The mass shooting today.
sprout said:
I'm unclear why a shotgun would be a first choice for one to use for self-defense? Wouldn't a handgun tend to work better? I've used shotguns for skeet, and the bulky length, the kick, and the less targeted scattershot don't seem optimal to deal with an intruder if they are inside (or near) your suburban house.
Shotgun has the ability to shoot various types of shells. For example some shells contain many tiny BBs which is used for hunting birds or trap shooting (called #8 shot). While for deer hunting, the deer hunter is required to use many fewer projectiles (but much larger and heavier projectiles) which is called buckshot. Bird-shot is much more easily stopped by drywall and plywood than a single, heavy projectile. Thus, making a shotgun with bird-shot safer. As you are significantly less likely to have the projectile inadvertently pass through a wall and kill/injure relative or neighbor.
Jaytee said:
ml1 said:
I'm still trying to figure out what circumstances would allow time to hide in a closet and grab and arm a shotgun but not enough time to dial 911
The reality is…. He’s full of it.
Clearly, you dislike me. Sorry to hear/sense that.
Just remember, nothing good can be accomplished with hate. Peace be with you.
RFA, part of self-defence training for women included what to do if confronted with a gun, or a knife, as well as ‘just’ a mugger/would-be rapist. Important close-range lessons include protect your throat (dip your chin, bite his wrists, gouge his eyes/beat his ears, knee his groin, stomp his ankle); if you’re on your back, buck him off; if you have a pen or keys, stab hard. Any of those strategies would result in a dropped weapon - most people are too scared to use the weapons properly and don’t expect you (esp women) to fight back.
if you’re making noise as well - screaming, yelling, even singing loud AC/DC lyrics - it’s even more confusing and unexpected, and slows down their reactions.
Everyone, TEACH YOUR DAUGHTERS TO FIGHT BACK. You don’t need guns, just lungs.
RealityForAll said:
As a result, from my perspective to very different breeds of cat.
Yes, we agree on this then.
RealityForAll said:
Agreed as to being responsible with firearms. Tough part is that different places, different decades and different zeitgeist results in different conclusions as to what is the definition of responsible.
But seem to be disagreeing here.
It is true that there is a lot of cultural diversity in our county. On the topic of guns and gun violence in particular, I thought this was an interesting article:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/23/surprising-geography-of-gun-violence-00092413
An interesting premise, though one I think it's worth being skeptical about. Culture, and differences in culture, are real, but it's also easy to make too much of them and fall into a sort of cultural essentialism. Still, the idea of different settlement patterns leading to differences that persist today is an interesting one, and one I've come across before.
But that's a bit of a tangent. To your point, I rather disagree, as even while we make allowance for diversity in attitudes, we are still one country, and some behaviors should simply be beyond the pale. Furthermore, the firearm extremists increasingly have the ear of the Supreme Court, so that even states like ours where the majority of people support common sense, responsible gun ownership the extremists are working hard, with worrying success, to making it harder and harder for our communities to regulate guns in a safe and responsible manner. Stand your ground laws are just one example of the type of objectively bad and irresponsible laws pushed by gun fetishists who reject accountability and responsibility. As you noted, they're a far cry from the approach to firearms you yourself take.
RealityForAll said:
2A is a fundamental right under our Constitution. Are there any fundamental rights that you are insistent upon?
If so why?
The right of a conditional clause (for example, “A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State”) to govern the meaning of the rest of a sentence is one.
Why? Because it makes grammatical sense and furthers the aims of clear communication.
To my point, which you evaded: Yes, it’s a bias I carry into discussions.
Still hanging: How did the WaPo article that PVW posted and his comment sensationalize that shooting?
RealityForAll said:
I was attempting to share information. My intention on information sharing is to understand in my shell storage.
Further, please understand that the term "loaded firearm" involves a spectrum of situations. Such as: i.) shell in the firing chamber; ii.) shell(s) in detachable magazine NOT inserted in firearm but stored adjacent to firearm; iii.) shell(s) in detachable magazine inserted in firearm;; iv.) shell(s) inserted in permanently attached magazine but NO shells in firing chamber (the situation with my Remington 870 shotgun in the home invasion). The list above is not exhaustive but provided merely for some examples. I could go on with more examples but it gets tedious.
A gun with "shell(s) inserted in permanently attached magazine but NO shells in firing chamber (the situation with my Remington 870 shotgun in the home invasion)" is a loaded gun.
DaveSchmidt said:
RealityForAll said:
2A is a fundamental right under our Constitution. Are there any fundamental rights that you are insistent upon?
If so why?
The right of a conditional clause (for example, “A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State”) to govern the meaning of the rest of a sentence is one.
Why? Because it makes grammatical sense and furthers the aims of clear communication.
To my point, which you evaded: Yes, it’s a bias I carry into discussions.
Still hanging: How did the WaPo article that PVW posted and his comment sensationalize that shooting?
What is your basis for alleging that the first clause is conditional? You have listed grammatical sense ( is that your authority/basis for this interpretation?).
My recollection is that the opinion in DC v Heller stated that the clause was prefatory. I will check on this and get back to you.
My recollection is that I posted a link to the ABC reporting on the insta-cart shooting. This reporting omitted a number of allegations (set forth in more detail upstream on this thread). Finally, my recollection is that the WaPo link was behind a paywall.
nohero said:
RealityForAll said:
I was attempting to share information. My intention on information sharing is to understand in my shell storage.
Further, please understand that the term "loaded firearm" involves a spectrum of situations. Such as: i.) shell in the firing chamber; ii.) shell(s) in detachable magazine NOT inserted in firearm but stored adjacent to firearm; iii.) shell(s) in detachable magazine inserted in firearm;; iv.) shell(s) inserted in permanently attached magazine but NO shells in firing chamber (the situation with my Remington 870 shotgun in the home invasion). The list above is not exhaustive but provided merely for some examples. I could go on with more examples but it gets tedious.
A gun with "shell(s) inserted in permanently attached magazine but NO shells in firing chamber (the situation with my Remington 870 shotgun in the home invasion)" is a loaded gun.
It is an expansive definition of loaded. Historically, a firearm with a shell in the chamber was considered loaded. Not the case, in my instance. Shells in tubular magazine cannot be fired without several steps before firing. Hence, the reason that I previously stated the term "loaded" has been expanded so much that we now have a variety of situations where the firearm can be defined as "loaded" but not ready to fire without multiple steps prior to firing.
RealityForAll said:
nohero said:
A gun with "shell(s) inserted in permanently attached magazine but NO shells in firing chamber (the situation with my Remington 870 shotgun in the home invasion)" is a loaded gun.
It is an expansive definition of loaded. Historically, a firearm with a shell in the chamber was considered loaded. Not the case, in my instance. Shells in tubular magazine cannot be fired without several steps before firing. Hence, the reason that I previously stated the term "loaded" has been expanded so much that we now have a variety of situations where the firearm can be defined as "loaded" but not ready to fire without multiple steps prior to firing.
It's not "an expansive definition of loaded", especially if we're following the guidance of the Boy Scouts of America.
"ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use. Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible. If the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s), which should be clear of ammunition."
"Know how to use the gun safely. Before handling a gun, learn how it operates. Know its basic parts, how to safely open and close the action, and how to remove any ammunition from the gun or magazine. Remember, a gun’s mechanical safety device is never foolproof. Nothing can ever replace safe gun handling"
"Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons."
Rules for Safe Gun Handling - Troop Leader Resources (scouting.org)
It’s time to divorce the NRA from the BSA. Kids shooting guns was one of the reasons I took my boys out of the Boy Scouts. I’m not supporting that insanity.
RealityForAll said:
What is your basis for alleging that the first clause is conditional? You have listed grammatical sense ( is that your authority/basis for this interpretation?).
My recollection is that the opinion in DC v Heller stated that the clause was prefatory. I will check on this and get back to you.
My recollection is that I posted a link to the ABC reporting on the insta-cart shooting. This reporting omitted a number of allegations (set forth in more detail upstream on this thread). Finally, my recollection is that the WaPo link was behind a paywall.
I’m not going to debate either the Second Amendment or grammar with you.
I was (and still am) able to read the WaPo article without a subscription. If it and the local report you linked to are missing “a number of allegations” that have been set forth here (both give the shooter’s version and the police decision), I’d need a number of specific examples to understand your sensationalism claim.
Jaytee said:
It’s time to divorce the NRA from the BSA. Kids shooting guns was one of the reasons I took my boys out of the Boy Scouts. I’m not supporting that insanity.
As you would expect, I disagree. You describe Scouts (FKA BSA or Boy Scouts) as "[k]ids shooting guns." Your narrative fails to acknowledge the factthat scouting educates kids about firearms generally, how to determine if a firearm is loaded and overall general firearms safety. My expectation is that such education prevents deaths and injury (that would have occurred absent Scouts firearms education). I would hope that you can appreciate that firearms education saves lives.
RealityForAll said:
As you would expect, I disagree. You describe Scouts (FKA BSA or Boy Scouts) as "[k]ids shooting guns." Your narrative fails to acknowledge the factthat scouting educates kids about firearms generally, how to determine if a firearm is loaded and overall general firearms safety. My expectation is that such education prevents deaths and injury (that would have occurred absent Scouts firearms education). I would hope that you can appreciate that firearms education saves lives.
Irony.
Jaytee said:
It’s time to divorce the NRA from the BSA. Kids shooting guns was one of the reasons I took my boys out of the Boy Scouts. I’m not supporting that insanity.
Anything my son, or the other scouts I know of, learned about firearms involved safety and treating them as dangerous tools and not toys.
RealityForAll said:
It is an expansive definition of loaded. Historically, a firearm with a shell in the chamber was considered loaded. Not the case, in my instance. Shells in tubular magazine cannot be fired without several steps before firing. Hence, the reason that I previously stated the term "loaded" has been expanded so much that we now have a variety of situations where the firearm can be defined as "loaded" but not ready to fire without multiple steps prior to firing.
Once again, as you explained, the "several steps" from not-loaded to loaded took you a "split second."
unless an invader is himself armed, it would be just as easy to run him off by pulling a golf club, hockey stick, baseball bat or Fender Telecaster out of the closet instead of a gun.
ridski said:
RealityForAll said:
It is an expansive definition of loaded. Historically, a firearm with a shell in the chamber was considered loaded. Not the case, in my instance. Shells in tubular magazine cannot be fired without several steps before firing. Hence, the reason that I previously stated the term "loaded" has been expanded so much that we now have a variety of situations where the firearm can be defined as "loaded" but not ready to fire without multiple steps prior to firing.
Once again, as you explained, the "several steps" from not-loaded to loaded took you a "split second."
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber involve more steps?
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber be more arduous and therefore take more time?
ml1 said:
unless an invader is himself armed, it would be just as easy to run him off by pulling a golf club, hockey stick, baseball bat or Fender Telecaster out of the closet instead of a gun.
If you are more comfortable with a "golf club, hockey stick, baseball bat or Fender Telecaster", then more power to you.
PS I will stick with my setup for now.
PPS Would you consider arming MPD, or SOPD. with a
"golf club, hockey stick, baseball bat or Fender Telecaster" (in lieu of firearms)?
RealityForAll said:
ml1 said:
unless an invader is himself armed, it would be just as easy to run him off by pulling a golf club, hockey stick, baseball bat or Fender Telecaster out of the closet instead of a gun.
If you are more comfortable with a "golf club, hockey stick, baseball bat or Fender Telecaster", then more power to you.
I am. To my knowledge nobody has ever accidentally killed anyone with any of those items. It would take intent and effort to do so.
Or picked one up to commit suicide for that matter.
RealityForAll said:
ml1 said:
unless an invader is himself armed, it would be just as easy to run him off by pulling a golf club, hockey stick, baseball bat or Fender Telecaster out of the closet instead of a gun.
If you are more comfortable with a "golf club, hockey stick, baseball bat or Fender Telecaster", then more power to you.
PS I will stick with my setup for now.
PPS Would you consider arming MPD, or SOPD. with a
"golf club, hockey stick, baseball bat or Fender Telecaster" (in lieu of firearms)?
several pages back I noted that I don't feel the need to own a firearm because the police have them. So I think that answers your silly question.
RealityForAll said:
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber involve more steps?
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber be more arduous and therefore take more time?
Well you said there were several steps before you could fire the weapon. What are you classing as "several steps"? Rack the pump, lift to your shoulder, disengage the safety, pull the trigger. That's 4 steps to firing. Is that your "several"? I don't even know if you have the safety engaged when it's in the closet, so it could be 3. Heck, you don't stipulate that you're even aiming the weapon, so it could just be 1) chamber a shell, 2) pull the trigger and hope you don't hit your foot.
But you didn't mention any other steps than the first one, so that's all I had to go on.
ridski said:
RealityForAll said:
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber involve more steps?
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber be more arduous and therefore take more time?
Well you said there were several steps before you could fire the weapon. What are you classing as "several steps"? Rack the pump, lift to your shoulder, disengage the safety, pull the trigger. That's 4 steps to firing. Is that your "several"? I don't even know if you have the safety engaged when it's in the closet, so it could be 3. Heck, you don't stipulate that you're even aiming the weapon, so it could just be 1) chamber a shell, 2) pull the trigger and hope you don't hit your foot.
But you didn't mention any other steps than the first one, so that's all I had to go on.
no matter how many steps it is, if the intruder entered while the residents were asleep and found the weapon, he could arm himself and confront the homeowner with a loaded gun.
My understanding is that best practice for storing a weapon is to keep the ammunition in a separate place. I get that it's then useless for defense in most cases. But that's one of the conundrums of gun ownership isn't it? If you want to be safest from firearm accidents, you can't be ready as quickly to grab your gun to confront an intruder.
and not for nothing, but in RFA's case, if the intruder entered through a different door or window and was between him and his closet, what good was the shotgun in that instance? Really, if one is going to have a gun for defense of one's home, the only foolproof method is to carry it all the time, and be ready to use it.
just don't accidentally shoot your spouse, or the letter carrier, or the neighbor's dog if one of them startles you.
ridski said:
RealityForAll said:
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber involve more steps?
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber be more arduous and therefore take more time?
Well you said there were several steps before you could fire the weapon. What are you classing as "several steps"? Rack the pump, lift to your shoulder, disengage the safety, pull the trigger. That's 4 steps to firing. Is that your "several"? I don't even know if you have the safety engaged when it's in the closet, so it could be 3. Heck, you don't stipulate that you're even aiming the weapon, so it could just be 1) chamber a shell, 2) pull the trigger and hope you don't hit your foot.
But you didn't mention any other steps than the first one, so that's all I had to go on.
You almost got the steps. You missed a couple steps. Most important step missed was actuating the slide release.
Stored in a manner consistent with NJ law. Best practices for storing a home defense firearm is different than best practices for storage of target or hunting firearms. Different issues and goals result in different safety standards. So be it - invasion thwarted and no shots fired.
RealityForAll said:
ridski said:
RealityForAll said:
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber involve more steps?
Would you prefer that the process of transferring a shell from the tubular magazine to the firing chamber be more arduous and therefore take more time?
Well you said there were several steps before you could fire the weapon. What are you classing as "several steps"? Rack the pump, lift to your shoulder, disengage the safety, pull the trigger. That's 4 steps to firing. Is that your "several"? I don't even know if you have the safety engaged when it's in the closet, so it could be 3. Heck, you don't stipulate that you're even aiming the weapon, so it could just be 1) chamber a shell, 2) pull the trigger and hope you don't hit your foot.
But you didn't mention any other steps than the first one, so that's all I had to go on.
You almost got the steps. You missed a couple steps. Most important step missed was actuating the slide release.
Stored in a manner consistent with NJ law. Best practices for storing a home defense firearm is different than best practices for storage of target or hunting firearms. Different issues and goals result in different safety standards. So be it - invasion thwarted and no shots fired.
Ah yes. But you can't move the pump of an unfired shotgun without pressing the slide release button so I sort of combined those two.
As for storage, I presume you're following all the guidelines, I don't think I've made any points about the storage of your weapon.
Just for everyone else, here's what we're talking about. He's taking his time to show you how everything functions, which is why it takes 30 seconds from him starting to rack the first shell to saying "now you're ready to pull the trigger."
RealityForAll said:
Stored in a manner consistent with NJ law. Best practices for storing a home defense firearm is different than best practices for storage of target or hunting firearms. Different issues and goals result in different safety standards. So be it - invasion thwarted and no shots fired.
A loaded gun left unattended in an unlocked location. What "best practices" being referenced is not clear.
{thinks: I have no idea how we all manage to sleep at night, and move around so easily during the day here in Australia, when life is so complex in the Land of the Free}
joanne said:
{thinks: I have no idea how we all manage to sleep at night, and move around so easily during the day here in Australia, when life is so complex in the Land of the Free}
Sleep? That's what the fentanyl is for.
I still can’t get used to our police wearing guns 
They didn’t need them for everyday duty, until about 15-20 years ago, then some bright spark consultant decided it looked more ‘professional’ …
ridski said:
Sleep? That's what the fentanyl is for.
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My understanding is that plug is primarily required for hunting. When hunting, the hunter is typically limited to shells in the magazine and one shell in the chamber. Despite the Remington 870 shotgun's tubular magazine being capable of four shells absent the plug. My understanding is that NJ generally limits magazine's to ten shells.