Left must unite!
nohero said:I don't think anyone here is supporting intervention.
EXACTLY!!!
LOST said:
Are the sources upon which Nan relies, or even just some of them, Russian agents?
All these folks seem to do is attack others on the Left. Trump is doing the best he can to destroy American Democracy and most on the Right are enabling him.
The Left must unite!
nohero said:EXACTLY!!!
I don't think anyone here is supporting intervention.
Are you serious? WTF????? OK, I"m taking a deep breath. Did you actually ask nohero if my view that the US is staging a coup against Venezuela (which is IS- don't be a dolt) is something I think because I've been brainwashed by a Russian operative???? Please tell me you are not that deluded.
That's nuts. And I'm glad you are against intervention, but if you listen to the guy interviewed in the podcast Nohero told us all to listen to (a head guy at Washington Post), they are working on getting us ready to accept intervention (he says this subtly -- and chooses his words carefully). I"m sure they will soon convince you that intervention is the way to go.
Please let me know why we have any right to be meddling in this country? It seems you are upset about Trump destroying American Democracy, but you are fine with destroying Democracy in other counties.
South_Mountaineer said:
nan said:I posted a link to this on the Venezuela thread in the sub-basement. I thought it was very informative. Despite the title, the situation it describes isn't "the US is doing a coup".
What does the fact that the US is doing a coup in Venezuela have to do with my feelings for the US?
https://crooked.com/podcast/a-coup-in-venezuela/
I listened to your pod-cast. Both the interviewer and the interviewee (Anthony Faiola) were on a first name basis with Guaido's mentor. One went to the same college as "Leo" and the other calls his wife up to check on his well-being. So no surprise, they are pulling for Maduro's removal. They declare a false consensus that the last election was illegitimate (it wasn't) and the Washington Post guy says this is different. from all the other overthrown South American countries because this one is a humanitarian crisis (not mentioned is how US sanctions cause this crisis). Then they talk about the "two prong stategy" to remove Maduro. First, they will be getting all the other countries on board and then making it impossible to for them to sell oil to the US. The other prong is to get the people made enough at Maduro that they take to the streets--standard coup operating procedure. Faiola talks disdainfully about the group of resistant Maduro supporters who still think socialism is the way to go--but says this group is probably shrinking and will fall in line.
So, then the discussion comes around to interventions and the WashPo guy, Faiola, says yeah, we don't want intervention, but things are just getting so horrible there and the countries around it are suffering,so we shall see. . .obviously trying to get us read for support for that.
Anyway, I listened to your podcast as requested and I'm more than ever convinced that this is a US coup against Venezuela and that the MSM is filled with propaganda. There is nothing different about this coup than all the other 50ish coups in South America and it's following a predictable pattern and unless people wake up and protest, we will most likely be seeing troops there soon.
nan said:Are you serious? WTF????? OK, I"m taking a deep breath. Did you actually ask nohero if my view that the US is staging a coup against Venezuela (which is IS- don't be a dolt) is something I think because I've been brainwashed by a Russian operative???? Please tell me you are not that deluded.
That's nuts. And I'm glad you are against intervention, but if you listen to the guy interviewed in the podcast Nohero told us all to listen to (a head guy at Washington Post), they are working on getting us ready to accept intervention (he says this subtly -- and chooses his words carefully). I"m sure they will soon convince you that intervention is the way to go.
Please let me know why we have any right to be meddling in this country? It seems you are upset about Trump destroying American Democracy, but you are fine with destroying Democracy in other counties.
South_Mountaineer, not nohero, recommended the podcast. Deep breath.
LOST said:
Are the sources upon which Nan relies, or even just some of them, Russian agents?
All these folks seem to do is attack others on the Left. Trump is doing the best he can to destroy American Democracy and most on the Right are enabling him.
The Left must unite!
nohero said:EXACTLY!!!
I don't think anyone here is supporting intervention.
Sanctions don’t qualify as intervening?
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:South_Mountaineer, not nohero, recommended the podcast. Deep breath.
Are you serious? WTF????? OK, I"m taking a deep breath. Did you actually ask nohero if my view that the US is staging a coup against Venezuela (which is IS- don't be a dolt) is something I think because I've been brainwashed by a Russian operative???? Please tell me you are not that deluded.
That's nuts. And I'm glad you are against intervention, but if you listen to the guy interviewed in the podcast Nohero told us all to listen to (a head guy at Washington Post), they are working on getting us ready to accept intervention (he says this subtly -- and chooses his words carefully). I"m sure they will soon convince you that intervention is the way to go.
Please let me know why we have any right to be meddling in this country? It seems you are upset about Trump destroying American Democracy, but you are fine with destroying Democracy in other counties.
Ok, but you know my view on that. It's our little secret.
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:I listened to your pod-cast. Both the interviewer and the interviewee (Anthony Faiola) were on a first name basis with Guaido's mentor. One went to the same college as "Leo" and the other calls his wife up to check on his well-being. So no surprise, they are pulling for Maduro's removal. They declare a false consensus that the last election was illegitimate (it wasn't) and the Washington Post guy says this is different. from all the other overthrown South American countries because this one is a humanitarian crisis (not mentioned is how US sanctions cause this crisis). Then they talk about the "two prong stategy" to remove Maduro. First, they will be getting all the other countries on board and then making it impossible to for them to sell oil to the US. The other prong is to get the people made enough at Maduro that they take to the streets--standard coup operating procedure. Faiola talks disdainfully about the group of resistant Maduro supporters who still think socialism is the way to go--but says this group is probably shrinking and will fall in line.
nan said:I posted a link to this on the Venezuela thread in the sub-basement. I thought it was very informative. Despite the title, the situation it describes isn't "the US is doing a coup".
What does the fact that the US is doing a coup in Venezuela have to do with my feelings for the US?
https://crooked.com/podcast/a-coup-in-venezuela/
So, then the discussion comes around to interventions and the WashPo guy, Faiola, says yeah, we don't want intervention, but things are just getting so horrible there and the countries around it are suffering,so we shall see. . .obviously trying to get us read for support for that.
Anyway, I listened to your podcast as requested and I'm more than ever convinced that this is a US coup against Venezuela and that the MSM is filled with propaganda. There is nothing different about this coup than all the other 50ish coups in South America and it's following a predictable pattern and unless people wake up and protest, we will most likely be seeing troops there soon.
That's a ridiculous interpretation. Unless you have a time reference and an actual quote, I wouldn't put much stock in it.
And "Leo" is Leopoldo Lopez. I looked him up after hearing their discussion. You should too.
South_Mountaineer said:
nan said:That's a ridiculous interpretation. Unless you have a time reference and an actual quote, I wouldn't put much stock in it.
South_Mountaineer said:I listened to your pod-cast. Both the interviewer and the interviewee (Anthony Faiola) were on a first name basis with Guaido's mentor. One went to the same college as "Leo" and the other calls his wife up to check on his well-being. So no surprise, they are pulling for Maduro's removal. They declare a false consensus that the last election was illegitimate (it wasn't) and the Washington Post guy says this is different. from all the other overthrown South American countries because this one is a humanitarian crisis (not mentioned is how US sanctions cause this crisis). Then they talk about the "two prong stategy" to remove Maduro. First, they will be getting all the other countries on board and then making it impossible to for them to sell oil to the US. The other prong is to get the people made enough at Maduro that they take to the streets--standard coup operating procedure. Faiola talks disdainfully about the group of resistant Maduro supporters who still think socialism is the way to go--but says this group is probably shrinking and will fall in line.
nan said:I posted a link to this on the Venezuela thread in the sub-basement. I thought it was very informative. Despite the title, the situation it describes isn't "the US is doing a coup".
What does the fact that the US is doing a coup in Venezuela have to do with my feelings for the US?
https://crooked.com/podcast/a-coup-in-venezuela/
So, then the discussion comes around to interventions and the WashPo guy, Faiola, says yeah, we don't want intervention, but things are just getting so horrible there and the countries around it are suffering,so we shall see. . .obviously trying to get us read for support for that.
Anyway, I listened to your podcast as requested and I'm more than ever convinced that this is a US coup against Venezuela and that the MSM is filled with propaganda. There is nothing different about this coup than all the other 50ish coups in South America and it's following a predictable pattern and unless people wake up and protest, we will most likely be seeing troops there soon.
And "Leo" is Leopoldo Lopez. I looked him up after hearing their discussion. You should too.
This is just one part. After this he goes on to basically say that the Venezuelan people want us to intervene except for some leftists who are also coming around:
(10:42): Tommy, the Narrator: The Trump administration keeps saying that all options are on the table, which usually means military forces on the ground. That gives a president flexibility, but in this case there is some real concern that he means it. Yesterday, a photo of John Bolton, the National Security advisor let a note be photographed that said “5000 troops to Columbia.” That’s not very good operational security [but of course that was planned--but the interviewer either does not know that or pretends not to know]. What do make of the feasibility of a US option in Venezuela and do you think the rest of the coalition in the area (11:15) that have gone along with the effort to force Maduro out would be cool with US boots on the ground?
Anthony Faiola (AF): (11:22): I think you have to remember that in Latin America, the idea of US intervention is particularly thorny. There is lots of dissent in the region over past interventions. But what I think we have in the region is that Venezuela is different. The humanitarian crisis (11:46) in Venezuela is horrific. You know people are starving. Disease is spreading. There is a lack of medication. [Says this right after listing the choking sanctions as though there were not cause and effect]. You know, hyperinflation, that’s . .it’s almost a failed state. (11:58) And so as a result of that you see 100’s of thousands of Venezuelans pouring over the border into the countries like Brazil, Columbia, Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Argentina, and these counties are feeling overwhelmed [So he is making his case that we need to intervene cause of this situation which may not be as described and is caused by US intervention--just like in every coup]. Now they want the situation solved. Now you may see them publicly insist that military intervention is a horrible idea, BUT, privately I think you may see some of them thinking that you know look, “This problem has to be solved.” [He’s priming the pipes here--Manufactured Consent ALERT!] How is it going to get solved? [Oh, here is where you are supposed to start thinking, “oh maybe we have to go in. . “]. I think they want to see everything exhausted before. . [Like maybe another assassination attempt or we the military goes against him], any intervention takes place. . and I don’t know that we are there yet [But sounds like very soon], But, I think what you are seeing is. (12:44) behind the scenes some toning down of the normal opposition that you would see, towards some kind of military intervention in Latin America, because of just how bad the humanitarian crisis is and the way it is impacting the country and the region.
I know about Leopoldo Lopez. Is this a guy you support? Here's a two minute high level overview:
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:This is just one part. After this he goes on to basically say that the Venezuelan people want us to intervene except for some leftists who are also coming around:
nan said:That's a ridiculous interpretation. Unless you have a time reference and an actual quote, I wouldn't put much stock in it.
South_Mountaineer said:I listened to your pod-cast. Both the interviewer and the interviewee (Anthony Faiola) were on a first name basis with Guaido's mentor. One went to the same college as "Leo" and the other calls his wife up to check on his well-being. So no surprise, they are pulling for Maduro's removal. They declare a false consensus that the last election was illegitimate (it wasn't) and the Washington Post guy says this is different. from all the other overthrown South American countries because this one is a humanitarian crisis (not mentioned is how US sanctions cause this crisis). Then they talk about the "two prong stategy" to remove Maduro. First, they will be getting all the other countries on board and then making it impossible to for them to sell oil to the US. The other prong is to get the people made enough at Maduro that they take to the streets--standard coup operating procedure. Faiola talks disdainfully about the group of resistant Maduro supporters who still think socialism is the way to go--but says this group is probably shrinking and will fall in line.
nan said:I posted a link to this on the Venezuela thread in the sub-basement. I thought it was very informative. Despite the title, the situation it describes isn't "the US is doing a coup".
What does the fact that the US is doing a coup in Venezuela have to do with my feelings for the US?
https://crooked.com/podcast/a-coup-in-venezuela/
So, then the discussion comes around to interventions and the WashPo guy, Faiola, says yeah, we don't want intervention, but things are just getting so horrible there and the countries around it are suffering,so we shall see. . .obviously trying to get us read for support for that.
Anyway, I listened to your podcast as requested and I'm more than ever convinced that this is a US coup against Venezuela and that the MSM is filled with propaganda. There is nothing different about this coup than all the other 50ish coups in South America and it's following a predictable pattern and unless people wake up and protest, we will most likely be seeing troops there soon.
And "Leo" is Leopoldo Lopez. I looked him up after hearing their discussion. You should too.
(10:42): Tommy, the Narrator: The Trump administration keeps saying that all options are on the table, which usually means military forces on the ground. That gives a president flexibility, but in this case there is some real concern that he means it. Yesterday, a photo of John Bolton, the National Security advisor let a note be photographed that said “5000 troops to Columbia.” That’s not very good operational security [but of course that was planned--but the interviewer either does not know that or pretends not to know]. What do make of the feasibility of a US option in Venezuela and do you think the rest of the coalition in the area (11:15) that have gone along with the effort to force Maduro out would be cool with US boots on the ground?
Anthony Faiola (AF): (11:22): I think you have to remember that in Latin America, the idea of US intervention is particularly thorny. There is lots of dissent in the region over past interventions. But what I think we have in the region is that Venezuela is different. The humanitarian crisis (11:46) in Venezuela is horrific. You know people are starving. Disease is spreading. There is a lack of medication. [Says this right after listing the choking sanctions as though there were not cause and effect]. You know, hyperinflation, that’s . .it’s almost a failed state. (11:58) And so as a result of that you see 100’s of thousands of Venezuelans pouring over the border into the countries like Brazil, Columbia, Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Argentina, and these counties are feeling overwhelmed [So he is making his case that we need to intervene cause of this situation which may not be as described and is caused by US intervention--just like in every coup]. Now they want the situation solved. Now you may see them publicly insist that military intervention is a horrible idea, BUT, privately I think you may see some of them thinking that you know look, “This problem has to be solved.” [He’s priming the pipes here--Manufactured Consent ALERT!] How is it going to get solved? [Oh, here is where you are supposed to start thinking, “oh maybe we have to go in. . “]. I think they want to see everything exhausted before. . [Like maybe another assassination attempt or we the military goes against him], any intervention takes place. . and I don’t know that we are there yet [But sounds like very soon], But, I think what you are seeing is. (12:44) behind the scenes some toning down of the normal opposition that you would see, towards some kind of military intervention in Latin America, because of just how bad the humanitarian crisis is and the way it is impacting the country and the region.
I know about Leopoldo Lopez. Is this a guy you support? Here's a two minute high level overview:
I think your summaries ignore their point. You picked out statements and added your comments. What they're discussing is the attitude of neighboring countries - that's clear even in the parts you typed out (I haven't listened to check for accuracy).
They are noting that it's the internal opposition and the neighboring countries which are driving this change. It's not a "US coup". When they talk about military action, they point out that's not going to go well with the neighbors -- but then add that the neighbors are desperate for a solution to the refugee crisis.
And as to why the economy is a mess - it's not because of US sanctions.
As for Leopoldo Lopez -- all I know about him is what I read online, from some respected international voices (including Jimmy Carter, in connection with his election work).
Your video is from Venezuelan state-owned media -- it didn't come up in the search I did, but I know you have different sources. I did read about the claims made in that video -- mostly that they were proven false, again as testified to by respected international voices.
South_Mountaineer said:
nan said:I think your summaries ignore their point. You picked out statements and added your comments. What they're discussing is the attitude of neighboring countries - that's clear even in the parts you typed out (I haven't listened to check for accuracy).
South_Mountaineer said:This is just one part. After this he goes on to basically say that the Venezuelan people want us to intervene except for some leftists who are also coming around:
nan said:That's a ridiculous interpretation. Unless you have a time reference and an actual quote, I wouldn't put much stock in it.
South_Mountaineer said:I listened to your pod-cast. Both the interviewer and the interviewee (Anthony Faiola) were on a first name basis with Guaido's mentor. One went to the same college as "Leo" and the other calls his wife up to check on his well-being. So no surprise, they are pulling for Maduro's removal. They declare a false consensus that the last election was illegitimate (it wasn't) and the Washington Post guy says this is different. from all the other overthrown South American countries because this one is a humanitarian crisis (not mentioned is how US sanctions cause this crisis). Then they talk about the "two prong stategy" to remove Maduro. First, they will be getting all the other countries on board and then making it impossible to for them to sell oil to the US. The other prong is to get the people made enough at Maduro that they take to the streets--standard coup operating procedure. Faiola talks disdainfully about the group of resistant Maduro supporters who still think socialism is the way to go--but says this group is probably shrinking and will fall in line.
nan said:I posted a link to this on the Venezuela thread in the sub-basement. I thought it was very informative. Despite the title, the situation it describes isn't "the US is doing a coup".
What does the fact that the US is doing a coup in Venezuela have to do with my feelings for the US?
https://crooked.com/podcast/a-coup-in-venezuela/
So, then the discussion comes around to interventions and the WashPo guy, Faiola, says yeah, we don't want intervention, but things are just getting so horrible there and the countries around it are suffering,so we shall see. . .obviously trying to get us read for support for that.
Anyway, I listened to your podcast as requested and I'm more than ever convinced that this is a US coup against Venezuela and that the MSM is filled with propaganda. There is nothing different about this coup than all the other 50ish coups in South America and it's following a predictable pattern and unless people wake up and protest, we will most likely be seeing troops there soon.
And "Leo" is Leopoldo Lopez. I looked him up after hearing their discussion. You should too.
(10:42): Tommy, the Narrator: The Trump administration keeps saying that all options are on the table, which usually means military forces on the ground. That gives a president flexibility, but in this case there is some real concern that he means it. Yesterday, a photo of John Bolton, the National Security advisor let a note be photographed that said “5000 troops to Columbia.” That’s not very good operational security [but of course that was planned--but the interviewer either does not know that or pretends not to know]. What do make of the feasibility of a US option in Venezuela and do you think the rest of the coalition in the area (11:15) that have gone along with the effort to force Maduro out would be cool with US boots on the ground?
Anthony Faiola (AF): (11:22): I think you have to remember that in Latin America, the idea of US intervention is particularly thorny. There is lots of dissent in the region over past interventions. But what I think we have in the region is that Venezuela is different. The humanitarian crisis (11:46) in Venezuela is horrific. You know people are starving. Disease is spreading. There is a lack of medication. [Says this right after listing the choking sanctions as though there were not cause and effect]. You know, hyperinflation, that’s . .it’s almost a failed state. (11:58) And so as a result of that you see 100’s of thousands of Venezuelans pouring over the border into the countries like Brazil, Columbia, Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Argentina, and these counties are feeling overwhelmed [So he is making his case that we need to intervene cause of this situation which may not be as described and is caused by US intervention--just like in every coup]. Now they want the situation solved. Now you may see them publicly insist that military intervention is a horrible idea, BUT, privately I think you may see some of them thinking that you know look, “This problem has to be solved.” [He’s priming the pipes here--Manufactured Consent ALERT!] How is it going to get solved? [Oh, here is where you are supposed to start thinking, “oh maybe we have to go in. . “]. I think they want to see everything exhausted before. . [Like maybe another assassination attempt or we the military goes against him], any intervention takes place. . and I don’t know that we are there yet [But sounds like very soon], But, I think what you are seeing is. (12:44) behind the scenes some toning down of the normal opposition that you would see, towards some kind of military intervention in Latin America, because of just how bad the humanitarian crisis is and the way it is impacting the country and the region.
I know about Leopoldo Lopez. Is this a guy you support? Here's a two minute high level overview:
They are noting that it's the internal opposition and the neighboring countries which are driving this change. It's not a "US coup". When they talk about military action, they point out that's not going to go well with the neighbors -- but then add that the neighbors are desperate for a solution to the refugee crisis.
And as to why the economy is a mess - it's not because of US sanctions.
As for Leopoldo Lopez -- all I know about him is what I read online, from some respected international voices (including Jimmy Carter, in connection with his election work).
Your video is from Venezuelan state-owned media -- it didn't come up in the search I did, but I know you have different sources. I did read about the claims made in that video -- mostly that they were proven false, again as testified to by respected international voices.
You don't use any evidence to make your points. He says the situation in Venezuela is dire, and yet in multiple videos I have seen recently (I can post them) with people actually in Venezuela, the situation is calm and normal. There is no major urgency for revolution and the majority of the people do not want this guy they never heard of to be president. It's clear that's what the Washington Post guy (Washington Post = CIA's favorite newspaper) wants you to believe. The interviewer just lets him say what he wants and just asks softball questions. He sounds like the NPR guy who interviewed Bill Browder.
Did you listen to my video from the Real News? That one actually discusses the situation with various views and goes into substantive detail.
On the Leopoldo Lopez guy, Guaidó's mentor-what claims do you dispute? Max Blumenthal (not Venezuelan-state-owned media--and yet finds same facts), discusses him in the video below at (7:30). He says the opposition is not popular. They come from a party called "Popular Will" which he investigated. He and a colleague did lots of research on Guaidó and he is, as expected, that he was trained in a "regime-change laboratory" by US-backed groups going back to 2007. He had CIA trainers brought in to train "student cells" to destabilize starting with with the universities.
His mentor, Leo, is clearly part of this also. Blumental describes his role as being an aristocratic face of the US opposition (while Guaidó was working at a lower level). They got involved in some heinous plots, and associated with assassination plots (Maduro has has a few assassination attempts), with Marco Rubio's main asset (name mentioned in video--and described as a "complete fanatic"), That group carried out plots to start violence in the streets in order to destabilize the country. Lopez, with Guaidó by his side laid siege to Caracas in 2016, commanding so-called "students" who were really from the wealthy, private universities, along with mercenary militia type characters. They would shut down entire areas and blockade them and start violently confronting the police. They would wrap barbed wire across highways and shut them down. People were decapitated by this.
There is video of these people clearly showing their involvement in these demonstrations. He was funded by wealthy oligarchs and the US. The US spent at least 50 million dollars on this "democracy" training program. So you support this? How would like it if a foreign power that was able to start opposition groups here that put barbed wire across Route 78 and then the people that did that swore themselves in as president?
Dennis_Seelbach said:
nan said:It's absolutely stunning how much hatred you have for your country ! There seems to be NOTHING about the USA that you find acceptable. What a shame.
The big problem in Venezuela has been US interference. They are the ones putting sanctions in place that caused economic problems and unrest. They are the ones trying to undermine the Democratically elected government. What business do we have getting involved over there? They are not part of the US. You seem to believe the BS spouted by the mainstream news. But of course, you think the CIA is a force for good, not evil. They don't even show the pro-government rallies, which are huge. You are too old to fall for this crap once again--have you not seen what has happened in South America over and over? Do you not notice a pattern? So glad Tulsi Gabbard has the courage to speak out directly on what is going on. of course she will be skewered mercilessly for doing that, but she did the right thing.
Look who's defending Trump!
Edited to add: And conflating Trump with "the USA."
nohero said:
Klinker said:I don't think anyone here is supporting intervention.
Can someone who supports US intervention please explain to me how the internal politics of Venezuela is, in any way, our concern?
As an attorney, I thought you'd like to see the National Lawyers Guild legal analysis of Trump's "interference" in Venezuela. My bold:
NLG Statement on the Illegal U.S. Interference in the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela
Posted on January 29, 2019
The National Lawyers Guild (NLG) is the oldest human rights bar association in the United States, with members in every state and a mission to value human rights and the rights of ecosystems over property interests. For more than a decade, the NLG International Committee has sent numerous delegations to Venezuela to observe nearly a dozen elections and research the electoral system, including meeting with lawyers and judges, community workers, union members, economists, journalists, government officials and opposition leaders.
The statements of Vice-President Mike Pence and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo openly calling for democratically elected President Nicolas Maduro to be removed by a military and popular revolt harken back to the dark days of direct intervention in Latin America and make it clear that the U.S. is currently orchestrating a coup against the elected government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. The shocking aggression and illegal interference against a sovereign nation by the Trump administration is a blatant violation of the charters of the United Nations and Organization of American States, which recognize the principles of national sovereignty, peaceful settlement of disputes, and a prohibition on threatening or using force against the territory of another state.
The contempt that this administration has shown for the norms and core values of international law has been apparent from threatening the use of force against other nations, withdrawing from the U.N. Human Rights Council and attempting to discredit U.N. independent experts. However, directly fomenting a coup in a sovereign nation is not only illegal and outright shunned by the international community, it fundamentally undermines any pretextual concern about interference by other nations in U.S. elections.
Plots to overthrow the elected government in order to dismantle the regional economic, military, political and social alliances that have been established without the participation of the U.S. have been at the core of U.S. policy in Venezuela and the region since the election of former President Hugo Chávez. After unsuccessfully supporting a military coup against Chávez in 2002, U.S. administrations have consistently funded hard right opposition forces in their efforts to oust Chávez and reverse the people-centered Bolivarian Project. As recently as 2014, the U.S. supported violent street actions (guarimbas) planned and executed by the opposition. In 2015, President Obama declared Venezuela to be an “unusual and extraordinary threat” to U.S. national security and imposed unilateral sanctions. The recent appointment of Elliott Abrams by the Trump administration—a notorious human rights violator and war criminal—to coordinate the Venezuela destabilization operation further strips away any pretextual argument that the U.S. is concerned about democracy and human rights in Venezuela and instead shows how far the U.S. will go to implement its long-standing plans for regime change.
The National Lawyers Guild recognizes the complexities of the situation in Venezuela and joins the concerns of other progressive leaders that there is a critical need for dialogue. We condemn the statement by Secretary of State Pompeo on January 24, 2019, that “the time for debate is over.” Our government has consistently stood in the way of any meaningful dialogue between the Bolivarian government and its opposition and continues to support the forces that promote violence and polarization. The NLG calls on our government to respect international law, to refrain from intervening (militarily, economically or politically) in the sovereign affairs of Venezuela and to allow for peaceful debate among all sectors of Venezuelan society to take place as determined by its people.
paulsurovell said:
Dennis_Seelbach said:Look who's defending Trump!It's absolutely stunning how much hatred you have for your country ! There seems to be NOTHING about the USA that you find acceptable. What a shame.
Edited to add: And conflating Trump with "the USA."
Nice try Paul...I fail to see any reference to the Orange Creamsicle, other than your reference. My point, which you will never understand, is that criticism is one thing. Blind, abject hatred of anything American, is what you and Nan practice, with the exception of anything that comes out of Bernie's or Tulsi's mouth. And while Jamie can certainly censor any of my comments, that won't stop me from making these kinds of points.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:As an attorney, I thought you'd like to see the National Lawyers Guild legal analysis of Trump's "interference" in Venezuela. My bold:
Klinker said:I don't think anyone here is supporting intervention.
Can someone who supports US intervention please explain to me how the internal politics of Venezuela is, in any way, our concern?
https://www.nlg.org/nlg-statement-on-the-illegal-u-s-interference-in-the-bolivarian-republic-of-venezuela/
NLG Statement on the Illegal U.S. Interference in the Bolivarian Republic of VenezuelaPosted on January 29, 2019The National Lawyers Guild (NLG) is the oldest human rights bar association in the United States, with members in every state and a mission to value human rights and the rights of ecosystems over property interests. For more than a decade, the NLG International Committee has sent numerous delegations to Venezuela to observe nearly a dozen elections and research the electoral system, including meeting with lawyers and judges, community workers, union members, economists, journalists, government officials and opposition leaders.The statements of Vice-President Mike Pence and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo openly calling for democratically elected President Nicolas Maduro to be removed by a military and popular revolt harken back to the dark days of direct intervention in Latin America and make it clear that the U.S. is currently orchestrating a coup against the elected government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. The shocking aggression and illegal interference against a sovereign nation by the Trump administration is a blatant violation of the charters of the United Nations and Organization of American States, which recognize the principles of national sovereignty, peaceful settlement of disputes, and a prohibition on threatening or using force against the territory of another state.The contempt that this administration has shown for the norms and core values of international law has been apparent from threatening the use of force against other nations, withdrawing from the U.N. Human Rights Council and attempting to discredit U.N. independent experts. However, directly fomenting a coup in a sovereign nation is not only illegal and outright shunned by the international community, it fundamentally undermines any pretextual concern about interference by other nations in U.S. elections.Plots to overthrow the elected government in order to dismantle the regional economic, military, political and social alliances that have been established without the participation of the U.S. have been at the core of U.S. policy in Venezuela and the region since the election of former President Hugo Chávez. After unsuccessfully supporting a military coup against Chávez in 2002, U.S. administrations have consistently funded hard right opposition forces in their efforts to oust Chávez and reverse the people-centered Bolivarian Project. As recently as 2014, the U.S. supported violent street actions (guarimbas) planned and executed by the opposition. In 2015, President Obama declared Venezuela to be an “unusual and extraordinary threat” to U.S. national security and imposed unilateral sanctions. The recent appointment of Elliott Abrams by the Trump administration—a notorious human rights violator and war criminal—to coordinate the Venezuela destabilization operation further strips away any pretextual argument that the U.S. is concerned about democracy and human rights in Venezuela and instead shows how far the U.S. will go to implement its long-standing plans for regime change.The National Lawyers Guild recognizes the complexities of the situation in Venezuela and joins the concerns of other progressive leaders that there is a critical need for dialogue. We condemn the statement by Secretary of State Pompeo on January 24, 2019, that “the time for debate is over.” Our government has consistently stood in the way of any meaningful dialogue between the Bolivarian government and its opposition and continues to support the forces that promote violence and polarization. The NLG calls on our government to respect international law, to refrain from intervening (militarily, economically or politically) in the sovereign affairs of Venezuela and to allow for peaceful debate among all sectors of Venezuelan society to take place as determined by its people.
I'm sorry, but that's not a response to my statement you quoted. I don't have time this afternoon to read the whole statement or the background for myself, so no comment from me at this time.
STANV said:
So what? There was, in fact, fraud. Trump lost the popular vote and won the Electoral vote through the assistance of Russia and the "unusual" actions of Comey. His reign is iilegitimate.
Of course I know it's far fetched to think Pelosi could depose Trump but one can dream.
This is factually incorrect.
terp said:
STANV said:This is factually incorrect.
So what? There was, in fact, fraud. Trump lost the popular vote and won the Electoral vote through the assistance of Russia and the "unusual" actions of Comey. His reign is iilegitimate.
Of course I know it's far fetched to think Pelosi could depose Trump but one can dream.
What is incorrect?
The idea that Venezuela grossly mismanaged their economy into shambles and the US hurt them with sanctions, etc are not mutually exclusive ideas.
terp said:
The idea that Venezuela grossly mismanaged their economy into shambles and the US hurt them with sanctions, etc are not mutually exclusive ideas.
As I understand it, the US imposed sanctions on some individuals, for human rights violations. The sanctions weren't on the country as a whole. Oil from Venezuela still arrives in the US and is refined here, for example.
What I think that means is that the government in Venezuela is entirely responsible for its economic state.
terp said:
The idea that Venezuela grossly mismanaged their economy into shambles and the US hurt them with sanctions, etc are not mutually exclusive ideas.
Exactly. The government of Venezuela is entirely responsible for destroying the economy and precipitating a refugee crisis.
The debate should be about how we respond to the crisis. Unfortunately, I think the way Trump is responding is going to awaken memories of U.S. imperialism more than anything else. It quite sad given the fairly broad international support for change in Venezuela.
drummerboy said:
terp said:What is incorrect?
STANV said:This is factually incorrect.
So what? There was, in fact, fraud. Trump lost the popular vote and won the Electoral vote through the assistance of Russia and the "unusual" actions of Comey. His reign is iilegitimate.
Of course I know it's far fetched to think Pelosi could depose Trump but one can dream.
I'd like an answer.
Which of the following are factually incorrect.?
Trump lost the popular vote.
Trump won the Electoral vote by winning three crucial States by a total margin of a little over 70,000.00 votes
Russians interfered in the Election for the benefit of Trump.
Comey's last minute announcement of the re-opening of the investigation of Clinton's e-mails shifted votes away from Clinton in sufficient numbers to make a difference in the outcome.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:I'm sorry, but that's not a response to my statement you quoted. I don't have time this afternoon to read the whole statement or the background for myself, so no comment from me at this time.
nohero said:As an attorney, I thought you'd like to see the National Lawyers Guild legal analysis of Trump's "interference" in Venezuela. My bold:
Klinker said:I don't think anyone here is supporting intervention.
Can someone who supports US intervention please explain to me how the internal politics of Venezuela is, in any way, our concern?
https://www.nlg.org/nlg-statement-on-the-illegal-u-s-interference-in-the-bolivarian-republic-of-venezuela/
NLG Statement on the Illegal U.S. Interference in the Bolivarian Republic of VenezuelaPosted on January 29, 2019The National Lawyers Guild (NLG) is the oldest human rights bar association in the United States, with members in every state and a mission to value human rights and the rights of ecosystems over property interests. For more than a decade, the NLG International Committee has sent numerous delegations to Venezuela to observe nearly a dozen elections and research the electoral system, including meeting with lawyers and judges, community workers, union members, economists, journalists, government officials and opposition leaders.The statements of Vice-President Mike Pence and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo openly calling for democratically elected President Nicolas Maduro to be removed by a military and popular revolt harken back to the dark days of direct intervention in Latin America and make it clear that the U.S. is currently orchestrating a coup against the elected government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. The shocking aggression and illegal interference against a sovereign nation by the Trump administration is a blatant violation of the charters of the United Nations and Organization of American States, which recognize the principles of national sovereignty, peaceful settlement of disputes, and a prohibition on threatening or using force against the territory of another state.The contempt that this administration has shown for the norms and core values of international law has been apparent from threatening the use of force against other nations, withdrawing from the U.N. Human Rights Council and attempting to discredit U.N. independent experts. However, directly fomenting a coup in a sovereign nation is not only illegal and outright shunned by the international community, it fundamentally undermines any pretextual concern about interference by other nations in U.S. elections.Plots to overthrow the elected government in order to dismantle the regional economic, military, political and social alliances that have been established without the participation of the U.S. have been at the core of U.S. policy in Venezuela and the region since the election of former President Hugo Chávez. After unsuccessfully supporting a military coup against Chávez in 2002, U.S. administrations have consistently funded hard right opposition forces in their efforts to oust Chávez and reverse the people-centered Bolivarian Project. As recently as 2014, the U.S. supported violent street actions (guarimbas) planned and executed by the opposition. In 2015, President Obama declared Venezuela to be an “unusual and extraordinary threat” to U.S. national security and imposed unilateral sanctions. The recent appointment of Elliott Abrams by the Trump administration—a notorious human rights violator and war criminal—to coordinate the Venezuela destabilization operation further strips away any pretextual argument that the U.S. is concerned about democracy and human rights in Venezuela and instead shows how far the U.S. will go to implement its long-standing plans for regime change.The National Lawyers Guild recognizes the complexities of the situation in Venezuela and joins the concerns of other progressive leaders that there is a critical need for dialogue. We condemn the statement by Secretary of State Pompeo on January 24, 2019, that “the time for debate is over.” Our government has consistently stood in the way of any meaningful dialogue between the Bolivarian government and its opposition and continues to support the forces that promote violence and polarization. The NLG calls on our government to respect international law, to refrain from intervening (militarily, economically or politically) in the sovereign affairs of Venezuela and to allow for peaceful debate among all sectors of Venezuelan society to take place as determined by its people.
Okay, three thoughts:
1. You called it a "legal analysis", but that's not what it is. It's a statement of position, and there's no analysis of the legal positions of the parties in Venezuela.
2. They mention the election they sent 4 observers to in 2015. They don't indicate that they sent observers to the more recent elections, which resulted in the current situation. There's no comment on the recent elections.
3. They are correct in stating: "The National Lawyers Guild recognizes the complexities of the situation in Venezuela and joins the concerns of other progressive leaders that there is a critical need for dialogue. We condemn the statement by Secretary of State Pompeo on January 24, 2019, that 'the time for debate is over.' " However, if you look at their link, that's not a direct quote of Pompeo, it's a direct quote from someone describing something he attributes to Pompeo. But that's neither here nor there; the main point is that both sides in Venezuela have to resolve the situation (as the NLG correctly says, "to allow for peaceful debate among all sectors of Venezuelan society to take place as determined by its people"). Trump and his minions should stay out, or at the very least follow the lead of the neighboring countries who are trying to deal with the situation.
Here's an actual legal analysis (whether or not you agree with it): Guaidó, Not Maduro, Is the De Jure President of Venezuela
If Guaidó is clearly president under Venezuelan law, then recognition seems warranted here. Even setting aside the fact that Maduro’s kleptocratic rule has caused a humanitarian catastrophe, I believe that the best and most sensible reading of the Venezuelan Constitution leads to the conclusion that Juan Guaidó is now the interim president of Venezuela.
…
The present Venezuelan crisis began on Jan. 10, when Maduro was sworn in for a second term scheduled to end in 2025. Nobody seems to dispute that his first term ended that day, in accordance with Articles 230 and 231 of the Venezuelan Constitution. The relevant question is whether Maduro was in fact reelected and legally president after Jan. 10.
Any plausible reading of the constitution shows that Maduro was not reelected and, indeed, that there has been no election at all for the term beginning Jan. 10. Article 293 governs the process for calling and organizing new presidential elections, delegating to the National Electoral Council control over the process. Members of that body are nominated through a complicated scheme that gives significant power to the National Assembly, the country’s unicameral legislature, under Article 296. To Maduro’s chagrin, however, the National Assembly has been under opposition control since 2015.
In an attempt to circumvent the National Assembly, Maduro created a parallel legislature under Articles 347 and 348. These provisions, however, were meant solely to call for a constitutional convention and required a national referendum (like the one in 1999). Knowing that a popular vote would defeat his proposal, Maduro concocted an “electoral” process that would ensure every member of that alternate assembly would be under his control. That entire process was outside of the constitutional structure and violated the procedures prescribed by Article 347 and Venezuelan law. Under any sensible reading of the constitution, there was no basis for a parallel legislature nor the process by which it was staffed.
Here’s the key connection between that parallel body and the Venezuelan presidential elections: In 2018, the unconstitutional assembly called for, and organized, a presidential election—in direct violation of the constitution. The alternate assembly sidelined the actual National Assembly’s role, staffed the National Electoral Council with Maduro loyalists, and ensured another “election” that would keep Maduro in power.
These facts, along with the process set out in the Venezuelan Constitution, leads to that particular expert's conclusion:
"Taking all of this together, and in light of the vacancy of the presidency on Jan. 10, Juan Guaidó fulfilled his constitutional role as president of the National Assembly and assumed on an interim basis the presidency of Venezuela on Jan. 23."
By the way, Tulsi has no problem siding with other despots who take power in a coup. For example, she traveled to Egypt in 2015 with (now former) Rep. Dana Rohrabacher. She has a press release and pictures about it.
“We had a lengthy, candid discussion with President el-Sisi about how important Egypt’s stability and success is for the region and for the world. He would like to strengthen and restore U.S.-Egypt relations so that we may work together urgently to ‘decimate’ ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups who pose a threat to us and to the world,” said Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. “The recent attacks in Paris and Mali are just two examples of the devastation these groups have caused. President el-Sisi has shown great courage and leadership in taking on this extreme Islamist ideology, while also fighting against ISIS militarily to keep them from gaining a foothold in Egypt. The U.S. must take action to recognize President el-Sisi and his leadership, support Egypt’s progress and stability, and stand with him in this fight against ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other Islamic extremists who are our common enemy.”
(Emphasis in original)
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I don't think anyone here is supporting intervention.