The Iran Deal Thread
Red_Barchetta said:You have exerted more effort on this thread defending the President than he has in initiating the relocation.
That's because Trump did it because Adelson told him too. Trump hasn't the slightest idea in the significance of the move.
BCC said:
gerritn said:I suggest you and yahoo read up on the history of Hamas. Their condition today is of their own making, not Israel's and they are not listed as a terrorist organization by the US and EU.for no reason.
BCC said:Hmm. Gaza is basically a concentration camp. So I guess you can then write nuanced stories about how bad things happen on both sides, which I am sure are all true, but that kind of misses the bigger point.
LOST said:Certainly better than the BS we get from the MSM.
cramer said:Thank you for the link. The article may be the only even-handed thing I have read on the subject.
13 Inconvenient Truths About What Has Been Happening in Gaza
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/262329/gaza-media-explainer
Ah. "Hamas" and "Gaza" are not the same thing. Just like "Trump White House" and "the American people" are not the same thing. You don't expect all american people to go to jail just because Trump is a crook, so how come Gaza collectively live in a concentration camp just because Hamas are terrorists?
gerritn said:
BCC said:Ah. "Hamas" and "Gaza" are not the same thing. Just like "Trump White House" and "the American people" are not the same thing. You don't expect all american people to go to jail just because Trump is a crook, so how come Gaza collectively live in a concentration camp just because Hamas are terrorists?
gerritn said:I suggest you and yahoo read up on the history of Hamas. Their condition today is of their own making, not Israel's and they are not listed as a terrorist organization by the US and EU.for no reason.
BCC said:Hmm. Gaza is basically a concentration camp. So I guess you can then write nuanced stories about how bad things happen on both sides, which I am sure are all true, but that kind of misses the bigger point.
LOST said:Certainly better than the BS we get from the MSM.
cramer said:Thank you for the link. The article may be the only even-handed thing I have read on the subject.
13 Inconvenient Truths About What Has Been Happening in Gaza
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/262329/gaza-media-explainer
Ah, Hamas runs Gaza with an iron fist and the people have nothing to say about what it does. There is no opposition party, they got thrown off rooftops years ago.
And you still have no idea how this whole thing started and why Israel and Egypt have blockades in place.
dave23 said:
BCC said:Trump was the first among them to *promise* to move the embassy. All the others recognized Jerusalem as the capital--which some interpreted to mean we'd move the embassy there. But, yes, the embassy is there. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to hasten peace in the region. (I also don't think it's the tragedy that some people think it is.)In contrast, President Trump made a promise during his campaign in 2016 to “move the American embassy to the eternal capital of the Jewish people, Jerusalem.”
I pretty much agree with your last sentence, but as to the others, I think there is some nit picking going on.
Red_Barchetta said:
BCC said:You have exerted more effort on this thread defending the President than he has in initiating the relocation.
Red_Barchetta said:
BCC said:You say that like it’s an accomplishment. Like Trump studied and consulted experts and considered the ramifications. Like he worked harder than other Presidents. Even you know this is not true. All it took for him was the stroke of a pen. 50+ Palestinians dead? Not his problem, they don’t vote. Derailment of the peace process? That’s a concern for another day or another President.
dave23 said:
BCC said:On Wednesday, Guatemala followed the U.S. lead, festively opening its new Jerusalem mission with Guatemalan President Jimmy Morales saying his country was bringing a message of "love, peace and fraternity" to Israel. Paraguay said it also will move its embassy to Jerusalem. Romania, the Czech Republic and Honduras have said they are considering doing the same.And Bibi, Trump and Hamas all got what they wanted. What a week!
Couldn't find a Friedrich in the bunch.
You are right. Bibi got the Embassy moved, Trump made good on a promise 3 previous President reneged on, and Hamas got what they wanted.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/hamas-gaza-protest-martyrdom-operation/
No, that was the concern of 3 past Presidents who made a promise and never kept it.
50 dead Hamas members? Hamas members are always of concern, to Israel and to any one concerned with a terrorist organization committed to the destruction of Israel. You might also note there was no uprising on the West Bank.
What peace process are you talking about? The one Obama brought about?
When Trump announced he was moving the Embassy he also noted it would not preclude a Palestinian Embassy in East Jerusalem and he also noted we were preparing a basis for a peace treaty discussion.
What have I said that you wish to dispute?
Anything that can be done with a stroke of a pen, without any diligence or regard for the consequences is not an accomplishment that anyone should celebrate.
You are an apologist for someone who will throw you under a bus the minute he can find a way to benefit himself by doing so. In fact if you are a resident of NJ he already has.
Red_Barchetta said:
Anything that can be done with a stroke of a pen, without any diligence or regard for the consequences is not an accomplishment that anyone should celebrate.
You are an apologist for someone who will throw you under a bus the minute he can find a way to benefit himself by doing so. In fact if you are a resident of NJ he already has.
Considering the fact that I have on more than one occasion called Trump FOS, and more than once said you cannot believe anything he says,, and have made it clear that I didn't vote for him, I don't think you need worry about my getting thrown under any bus.
As to your first sentence, you have no idea as to his diligence or his regard for consequences since much of what he has done has yet to work itself out, and some of it, at this point, seems to be working.
I've never heard anyone suggest that Trump is diligent about anything other than his own perceived self interest.
BCC said:
Red_Barchetta said:
Anything that can be done with a stroke of a pen, without any diligence or regard for the consequences is not an accomplishment that anyone should celebrate.
You are an apologist for someone who will throw you under a bus the minute he can find a way to benefit himself by doing so. In fact if you are a resident of NJ he already has.
Considering the fact that I have on more than one occasion called Trump FOS, and more than once said you cannot believe anything he says,, and have made it clear that I didn't vote for him, I don't think you need worry about my getting thrown under any bus.
As to your first sentence, you have no idea as to his diligence or his regard for consequences since much of what he has done has yet to work itself out, and some of it, at this point, seems to be working.
It's pretty damn clear whenever he opens his mouth that he has never been diligent on any matter of policy. His idea of diligence is repeating the latest talking point from Fox and Friends.
BCC said:
Red_Barchetta said:
Anything that can be done with a stroke of a pen, without any diligence or regard for the consequences is not an accomplishment that anyone should celebrate.
You are an apologist for someone who will throw you under a bus the minute he can find a way to benefit himself by doing so. In fact if you are a resident of NJ he already has.
Considering the fact that I have on more than one occasion called Trump FOS, and more than once said you cannot believe anything he says,, and have made it clear that I didn't vote for him, I don't think you need worry about my getting thrown under any bus.
How’s your property tax deduction looking?
dave23 said:
I've never heard anyone suggest that Trump is diligent about anything other than his own perceived self interest.
Just for starters
Trump has certainly been diligent about what is happening with the NOKO situation,.in moving the Embassy, and in appointing judges who will be there long after he is gone.
BCC said:
Just for starters
Trump has certainly been diligent about what is happening with the NOKO situation,.in moving the Embassy, and in appointing judges who will be there long after he is gone.
I do not think "diligent" is the right word. To me that word suggests study and analysis. Trump works on instinct and with spontaneity.
Red_Barchetta said:
BCC said:How’s your property tax deduction looking?
Red_Barchetta said:
Anything that can be done with a stroke of a pen, without any diligence or regard for the consequences is not an accomplishment that anyone should celebrate.
You are an apologist for someone who will throw you under a bus the minute he can find a way to benefit himself by doing so. In fact if you are a resident of NJ he already has.
Considering the fact that I have on more than one occasion called Trump FOS, and more than once said you cannot believe anything he says,, and have made it clear that I didn't vote for him, I don't think you need worry about my getting thrown under any bus.
As a matter of fact my tax situation overall is doing just fine and will probably improve next year. -- all of which is irrelevant.
The important thing will be how the tax cut affects the country nation wide.The upcoming election my give some clue to that.
The Tax Bill, which is a tax cut for some but not all, will affect different parts of the Country differently and different people within those different parts differently.
The Elections this year are partially national in nature but also local in nature. The Tax Bill may have some effect but elections in swing Congressional Districts and in States holding Senate Elections will be decided on the basis of many issues as well as on the basis of personalities.
LOST said:
The Tax Bill, which is a tax cut for some but not all, will affect different parts of the Country differently and different people within those different parts differently.
The Elections this year are partially national in nature but also local in nature. The Tax Bill may have some effect but elections in swing Congressional Districts and in States holding Senate Elections will be decided on the basis of many issues as well as on the basis of personalities.
The tax bill is costing NJ $6 billion - money going to the red welfare states.
If you are wealthy and are invested in the stock market, the tax cut is pretty nice, what with corporations spending their windfall on stock buybacks and that sort of thing.
If your household income is around the median, the tax cut benefit is perhaps $1000 annually - a lot of money - but not really material compared to expenses like health insurance or housing or the cost of college.
tjohn said:
If your household income is around the median, the tax cut benefit is perhaps $1000 annually - a lot of money - but not really material compared to expenses like health insurance or housing or the cost of college.
Which may be lost due if Trump has his way with tariffs. Taxes under another name. We'll see consumer goods increase in price.
Haven't washing machines price increased by 10% due to tariffs?
BCC said:
dave23 said:
I've never heard anyone suggest that Trump is diligent about anything other than his own perceived self interest.
Just for starters
Trump has certainly been diligent about what is happening with the NOKO situation,.in moving the Embassy, and in appointing judges who will be there long after he is gone.
Trump hasn't the slightest idea of the complexities that go on in North Korea, the embassy moved required no diligence and other people do the legwork on judges and just give him a list. If you really think that Trump is studying the complexities of North Korea and stays up late at night reading the histories and bios of those judges than it's just another thing we disagree on.
dave23 said:
BCC said:Trump hasn't the slightest idea of the complexities that go on in North Korea, the embassy moved required no diligence and other people do the legwork on judges and just give him a list. If you really think that Trump is studying the complexities of North Korea and stays up late at night reading the histories and bios of those judges than it's just another thing we disagree on.
dave23 said:
I've never heard anyone suggest that Trump is diligent about anything other than his own perceived self interest.
Just for starters
Trump has certainly been diligent about what is happening with the NOKO situation,.in moving the Embassy, and in appointing judges who will be there long after he is gone.
The CEO of a major corporation doesn't usually get involved in the nuts and bolts of an operation.
It was Trump who sent Pompeo to Pyongyang (and the NYT who lost him;} and Trump who signed off on moving the Embassy and Trump who signed the appointment of those judges.
No one expected him to to take over and run those events in their entirety. If you did, we do indeed disagree.
Unmentioned here (I think) is that there have been to large bombings of Iranian military assets in Syria in the lat few days. No official assignment of responsibility yet but it appears the Israelis are not stopping. Also getting the sense that the Russians and Assad are not entirely unhappy about it. The Russians made a statement the other day that all foreign forces would be leaving Syria and the Iranians kinda shot it down. There's tension there. Assad has needed Iran but does not it to control his country.
BCC said:
The CEO of a major corporation doesn't usually get involved in the nuts and bolts of an operation.
It was Trump who sent Pompeo to Pyongyang (and the NYT who lost him;} and Trump who signed off on moving the Embassy and Trump who signed the appointment of those judges.
No one expected him to to take over and run those events in their entirety. If you did, we do indeed disagree.
There's a lot of distance between understanding the complexities of foreign policy and getting involved in the nuts and bolts. Every day Trump demonstrates his profound ignorance. (And none of the things you cite demonstrate anything approaching diligence.)
BCC said:
The CEO of a major corporation doesn't usually get involved in the nuts and bolts of an operation.
It was Trump who sent Pompeo to Pyongyang (and the NYT who lost him;} and Trump who signed off on moving the Embassy and Trump who signed the appointment of those judges.
No one expected him to to take over and run those events in their entirety. If you did, we do indeed disagree.
It's not just "nuts and bolts".
How many books or articles has Trump read about Korea?
How many books or articles has he read about Israel or the Middle East in general.
Did he read all of those potential judges' resumes? Did he read any opinions they may have rendered as lower court judges or any articles they may have written.
How much research did he do on any of these matters compared to the amount of research he does before he buys a major property?
The aides are also concerned about what kind of grasp Mr. Trump has on the details of the North Korea program, and what he must insist upon as the key components of denuclearization. Mr. Moon and his aides reported that Mr. Kim seemed highly conversant with all elements of the program when the two men met, and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has made similar comments about Mr. Kim, based on his two meetings with him in Pyongyang, the North’s capital.
But aides who have recently left the administration say Mr. Trump has resisted the kind of detailed briefings about enrichment capabilities, plutonium reprocessing, nuclear weapons production and missile programs that Mr. Obama and President George W. Bush regularly sat through.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/20/us/politics/trump-north-korea-nuclear.html
Those items are anonymously sourced, so I suppose they might be untrue. But hard to believe the Times would publish this if they hadn't confirmed that the sources would be in a position to know this.
And bringing up "the Libya model" as it might apply to NK is an interesting strategy.
dave23 said:
And bringing up "the Libya model" as it might apply to NK is an interesting strategy.
Yeah, I wondered about that. My guess is Bolton is worried that Trump is going to give away the store, so he is trying to sabotage the negotiations.
Trump seems to want to have a great summit very badly. So assuming it will go through, and they reach a bigly agreement, it will be interesting to compare it with the Iran deal. Since that was such a total disaster, you would at a minimum expect that Trump's NK deal would be much better. For example, Iran only agreed to reduce their uranium stockpile by about 98%, reduce their number of centrifuges, get rid of ability to produce weapon-grade plutonium, etc. All verifiable. I am sure Trumps NK deal will be much, much better. After all, it will get him a Nobel price. Many people have told him that already. What a clown.
dave23 said:
BCC said:There's a lot of distance between understanding the complexities of foreign policy and getting involved in the nuts and bolts. Every day Trump demonstrates his profound ignorance. (And none of the things you cite demonstrate anything approaching diligence.)
The CEO of a major corporation doesn't usually get involved in the nuts and bolts of an operation.
It was Trump who sent Pompeo to Pyongyang (and the NYT who lost him;} and Trump who signed off on moving the Embassy and Trump who signed the appointment of those judges.
No one expected him to to take over and run those events in their entirety. If you did, we do indeed disagree.
Do you know the definition of 'diligence? I'll save you the trouble.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diligence
'a : steady, earnest, and energetic effort : persevering application '
Trump showed those qualities in each of the events I listed.
He is actively involved in the NOKO affair'
He made a promise and pushed it to fruition.
He broke the record for seating judges.
You and the others are making a serious mistake if you think you're dealing with a fool.
LOST said:
BCC said:It's not just "nuts and bolts".
The CEO of a major corporation doesn't usually get involved in the nuts and bolts of an operation.
It was Trump who sent Pompeo to Pyongyang (and the NYT who lost him;} and Trump who signed off on moving the Embassy and Trump who signed the appointment of those judges.
No one expected him to to take over and run those events in their entirety. If you did, we do indeed disagree.
How many books or articles has Trump read about Korea?
How many books or articles has he read about Israel or the Middle East in general.
Did he read all of those potential judges' resumes? Did he read any opinions they may have rendered as lower court judges or any articles they may have written.
How much research did he do on any of these matters compared to the amount of research he does before he buys a major property?
Can you answer any of those questions or do you automatically think you're dealing with an ignoramus?
BCC said:
Do you know the definition of 'diligence? I'll save you the trouble.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diligence
'a : steady, earnest, and energetic effort : persevering application '
Trump showed those qualities in each of the events I listed.
He is actively involved in the NOKO affair'
He made a promise and pushed it to fruition.
He broke the record for seating judges.
You and the others are making a serious mistake if you think you're dealing with a fool.
I knew we'd get there.
BCC said:
Do you know the definition of 'diligence? I'll save you the trouble.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diligence
'a : steady, earnest, and energetic effort : persevering application '
Trump showed those qualities in each of the events I listed.
He is actively involved in the NOKO affair'
He made a promise and pushed it to fruition.
He broke the record for seating judges.
You and the others are making a serious mistake if you think you're dealing with a fool.
Are you for real?
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Trump was the first among them to *promise* to move the embassy. All the others recognized Jerusalem as the capital--which some interpreted to mean we'd move the embassy there. But, yes, the embassy is there. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to hasten peace in the region. (I also don't think it's the tragedy that some people think it is.)