Tulsi Gabbard: Trump Stay Out of Venezuela
This is one of the main reasons for the Trump coup attempt:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-citgo/refiner-citgo-prepares-to-fend-off-venezuelas-opposition-government-idUSKCN1PJ2EL
paulsurovell said:
This is one of the main reasons for the Trump coup attempt:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-citgo/refiner-citgo-prepares-to-fend-off-venezuelas-opposition-government-idUSKCN1PJ2EL
And Tulsi has the integrity, the guts and the leadership qualities to call it what it is:
paulsurovell said:
This is not a joke:
Elliott Abrams has been appointed to head Trump's operation to "restore democracy (sic) in Venezuela"
https://twitter.com/ReutersVzla/status/1088914708202176512
Abrams was convicted of withholding information from Congress about the Iran–Contra affair while serving under Reagan, but was pardoned by President George H. W. Bush.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_Abrams
What could possibly go wrong?!?!?
Tulsi states her opposition to the Trump-Bolton-Abrams coup attempt in Venezuela in terms of international law. None of the other announced candidates has the integrity or the courage to even raise questions about this travesty.
When is it reasonable for one nation to get involved in the internal affairs of another nation? What if that nation is committing genocide? What if that nation is so mismanaging affairs that it is creating a refugee crisis?
tjohn said:
When is it reasonable for one nation to get involved in the internal affairs of another nation? What if that nation is committing genocide? What if that nation is so mismanaging affairs that it is creating a refugee crisis?
In an ideal World an international organization such as the UN would handle it.
LOST said:
tjohn said:In an ideal World an international organization such as the UN would handle it.
When is it reasonable for one nation to get involved in the internal affairs of another nation? What if that nation is committing genocide? What if that nation is so mismanaging affairs that it is creating a refugee crisis?
Power politics aside, when do you intervene?
paulsurovell said:
Tulsi states her opposition to the Trump-Bolton-Abrams coup attempt in Venezuela in terms of international law. None of the other announced candidates has the integrity or the courage to even raise questions about this travesty.
https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1091336707004198912
Where's is Tulsi's official quote on Venezuela? Or is quoting someone else the equivalent of what you would say?
paulsurovell said:
Tulsi states her opposition to the Trump-Bolton-Abrams coup attempt in Venezuela in terms of international law. None of the other announced candidates has the integrity or the courage to even raise questions about this travesty.
https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1091336707004198912
Here's an article from two days before, surveying candidates and potential candidates on the subject.
Where Democratic Presidential Contenders Stand On The Venezuelan Crisis
They have some common elements (no military involvement, for example), and Tulsi's position doesn't stand out as much different.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:Here's an article from two days before, surveying candidates and potential candidates on the subject.
Tulsi states her opposition to the Trump-Bolton-Abrams coup attempt in Venezuela in terms of international law. None of the other announced candidates has the integrity or the courage to even raise questions about this travesty.
https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1091336707004198912
Where Democratic Presidential Contenders Stand On The Venezuelan Crisis
They have some common elements (no military involvement, for example), and Tulsi's position doesn't stand out as much different.
What are you smoking? Tulsi's direct, non-qualifying,position on Venezuela is radically different than all other candidates. The rest are either all on board or sorta kinda not in the mood for sending in the troops. Bernie is the only other one who spoke out against regime change.
So they are not speaking out against regime change and they are not calling this out for being about oil, not human rights? Here's Tulsi"
Tulsi's clear, principled reaction to Trump's trashing of the INF treaty:
Nan, did you even read the link Nohero posted before your personal attack?
paulsurovell said:
Tulsi's clear, principled reaction to Trump's trashing of the INF treaty:
https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1091480113483374595
no duh. lol - I think 2/3s of the nation could have written that tweet.
dave said:
Nan, did you even read the link Nohero posted before your personal attack?
I sure did.
nan said:
dave said:I sure did.
Nan, did you even read the link Nohero posted before your personal attack?
Explain how Warren's position isn't substantially the same as Gabbard's.
Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.): Opposes sanctions and military intervention.
Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), who has announced her plans to run for president, expressed a similar sentiment to Brown, but she condemned an escalation of sanctions as well.
“The Venezuelan people deserve free and fair elections, an economy that works, and the ability to live without fear of violence from their own government,” she said. “Instead of reckless threats of military action or sanctions that hurt those in need, we should be taking real steps to support the Venezuelan people.”
LOST said:
nan said:Explain how Warren's position isn't substantially the same as Gabbard's.
dave said:I sure did.
Nan, did you even read the link Nohero posted before your personal attack?
Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.): Opposes sanctions and military intervention.
Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), who has announced her plans to run for president, expressed a similar sentiment to Brown, but she condemned an escalation of sanctions as well.
“The Venezuelan people deserve free and fair elections, an economy that works, and the ability to live without fear of violence from their own government,” she said. “Instead of reckless threats of military action or sanctions that hurt those in need, we should be taking real steps to support the Venezuelan people.”
She's not saying she's opposed to regime change. Her comments on the election sound as though she thinks the election was not fair that the violence is coming from the government. She sounds critical of the government, not the US. She makes it sound like the people don't support the government and many do (they don't show the pro-government rallies on the news). She makes no reference to oil being the goal.
It's good she opposes the sanctions though-- she gets points for that. But, her statement is nothing like Gabbard's.
Tulsi uses buzzwords like "coup" and "oil". I'm not even sure she comes out and says she supports Maduro (like he's some kind of Latin American Bashir Assad).
Others, like Warren, recognize that there's an opposition there who has declared, under Venezuelan law, that Maduro is no longer President. That's why they recognize that there are calls for a new election, and that some sort of change in government is under way.
nohero said:
Tulsi uses buzzwords like "coup" and "oil". I'm not even sure she comes out and says she supports Maduro (like he's some kind of Latin American Bashir Assad).
Others, like Warren, recognize that there's an opposition there who has declared, under Venezuelan law, that Maduro is no longer President. That's why they recognize that there are calls for a new election, and that some sort of change in government is under way.
Here is John Bolton using the oil "buzzword" and demonstrating that your buzzwords are really root causes.
Sen. Warren was addressing the situation in Venezuela.
Congressperson Gabbard was addressing John Bolton.
Both have a point.
If you don't have anything better to do, here's a link to an article which explains why Venezuela's oil industry was decimated by the policies of Chavez and Maduro.
"How Venezuela Struck it Poor"
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/16/how-venezuela-struck-it-poor-oil-energy-chavez/
"The only way Venezuela, which is broke and stripped of talent, can possibly fix its oil industry today is by relying more on foreign companies. Even if they were given a free hand, however, it’s not clear that international firms could turn things around anytime soon; the lack of investment in recent years hasn’t helped the health of Venezuela’s oil fields. “If you messed up the reservoir by overproducing or underinvesting, then you just can’t pick up where you left off,” the international oil company executive said. “They’ve probably done some long-term damage to the reservoirs.”
But Caracas seems unwilling to even test the proposition and continues doing everything it can to alienate the very businesses it needs so badly. In April, for example, government agents arrested two Chevron executives who reportedly refused to cooperate in overbilling for oil supplies. The two were held for months while facing possible treason charges, which carry a prison sentence of up to 30 years."
nan said:
nohero said:Here is John Bolton using the oil "buzzword" and demonstrating that your buzzwords are really root causes.
Tulsi uses buzzwords like "coup" and "oil". I'm not even sure she comes out and says she supports Maduro (like he's some kind of Latin American Bashir Assad).
Others, like Warren, recognize that there's an opposition there who has declared, under Venezuelan law, that Maduro is no longer President. That's why they recognize that there are calls for a new election, and that some sort of change in government is under way.
Oil is the root cause, but not because Bolton said the word. Lower oil prices and the collapse of the Venezuelan economy as a result (long before Trump and Bolton were in government) produced the unrest.
I refer to the word "oil" as a buzzword, because it's used to claim that the United States is causing the unrest for the benefit of oil companies. I was responding to your critique of Warren: "She makes no reference to oil being the goal."
So "oil being the goal" and "coup" are the magic words, if that clarifies things. And they are magic words, because unless a candidate uses those words like Tulsi has, people to write stupid statements about them like "None of the other announced candidates has the integrity or the courage to even raise questions about this travesty."
cramer said:
If you don't have anything better to do, here's a link to an article which explains why Venezuela's oil industry was decimated by the policies of Chavez and Maduro.
"How Venezuela Struck it Poor"
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/16/how-venezuela-struck-it-poor-oil-energy-chavez/
"The only way Venezuela, which is broke and stripped of talent, can possibly fix its oil industry today is by relying more on foreign companies. Even if they were given a free hand, however, it’s not clear that international firms could turn things around anytime soon; the lack of investment in recent years hasn’t helped the health of Venezuela’s oil fields. “If you messed up the reservoir by overproducing or underinvesting, then you just can’t pick up where you left off,” the international oil company executive said. “They’ve probably done some long-term damage to the reservoirs.”
But Caracas seems unwilling to even test the proposition and continues doing everything it can to alienate the very businesses it needs so badly. In April, for example, government agents arrested two Chevron executives who reportedly refused to cooperate in overbilling for oil supplies. The two were held for months while facing possible treason charges, which carry a prison sentence of up to 30 years."
And here's a critique of MSM presentation of the crisis in Venequela, which shows how we really can't know how that place could be run because it's always been run with US sanctions.
LOST said:
Sen. Warren was addressing the situation in Venezuela.
Congressperson Gabbard was addressing John Bolton.
Both have a point.
Both have a point related to Venequela.
nan said:
And here's a critique of MSM presentation of the crisis in Venequela, which shows how we really can't know how that place could be run because it's always been run with US sanctions.
Did you read the article from Foreign Policy? That's the only source that I referred to.
eta - Media Bias/Fact Check considers Foreign Policy least biased and Factual Reporting High.
nohero said:
nan said:Oil is the root cause, but not because Bolton said the word. Lower oil prices and the collapse of the Venezuelan economy as a result (long before Trump and Bolton were in government) produced the unrest.
nohero said:Here is John Bolton using the oil "buzzword" and demonstrating that your buzzwords are really root causes.
Tulsi uses buzzwords like "coup" and "oil". I'm not even sure she comes out and says she supports Maduro (like he's some kind of Latin American Bashir Assad).
Others, like Warren, recognize that there's an opposition there who has declared, under Venezuelan law, that Maduro is no longer President. That's why they recognize that there are calls for a new election, and that some sort of change in government is under way.
I refer to the word "oil" as a buzzword, because it's used to claim that the United States is causing the unrest for the benefit of oil companies. I was responding to your critique of Warren: "She makes no reference to oil being the goal."
So "oil being the goal" and "coup" are the magic words, if that clarifies things. And they are magic words, because unless a candidate uses those words like Tulsi has, people to write stupid statements about them like "None of the other announced candidates has the integrity or the courage to even raise questions about this travesty."
The big problem in Venezuela has been US interference. They are the ones putting sanctions in place that caused economic problems and unrest. They are the ones trying to undermine the Democratically elected government. What business do we have getting involved over there? They are not part of the US. You seem to believe the BS spouted by the mainstream news. But of course, you think the CIA is a force for good, not evil. They don't even show the pro-government rallies, which are huge. You are too old to fall for this crap once again--have you not seen what has happened in South America over and over? Do you not notice a pattern? So glad Tulsi Gabbard has the courage to speak out directly on what is going on. of course she will be skewered mercilessly for doing that, but she did the right thing.
nan said:
The big problem in Venezuela has been US interference. They are the ones putting sanctions in place that caused economic problems and unrest. They are the ones trying to undermine the Democratically elected government. What business do we have getting involved over there? They are not part of the US. You seem to believe the BS spouted by the mainstream news. But of course, you think the CIA is a force for good, not evil. They don't even show the pro-government rallies, which are huge. You are too old to fall for this crap once again--have you not seen what has happened in South America over and over? Do you not notice a pattern? So glad Tulsi Gabbard has the courage to speak out directly on what is going on. of course she will be skewered mercilessly for doing that, but she did the right thing.
It's absolutely stunning how much hatred you have for your country ! There seems to be NOTHING about the USA that you find acceptable. What a shame.
nan said:The big problem in Venezuela has been US interference. They are the ones putting sanctions in place that caused economic problems and unrest. They are the ones trying to undermine the Democratically elected government. What business do we have getting involved over there? They are not part of the US. You seem to believe the BS spouted by the mainstream news. But of course, you think the CIA is a force for good, not evil. They don't even show the pro-government rallies, which are huge. You are too old to fall for this crap once again--have you not seen what has happened in South America over and over? Do you not notice a pattern? So glad Tulsi Gabbard has the courage to speak out directly on what is going on. of course she will be skewered mercilessly for doing that, but she did the right thing.
The big problem in Venezuela is the oil market and how the country has been run. It has nothing to do with U.S. sanctions or undermining the government. Arguably, Maduro undermined the democratically-elected government via his machinations, which resulted in the election considered invalid by neighboring countries in South America.
And since those neighboring countries know "what has happened in South America over and over", I suggest that we follow their lead. And their lead is not to support Maduro.
The Lima group of Latin American countries plus Canada issued a statement on Monday saying it did not recognize the legitimacy of Venezuela’s presidential election, which was held the day before amid criticism over alleged irregularities.
The Lima Group includes Peru, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, Santa Lucia, Canada, Colombia, Honduras, Costa Rica and Guatemala.
The statement said the countries would call their ambassadors back from Caracas for consultations and hold a meeting to coordinate a regional response to outflows of Venezuelans “who have been obligated to abandon their country”.
Venezuela’s leftist leader Nicolas Maduro won a new six-year term in the vote, but his main rivals disavowed the election alleging massive irregularities in a process critics decried as a farce propping up a dictatorship.
And I'm old enough to read the news, and not believe bull caca that has no factual basis, such as the story line you think is true.
Dennis_Seelbach said:
nan said:It's absolutely stunning how much hatred you have for your country ! There seems to be NOTHING about the USA that you find acceptable. What a shame.
The big problem in Venezuela has been US interference. They are the ones putting sanctions in place that caused economic problems and unrest. They are the ones trying to undermine the Democratically elected government. What business do we have getting involved over there? They are not part of the US. You seem to believe the BS spouted by the mainstream news. But of course, you think the CIA is a force for good, not evil. They don't even show the pro-government rallies, which are huge. You are too old to fall for this crap once again--have you not seen what has happened in South America over and over? Do you not notice a pattern? So glad Tulsi Gabbard has the courage to speak out directly on what is going on. of course she will be skewered mercilessly for doing that, but she did the right thing.
What does the fact that the US is doing a coup in Venezuela have to do with my feelings for the US?
Can someone who supports US intervention please explain to me how the internal politics of Venezuela is, in any way, our concern?
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This is not a joke:
Elliott Abrams has been appointed to head Trump's operation to "restore democracy (sic) in Venezuela"
https://twitter.com/ReutersVzla/status/1088914708202176512
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_Abrams