The Fight for Kherson

nan said:

Even NPR showed some concern. 

nohero said:

jamie said:
Please share the NPR report about Zelensky having money in safe places.

nan said:

Here is the NPR report.  I posted it before. Sometimes mainstream media surprises me. 

Corruption concerns involving Ukraine are revived as the war with Russia drags on

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/20/1112414884/corruption-concerns-involving-ukraine-are-revived-as-the-war-with-russia-drags-o

Click to Read More

nan said:

Here is the NPR report.  I posted it before. Sometimes mainstream media surprises me. 

Corruption concerns involving Ukraine are revived as the war with Russia drags on

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/20/1112414884/corruption-concerns-involving-ukraine-are-revived-as-the-war-with-russia-drags-o

You should read it. It doesn’t say what you claim it says “about Zelensky having money in safe places”. 


nan said:

drummerboy said:

nan said:

Discussion about Kherson offensive.  Mention of New York Times article on Russian dead and available troops.  Mention of the Yale study on Russian economy affected by sanctions ("horrible methodology").

would you ever expect, in a million years, that they would say the Yale study was valid?

no. because they're not objective "journalists". they're ideologues.

just the kind you love.

Can you please give me a list of objective journalists?    Fun Fact: They don't exist.

Why do you think they are ideologues?  That's harsh.   I did not even know you listened to any of their videos.  

If you remember from our discussion about that report the  other day,  even non-economists with different views such as PVW and myself noticed that they used non-standard measures.  I gave it to a friend to look at and he (background in Statistics, Quant, Economics) immediately said it looked like propaganda. He said it looked like it was written by a committee and that the people who wrote it did not have the kind of background you would expect to be able to write something like that.  He has not had time to look closely though.  

So, you can stop the insults and start defending this paper that you insist is based on facts, despite the fact that you had not even read it and did not know how many pagers it contained. 

the whole point of the report is that it used non-standard methods. they say that right up front.

sheesh.

and not being objective does not mean that you're an ideologue. there's a difference. ideologues never stray from the party line.

and the fact is, nan, you almost never except criticisms of Russia or Putin, because you're an ideologue too.


drummerboy said:

nan said:

drummerboy said:

nan said:

Discussion about Kherson offensive.  Mention of New York Times article on Russian dead and available troops.  Mention of the Yale study on Russian economy affected by sanctions ("horrible methodology").

would you ever expect, in a million years, that they would say the Yale study was valid?

no. because they're not objective "journalists". they're ideologues.

just the kind you love.

Can you please give me a list of objective journalists?    Fun Fact: They don't exist.

Why do you think they are ideologues?  That's harsh.   I did not even know you listened to any of their videos.  

If you remember from our discussion about that report the  other day,  even non-economists with different views such as PVW and myself noticed that they used non-standard measures.  I gave it to a friend to look at and he (background in Statistics, Quant, Economics) immediately said it looked like propaganda. He said it looked like it was written by a committee and that the people who wrote it did not have the kind of background you would expect to be able to write something like that.  He has not had time to look closely though.  

So, you can stop the insults and start defending this paper that you insist is based on facts, despite the fact that you had not even read it and did not know how many pagers it contained. 

the whole point of the report is that it used non-standard methods. they say that right up front.

sheesh.

and not being objective does not mean that you're an ideologue. there's a difference. ideologues never stray from the party line.

and the fact is, nan, you almost never except criticisms of Russia or Putin, because you're an ideologue too.

Never stray from the party line?  That must mean the mainstream media are ideologues!

What party line do the Duran follow?    They get their info from a variety of sources, including the mainstream ideologues. 


What happens if Zelensky is killed by Russian rockets?  I think of him as a hero for Ukraine.  Is there someone to take his place?


nan said:

Never stray from the party line?  That must mean the mainstream media are ideologues!

What party line do the Duran follow?    They get their info from a variety of sources, including the mainstream ideologues. 

But they never cite their sources.  Or at least provide a video where they do.  At least with Jimmy - you can actually read along with the article.  It's not a news show - it's like storytime with Jimmy, except he sometimes leaves out the most critical parts of the article.


RobertRoe said:

What happens if Zelensky is killed by Russian rockets?  I think of him as a hero for Ukraine.  Is there someone to take his place?

According to nan - he will probably be killed by fellow countrymen.  It will NEVER be Russia fault.  And if it is a Russian rocket - it's our fault because of the 2014 coup.  Geez, it's easy being nan - it's just "Anyone But Russia" all day long.


jamie said:

nan said:

Never stray from the party line?  That must mean the mainstream media are ideologues!

What party line do the Duran follow?    They get their info from a variety of sources, including the mainstream ideologues. 

But they never cite their sources.  Or at least provide a video where they do.  At least with Jimmy - you can actually read along with the article.  It's not a news show - it's like storytime with Jimmy, except he sometimes leaves out the most critical parts of the article.

They always cite their sources.  Are you sure you have watched a Duran video?  

Jimmy Dore presents parts of articles.  It would be boring if he read a whole long text.  If I find what he's saying interesting, I get the whole article.  I actually  found a better Aljazeera article on Zelensky's corruption from his show on that than the one I found by Googling.  I switched them in my link list.  He's a useful resource and he's funny and unique.  He's not someone you watch as a standalone source.  He's not that deep.  The anti-Jimmy Dore videos you post don't understand him and they find him an easy mark because he's sloppy and stoned. But, he's brilliant and greater than the sum of his parts. 


jamie said:

RobertRoe said:

What happens if Zelensky is killed by Russian rockets?  I think of him as a hero for Ukraine.  Is there someone to take his place?

According to nan - he will probably be killed by fellow countrymen.  It will NEVER be Russia fault.  And if it is a Russian rocket - it's our fault because of the 2014 coup.  Geez, it's easy being nan - it's just "Anyone But Russia" all day long.

Why would Russia kill him?  What would be their motivation?  He's just a puppet and would be replaced with another puppet.  What they really want to kill is the US State Department.  People like Blinken and Sullivan or maybe Victoria Nuland. 

The next in line would be that guy he tried to fire for being a traitor.  The Zelensky government seems to have  what they call "palace intrigue" going on.  So, that's why I don't think it would be the Russians but, of course it would be blamed on the Russians.  

Not because I think the Russians are nice or that they like Zelensky.  I think they think he's an idiot.  Lavrov made this remark about him:  "Zelenskyy says many things, depending on what he smokes or drinks."


nan said:

They always cite their sources.  Are you sure you have watched a Duran video?  

Okay they cite some sources - but it's 99% Alex's opinion on what he's read.


nan said:

Why would Russia kill him?  What would be their motivation?  

They want a new regime and he's a nazi - it's really not that difficult.  This is what they've been saying from the start - you know returning Ukraine to Mother Russia and all.

Why do you always add your excuses for them - instead of saying what THEY'RE actually saying?????????


nan said:

Not because I think the Russians are nice or that they like Zelensky.  I think they think he's an idiot.  Lavrov made this remark about him:  "Zelenskyy says many things, depending on what he smokes or drinks."

LOL - Lavrov!  I think you're in love with him.  He's never said one thing you haven't fawned over.

(not propaganda at all)


nan said:

Jimmy Dore presents parts of articles.  It would be boring if he read a whole long text.  If I find what he's saying interesting, I get the whole article.  I actually  found a better Aljazeera article on Zelensky's corruption from his show on that than the one I found by Googling.  I switched them in my link list.  He's a useful resource and he's funny and unique.  He's not someone you watch as a standalone source.  He's not that deep.  The anti-Jimmy Dore videos you post don't understand him and they find him an easy mark because he's sloppy and stoned. But, he's brilliant and greater than the sum of his parts. 

I commented on Jimmy for like 5 days in a row - IT WAS STORYTIME HOUR.  With idiotic attempts at jokes - and full to the brim with cursing - which tends to be a hack for comedians who aren't funny.

And I posted the original Dore video each time.


jamie said:

nan said:

They always cite their sources.  Are you sure you have watched a Duran video?  

Okay they cite some sources - but it's 99% Alex's opinion on what he's read.

Right, they are news commentators.   That's what they do.   And they cite all their sources.  


jamie said:

nan said:

Jimmy Dore presents parts of articles.  It would be boring if he read a whole long text.  If I find what he's saying interesting, I get the whole article.  I actually  found a better Aljazeera article on Zelensky's corruption from his show on that than the one I found by Googling.  I switched them in my link list.  He's a useful resource and he's funny and unique.  He's not someone you watch as a standalone source.  He's not that deep.  The anti-Jimmy Dore videos you post don't understand him and they find him an easy mark because he's sloppy and stoned. But, he's brilliant and greater than the sum of his parts. 

I commented on Jimmy for like 5 days in a row - IT WAS STORYTIME HOUR.  With idiotic attempts at jokes - and full to the brim with cursing - which tends to be a hack for comedians who aren't funny.

And I posted the original Dore video each time.

Maybe he is growing on you.  It takes some time.  I did not like him at first either. 


nan said:

Maybe he is growing on you.  It takes some time.  I did not like him at first either. 

Nope - I'm done watching this con man.  


jamie said:

nan said:

Not because I think the Russians are nice or that they like Zelensky.  I think they think he's an idiot.  Lavrov made this remark about him:  "Zelenskyy says many things, depending on what he smokes or drinks."

LOL - Lavrov!  I think you're in love with him.  He's never said one thing you haven't fawned over.

(not propaganda at all)

I'm in love with my boyfriend.  

I like the fact that Lavrov gives interviews to people who ask him tough questions.  You would never see that with US politicians.  Lavrov even gave an interview to the BBC.  Can you imagine Biden doing an interview with the Russian media?  He banned them instead.  We are not even allowed to hear their side of the story. 


nan said:

Right, they are news commentators.   That's what they do.   And they cite all their sources.  

So as an example.  Back in early February - they would cite all the articles about the pending Russian invasion.  Make fun of Blinken and the Biden administration.  Saying Vlad would never do this.

Then once the invasions - the rhetoric immediately spun to - Vlad had no choice.

They pivot to the Russian talking point at the drop of a dime.  Nothing Russia has done is their fault.  I'd love to see their donor list!  LOL


jamie said:

nan said:

Right, they are news commentators.   That's what they do.   And they cite all their sources.  

So as an example.  Back in early February - they would cite all the articles about the pending Russian invasion.  Make fun of Blinken and the Biden administration.  Saying Vlad would never do this.

Then once the invasions - the rhetoric immediately spun to - Vlad had no choice.

They pivot to the Russian talking point at the drop of a dime.  Nothing Russia has done is their fault.  I'd love to see their donor list!  LOL

They don't have the Western bias you are used to in your news.  They are often critical of western governments.  

But their focus is on geopolitics, not Russia.  They are only talking about Russia because it's in the news lately.  They will switch when that changes. 


nan said:

They don't have the Western bias you are used to in your news.  They are often critical of western governments.  

But their focus is on geopolitics, not Russia.  They are only talking about Russia because it's in the news lately.  They will switch when that changes. 

They HAVE Bias towards Russia - that's very obvious.  Feel free to post a video critical of Putin.

Like I said the other day - I was happy that they mentioned and acknowledged the Wagner Group fighting on behalf of Vlad - a very rare confession for them.  

I don't remember what your take on Wagner is.  

https://www.thedailybeast.com/wagners-rusich-neo-nazi-attack-unit-hints-its-going-back-into-ukraine-undercover

And here's  some more:

Perhaps Moscow’s most notorious military proxy is the Wagner Group, mercenaries the Kremlin has used to wage deniable war and otherwise promote its interests in places like Syria, Libya and Mozambique. Recently the Wagner Group deployed to the Central African Republic, and it has shown up in Mali, where its brutal methods appear to be replacing previous efforts by the international community to fight terrorists active in the country.

The Wagner Group is named after the 19th century German composer Richard Wagner, whose music Adolf Hitler adored. The group’s leader, Dmitry Utkin, reportedly wears Nazi tattoos, including a swastika, a Nazi eagle and SS lightning bolts. Wagner mercenaries are reported to have left behind neo-Nazi propaganda in the war zones where they’ve fought, including graffiti with hate symbols.

The Wagner Group also has played a key role in Putin’s long war on Ukraine, with its fighters helping him illegally annex Crimea in 2014 and fighting alongside pro-Russia separatists in the country’s east since then.

They’ve been active in the current hostilities, as well. The Daily Beast reported Jan. 31 that dozens of Wagner mercenaries were pulled from the Central African Republic to join Russian forces massing at the Ukraine border. And The Times of London reported that as many as 400 Wagner mercenaries may have been sent to Kyiv to attempt to assassinate or capture Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Ukraine’s government has claimed that Zelenskyy has survived more than a dozen assassination attempts since the invasion began.


There are more nazis in Russia than Ukraine. She will never even attempt to google the words “Wagner group” but will spend hours, way into the night searching for anti American propaganda… she doesn’t sleep even though she claims she’s leaving us to cuddle with her boyfriend and watch Netflix… or clean off the couch…or paint…while this boyfriend is watching YouTube videos. 
neurotic 


Antidemocracy proponents, whether they're MAGAs here or Putinistas there (or even here), share one trait in common - they always accuse others of having the faults that they have themselves.

Examples -

MAGAs - rant against "cancel culture" and "election fraud" as their targets.

Putinistas - rant against "Nazis" as their target.


Jaytee said:


neurotic

Nan’s injection of personal details every once in a while adds a welcome dash of whimsy that reminds me this is an online discussion among neighbors and not, as a neurosis might have someone believe, the Nuremberg trials.


Jaytee said:

There are more nazis in Russia than Ukraine. She will never even attempt to google the words “Wagner group” but will spend hours, way into the night searching for anti American propaganda… she doesn’t sleep even though she claims she’s leaving us to cuddle with her boyfriend and watch Netflix… or clean off the couch…or paint…while this boyfriend is watching YouTube videos. 
neurotic 

Where is the evidence for the statement that there are more nazis in Russia than in Ukraine?  And maybe you can tell Jaime since he's always asking for a nazi headcount.  

We already talked about the Wagner group. The Russians hired them to fight.  We have no control over that.  We have control over how we spend our tax dollars and I don't like them being spent on training Nazis.  I don't like that Ukraine citizens celebrate Stephan Bandera and has holidays to honor him.  I don't like that they have Nazi units in their military.  These are people who live in Ukraine and hold far-right beliefs.   Not the same as signing a contract with a company for mercenaries who are going to move on to the next war after you are done, not try to change the laws in your country against ethnic groups. 

I don't know where you get your information about me and my boyfriend and Netflix and how much sleep I get but I at least know you are NOT spying on me or even reading the posts where I make personal references. 


nohero said:

Antidemocracy proponents, whether they're MAGAs here or Putinistas there (or even here), share one trait in common - they always accuse others of having the faults that they have themselves.

Examples -

MAGAs - rant against "cancel culture" and "election fraud" as their targets.

Putinistas - rant against "Nazis" as their target.

There are so many insults in this post that I don't even want to unpack it, but I will just say that that the point about projection is one the author should take seriously.

Antidemocracy proponents -- those that champion censorship and neoliberal policies and neoconservative views - they always accuse others of having the faults that they have themselves.

Main Example - 

Woke Sh*tlib Blue MAGA Democrats - rant against propaganda as their target.


Nations have problematic heroes. Churchill was a war criminal. The Founding Fathers owned slaves. Stepan Bandera both was a Nazi, was imprisoned by the Nazis, and later spent his life trying to free Ukraine from Nazis and communists before being assassinated by the KGB. 


nan said:


We already talked about the Wagner group. The Russians hired them to fight.  We have no control over that.  We have control over how we spend our tax dollars and I don't like them being spent on training Nazis.  I don't like that Ukraine citizens celebrate Stephan Bandera and has holidays to honor him.  I don't like that they have Nazi units in their military.  These are people who live in Ukraine and hold far-right beliefs.   Not the same as signing a contract with a company for mercenaries who are going to move on to the next war after you are done, not try to change the laws in your country against ethnic groups. 

It does rather undermine Russia's claims that they're partly motivated by fighting neo-nazis when they themselves are funding and arming neo-nazis.

As Ridski notes, nations often (always?) have problematic heroes. In the Eastern European context, specifically, I get the sense that Nan isn't very familiar with the region's history in WWII and afterward, when peoples and states were being crushed by either the Nazi or the Soviets, sometime serially, sometimes simultaneously. And in that context, heroes of national liberation were often aligning themselves with the Germans against the Russians, or the Russians against the Germans. She seems truly baffled by why post-Soviet and post-Communist states may have been so eager to join NATO and the EU, unable to conceive of any motivation beyond American machinations.

Russia itself is actually a great example of this complicated history -- look at how central Putin has sought to make the fight against Germany to Russian national identity, and how he's explicitly tied that history to his current war against Ukraine, and how that's required elevating Stalin, one of history's great moral monsters. 

Nan also doesn't seem to have a good understanding of the cultural and legal landscape within Russia if she thinks the force of the state isn't being brought to bear against ethnic groups there. Ask the Chechens, the Tatars, the Dagestanis, or any of the many other ethnic groups within Russia where they fit in Putin's vision of a Russian, Orthodox civilization.

Someone on these threads frequently reminds us to avoid turning the news into Disney fairy tales. That's good advice -- an attempt to grapple with the actual history of the region would be a good start.


The podcasters Nan listens to get their jollies from being contrarian and don't know anything about the history of the Bloodlands.


tjohn said:

The podcasters Nan listens to get their jollies from being contrarian and don't know anything about the history of the Bloodlands.

It's a perfect example of American hubris. Always inserting ourselves into the story and insisting that we're the main character.


ridski said:

Nations have problematic heroes. Churchill was a war criminal. The Founding Fathers owned slaves. Stepan Bandera both was a Nazi, was imprisoned by the Nazis, and later spent his life trying to free Ukraine from Nazis and communists before being assassinated by the KGB. 

Ok, I did not have Stepan Bandera apologists on my Bingo card.  Now he's comparable to Churchill?  This is nonsense.  

From 2018:

Wiesenthal Center Harshly Criticizes Decision By Ukranian Parliament To Designate Birthday Of Nazi Collaborator Bandera As National Holiday

https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-center-harshly-4.html


Ask an Indian what they think of Churchill.  You will find it a bit nuanced.


In order to add a comment – you must Join this community – Click here to do so.

Advertise here!

Rentals

Sponsored Business

Find Business