The Fight for Kherson

jamie said:

I watched at 10:54 - again you are basing your "facts" of Alex's stream of consciousness - like all of you pro Moscow tactics!

It's amazing how taken you are by this con.  Everything Russia did has been on purpose - they're geniuses!!  LOL

Remember when they predicted that Russia would never invade Russia?  LOLOILOLOLOLOLOLOL

I also posted Larry Johnson's piece on how the military plans things.  The Duran video discusses that and  other opinions, including a guy who is anti-Russian.  It's not stream of consciousness.  

Do you think it is impossible that they did this on purpose?  They do seem to have been quite purposeful to me since the beginning of this thing.  

I don't really know what happened but calling this a "con" because you don't like the Russians is not really convincing. 

Everyone gets things wrong--even you.  You keep saying Putin has cancer.  He seems very healthy to me. Maybe you got that wrong.  Does that mean no one should ever listen to anything you say going forward?  Are you a con?  


nan said:

You already know what happened--the Russians left.   Are you disputing that?  

As for why they left, no one really knows for sure.  So opinion is all we have.  Any new source stating the reasons for what happened as fact is not legit. 

The Duran have been discussing this since yesterday, but I thought this one was a good one to post.

Do you disagree with him?  If so, why?

I have ZERO idea where he's getting his "facts" - you NEVER question his take on things or his sources!   And yell at us for listening to the hundreds of sources we quote from - you mainly use theUran.  I don't get how easily you're buying what they're presenting.  With virtually zero sourcing.

Remember when theUran was laughing at us when we said Russia was going to invade Ukraine?  HAHA


nan said:

Everyone gets things wrong--even you.  You keep saying Putin has cancer.  He seems very healthy to me. Maybe you got that wrong.  Does that mean no one should ever listen to anything you say going forward?  Are you a con?  

Show me where I said Vlad has cancer.  Last time you asked me if he was sick i said "I have no idea".


jamie said:

nan said:

You already know what happened--the Russians left.   Are you disputing that?  

As for why they left, no one really knows for sure.  So opinion is all we have.  Any new source stating the reasons for what happened as fact is not legit. 

The Duran have been discussing this since yesterday, but I thought this one was a good one to post.

Do you disagree with him?  If so, why?

I have ZERO idea where he's getting his "facts" - you NEVER question his take on things or his sources!   And yell at us for listening to the hundreds of sources we quote from - you mainly use theUran.  I don't get how easily you're buying what they're presenting.  With virtually zero sourcing.

Remember when theUran was laughing at us when we said Russia was going to invade Ukraine?  HAHA

He gave his sources in the video.  I guess you did not watch before commenting. 

I use lots of sources, including mainstream sources.  I do like their videos because they have interesting discussions, ask good questions and the videos are well organized and professional.  Some of the other people I listen to are more on the fly and I know they would not go over well on MOL.  I do consider my audience before posting.   grin


jamie said:

nan said:

Everyone gets things wrong--even you.  You keep saying Putin has cancer.  He seems very healthy to me. Maybe you got that wrong.  Does that mean no one should ever listen to anything you say going forward?  Are you a con?  

Show me where I said Vlad has cancer.  Last time you asked me if he was sick i said "I have no idea".

You have said it at least twice and one was recently.  I don't have time to look but I remember. 


nan said:

He gave his sources in the video.  I guess you did not watch before commenting. 


Ok, so Russian MOD is a legit source in your book?  I guess TASS is up there as well, I know Paul quotes them a lot.  You have zero skepticism in news coming from the Kremlin, but the MSM is completely evil.

Again - did Vlad invade Ukraine - has he been responsible for the decimation of a country and it's culture.  Is his media promoting a return of Ukraine to the Motherland?


Here's one of his sources - believe what you wish:


jamie said:

nan said:

He gave his sources in the video.  I guess you did not watch before commenting. 


Ok, so Russian MOD is a legit source in your book?  I guess TASS is up there as well, I know Paul quotes them a lot.  You have zero skepticism in news coming from the Kremlin, but the MSM is completely evil.

Again - did Vlad invade Ukraine - has he been responsible for the decimation of a country and it's culture.  Is his media promoting a return of Ukraine to the Motherland?

Never said I have zero skepticism.  

The west provoked Putin for eight years and then he invaded so he is responsible, but so is the west. 

I don't see his media promoting a return of Ukraine to the "Motherland"  I don't see him saying that at all.  I think they will keep the land they won in this war, but that did not have to happen--the West is responsible for that. 


jamie said:

Here's one of his sources - believe what you wish:

This should be one of your sources too.  You should listen to both sides. Did you find a problem with this report?

Brian from New Atlas uses a
"pro-NATO, pro-Ukrainian map".  The Duran also listens to and cites him.  They use many sources. 


nan said:

Never said I have zero skepticism.  

The west provoked Putin for eight years and then he invaded so he is responsible, but so is the west. 

I don't see his media promoting a return of Ukraine to the "Motherland"  I don't see him saying that at all.  I think they will keep the land they won in this war, but that did not have to happen--the West is responsible for that. 

of course we are!  LOL  Why did he wait eight years - where on this chart shows the need now compared to 2016?

I posted many articles about a return to the motherland - i guess you ignore them, I'll try to find a few.

The Vlad media also calls denazification as one of the main objectives - again - where are we with this?  I know you're 100% onboard, but still don't know how they quantify this.  Please share the theUran video about the progress on this front.


nan said:

This should be one of your sources too.  You should listen to both sides. Did you find a problem with this report?

Brian from New Atlas uses a
"pro-NATO, pro-Ukrainian map".  The Duran also listens to and cites him.  They use many sources. 

I have no time for this - what is he saying?


jamie said:

nan said:

Never said I have zero skepticism.  

The west provoked Putin for eight years and then he invaded so he is responsible, but so is the west. 

I don't see his media promoting a return of Ukraine to the "Motherland"  I don't see him saying that at all.  I think they will keep the land they won in this war, but that did not have to happen--the West is responsible for that. 

of course we are!  LOL  Why did he wait eight years - where on this chart shows the need now compared to 2016?

I posted many articles about a return to the motherland - i guess you ignore them, I'll try to find a few.

The Vlad media also calls denazification as one of the main objectives - again - where are we with this?  I know you're 100% onboard, but still don't know how they quantify this.  Please share the theUran video about the progress on this front.

I have shared videos about the genocide in the Donbas but you just googled the people involved so you could attack them personally and then dismissed them.  Seriously, you just found anything negative and did not even verify if it was true and posted it as fact.  That's how fast you wanted them gone.   Not wasting my afternoon doing MOL homework. 


If y'all are just going to do what you've been doing in all the other threads here, at least move this thread to the Russia category.


nan said:

Jaytee said:

Breaking news! This just in! Russian forces have completely abandoned Izyum in the last hour! That’s huge. Because it’s where the rail lines connect from Russia to the Luhansk and Donetsk regions. Kherson is gonna fall this week! 
Slava Ukraini 

They abandoned Izyum because it did not fit in with what they were trying to do.  They decided it was not worth the trouble. 

The Kherson offensive is over.  

There is approximately  a 0% chance that Russia abandoned Izyum voluntarily.  Anybody who makes such claims is either unable to assess reality or is deliberately telling tall tales.  Ukraine successfully launched a surprise attack and did rather well.

As far as Kherson is concerned, it would seem that Russia is better prepared to fend off Ukrainian counteroffensives, having reinforced that front recently.  If I were a betting man, I would not count on Ukraine recapturing Kherson anytime soon.  On the other hand, there is much going on in this war that cannot be explained by purely military factors, so if the defense of Kherson crumbles next week, that would not completely surprise me.

Finally, for those who think Ukraine is going to recapture the Crimea any time soon, I think you will be disappointed.  Short of a collapse of Russia mirroring the collapse of the Soviet Union, I just don't think Ukraine as the means to recapture the Crimea.

Also, that rather long-winded essay on how the U.S. conducts military operations conveniently overlooks that fact that any decent army is able to react quickly to opportunities on the battlefield.  A major opening offensive is certainly planned in detail, but once the battle begins, much must be done on they fly.  Clausewitz and, I am sure, Sun Tzu spoke about the fog of war.

In December, 1944, British and American commanders were able to reorient several divisions so that in a weeks time, they could launch counterattacks against the German thrust into the Ardennes.  I find it perfectly plausible that the AFU detected an opportunity on the Kharkov Front to launch a counterattack and moved quickly to seize this opportunity.  They only attacked with a brigade or two so it would not take them very long to get troops in position.


I don’t know, but I get this sense that the Russian federation might very well collapse within a couple of years . Look at it from an economic standpoint, their two major industries are energy and arms exports. Both of these will suffer as I see it. Several countries are suddenly not interested in Russian weapons, and Europe is accelerating its divorce from Russian energy. We were not really prepared for the collapse of the Soviet Union, and I’m afraid we will not be prepared for the collapse of the Russian federation. The ethnic Russians are the ones suffering the most casualties in this war, as they are poor and really don’t have a future outside of joining the military. They are the ones being sent into battle as cannon fodder. As for retaking Crimea, that could happen next year. Ukraine has surprised the whole world, and we have to keep the momentum. Be positive.


nan said:

jamie said:

nan said:

Everyone gets things wrong--even you.  You keep saying Putin has cancer.  He seems very healthy to me. Maybe you got that wrong.  Does that mean no one should ever listen to anything you say going forward?  Are you a con?  

Show me where I said Vlad has cancer.  Last time you asked me if he was sick i said "I have no idea".

You have said it at least twice and one was recently.  I don't have time to look but I remember. 

Ok, didn't want to go away from the purpose of this thread - which is Kherson - just wanted to share the previous time you asked me about Vlad's health - 

https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/russia-ukraine-showdown?page=next&limit=2070#discussion-replies-3594978

One other time I posed the question as to whether or not he had cancer.  Questioning something does not mean I said he had anything.  

If you accuse someone of a stance - at least have a quote to back it up.  I wish he was sick and out of power - the Russian people deserve so much more.  I know quite a few, they're good people.

Now back to Kherson!  It was quite telling that the referendum was paused.  

Also interesting the Russia diverting troops to Kherson - opened up gains for Ukraine in Kharkiv.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/11/ukraines-gains-expose-thinly-spread-russian-invaders-more-could-follow

It's all a mess.


nan said:

I have shared videos about the genocide in the Donbas but you just googled the people involved so you could attack them personally and then dismissed them.  Seriously, you just found anything negative and did not even verify if it was true and posted it as fact.  That's how fast you wanted them gone.   Not wasting my afternoon doing MOL homework. 

I can't be the only one seeing the irony in nan saying "you just found anything negative and did not even verify if it was true and posted it as fact," can I?


jamie said:

nan said:

jamie said:

nan said:

Everyone gets things wrong--even you.  You keep saying Putin has cancer.  He seems very healthy to me. Maybe you got that wrong.  Does that mean no one should ever listen to anything you say going forward?  Are you a con?  

Show me where I said Vlad has cancer.  Last time you asked me if he was sick i said "I have no idea".

You have said it at least twice and one was recently.  I don't have time to look but I remember. 

Ok, didn't want to go away from the purpose of this thread - which is Kherson - just wanted to share the previous time you asked me about Vlad's health - 

https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/russia-ukraine-showdown?page=next&limit=2070#discussion-replies-3594978

One other time I posed the question as to whether or not he had cancer.  Questioning something does not mean I said he had anything.  

If you accuse someone of a stance - at least have a quote to back it up.  I wish he was sick and out of power - the Russian people deserve so much more.  I know quite a few, they're good people.

Now back to Kherson!  It was quite telling that the referendum was paused.  

Also interesting the Russia diverting troops to Kherson - opened up gains for Ukraine in Kharkiv.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/11/ukraines-gains-expose-thinly-spread-russian-invaders-more-could-follow

It's all a mess.

You focused on the cancer, not me. You seriously thought it might be real. I had never heard that. Later I heard the Duran guys laughing about all the fake health care stories about Putin and other people on his staff. So I remembered you mentioning it. Evidently one guy Shoygu (?) allegedly had multiple heart attacks and yet he communicates fine and seems healthy.

My impression of the Kherson offensive is that it bombed and had a tremendous amount of Ukrainian casualties and is now over.


nan said:

You focused on the cancer, not me. You seriously thought it might be real. I had never heard that. Later I heard the Duran guys laughing about all the fake health care stories about Putin and other people on his staff. So I remembered you mentioning it. Evidently one guy Shoygu (?) allegedly had multiple heart attacks and yet he communicates fine and seems healthy.

I have no idea what you’re talking about.  I shared one story and questioned it - I never said he had cancer.  Then you asked me twice if he had cancer and I said I don’t know.

Whereas you post theUran videos daily and NEVER question their sources!


jamie said:

I have no idea what you’re talking about.  I shared one story and questioned it - I never said he had cancer.  Then you asked me twice if he had cancer and I said I don’t know.

Whereas you post theUran videos daily and NEVER question their sources!

I never asked you if he had cancer. I post some Duran videos. Recently I posted one about what was going on in Europe. They quoted European leaders. I googled because the stuff they were saying was off the wall. Turns out the Duran got it right. Europe is run by nut jobs living in bubbles.

The Duran usually credits their sources and many are mainstream. They use a variety. That’s why I like them. 

I also listen to Brian at the new Arles. He uses a pro-Ukraine map. Another guy I listen to gets info from the Pentagon. It is a false assumption that I don’t check or question sources. 

That would be other posters who you never ask for any verification. 


jamie said:

Ok, didn't want to go away from the purpose of this thread - which is Kherson - just wanted to share the previous time you asked me about Vlad's health - 

https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/russia-ukraine-showdown?page=next&limit=2070#discussion-replies-3594978

Now back to Kherson!  It was quite telling that the referendum was paused.  

Also interesting the Russia diverting troops to Kherson - opened up gains for Ukraine in Kharkiv.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/11/ukraines-gains-expose-thinly-spread-russian-invaders-more-could-follow

It's all a mess.

It is a colossal mess indeed. You will see the puppets Putin put in charge of every city or locality the Russians controlled will start disappearing. Everyone is looking out for their own necks now that the defecation is coming into contact with the rotary oscillator. I think most people underestimated the determination of the Ukrainian people. 


This is Dmriti's  tweet about the information the Wagner group has about Ukraine's plans for attacking Kherson city.  


Police officers in Kherson appointed by the Russian are abandoning their posts, turning in their badges..  and I guess their coats…. Rats know when the ship is sinking.


Jaytee said:

I don’t know, but I get this sense that the Russian federation might very well collapse within a couple of years . Look at it from an economic standpoint, their two major industries are energy and arms exports. Both of these will suffer as I see it. Several countries are suddenly not interested in Russian weapons, and Europe is accelerating its divorce from Russian energy. We were not really prepared for the collapse of the Soviet Union, and I’m afraid we will not be prepared for the collapse of the Russian federation. The ethnic Russians are the ones suffering the most casualties in this war, as they are poor and really don’t have a future outside of joining the military. They are the ones being sent into battle as cannon fodder. As for retaking Crimea, that could happen next year. Ukraine has surprised the whole world, and we have to keep the momentum. Be positive.

Russia is making A LOT of money right now selling their oil India, China, other Asian countries, and even Saudi Arabia. Sanctions against Russia initially drove up global oil prices, which helped Russia earn more money on lower export volumes.  With prices trending down now, I'm not sure how long they can keep this up.  

They rely mainly on Europe for natural gas sales, so it's not clear to me how much supply they can pivot to Asia.  


I think by December things will become clearer when EU members stop buying oil from Russia. Japan and South Korea are phasing out Russian oil. Putin is selling it to Asia at discount, around $20 a barrel, and they’re stocking up. But the prices are still going up for the consumer in these countries, which is causing much hardship. How long can they sustain this? They haggle with Putin and screw their own people, that’s how it is… Money talks… poor people walk.

The situation In Kherson is getting dire for the Russian soldiers, when it falls that is when Putin will lose his siht.


"Russia's Quiet Withdrawal from Kherson:

Multiple Russian units in Kherson have allegedly received orders to evacuate to the left bank of the Dnieper.

Russian forces have resorted to using small stolen civilian craft to transfer their equipment across the river."

https://twitter.com/WhereisRussia/status/1570718399768199168


cramer said:

"Russia's Quiet Withdrawal from Kherson:

Multiple Russian units in Kherson have allegedly received orders to evacuate to the left bank of the Dnieper.

Russian forces have resorted to using small stolen civilian craft to transfer their equipment across the river."

https://twitter.com/WhereisRussia/status/1570718399768199168

Hopefully this is true.  If Ukraine can regain control of the right bank of the Dnieper, that will be big benefit for Ukraine because it will greatly reduce the threat of a Russian operation to secure the Black Sea coast.  


tjohn said:

cramer said:

"Russia's Quiet Withdrawal from Kherson:

Multiple Russian units in Kherson have allegedly received orders to evacuate to the left bank of the Dnieper.

Russian forces have resorted to using small stolen civilian craft to transfer their equipment across the river."

https://twitter.com/WhereisRussia/status/1570718399768199168

Hopefully this is true.  If Ukraine can regain control of the right bank of the Dnieper, that will be big benefit for Ukraine because it will greatly reduce the threat of a Russian operation to secure the Black Sea coast.  

The right bank appears to be marshland.  If Russian troops are withdrawing from the city they need to move back at least a few miles.


Occupiers are preparing retreat routes in Kherson Oblast, they have sunk 9 wagons



https://news.yahoo.com/occupiers-preparing-retreat-routes-kherson-153000048.html


nan said:

Jaytee said:

Breaking news! This just in! Russian forces have completely abandoned Izyum in the last hour! That’s huge. Because it’s where the rail lines connect from Russia to the Luhansk and Donetsk regions. Kherson is gonna fall this week! 
Slava Ukraini 

They abandoned Izyum because it did not fit in with what they were trying to do.  They decided it was not worth the trouble. 

The Kherson offensive is over.  

Really?


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