What does Putin want (and whatabout it)
nan said:
drummerboy said:
nan said:
nohero said:
nan said:
So you ran out of arguments and have decided to just go into general denial mode because you can't handle the fact that the US engineered the 2014 coup in Ukraine and turned the country into a client state to try to take down Putin. The welfare of the Ukrainian people was not a concern.
Yes, I deny the false narrative set forth above.
OK, so there were zippo CIA projects involved? YES or NO?
Not even the twelve listed in the New York Times?
The Spy War: How the C.I.A. Secretly Helps Ukraine Fight Putin
For more than a decade, the United States has nurtured a secret intelligence partnership with Ukraine that is now critical for both countries in countering Russia.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html
and that's not even the NGOs.
given the current, and past state of the world, say since WW II, do you think there should not be anything like a CIA?
There should not be anything like the CIA. I'm not opposed to intelligence operations, but the CIA we have go way above and beyond including into treasonous areas. Dwight Eisenhower warned about them back in the 1950's. Here is what he said:
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
my bad for phrasing the question poorly.
yes, I agree. there should not be anything like the CIA.
nor should there be war, poverty and pestilence.
never mind.
nan said:
The article says there were extensive US CIA activities in Ukraine prior to the war. They were training Ukrainians to spy on Russia. That supports my claims about the headline. In addition to this there was all the NGO social engineering stuff going on, discussed elsewhere. Together it paints Ukraine as a very compromised country.
And you wonder why Russia was concerned?
If Russia was "concerned", it would be concern that they would have a harder time invading Ukraine, or otherwise trying to bully the people of Ukraine into being subservient, the way Belarus is.
Still not a good look, to say that justifies Putin's invasion.
We've gone from needing an existential threat to justify an invasion, to merely needing to be concerned.
nan said:
Mate was able to verify that he worked in the Ukraine government around high level people and so he is a valuable resource. I'm not a Rudy Giuliani fan but you can't always pick your whistleblowers - with covert operations they are few and far between. You don't like this guy because he says what you deny: that the US was behind the 2014 coup. You prefer to believe someone who went to Ukraine during summer vacation, was confused and got upset with the Russians.
Mate's "whistleblower" is a known con man. This was explained already on this thread, two days ago, when you described him as a "whistleblower": "That's a ridiculous way to describe Telizhenko, who's a longtime promoter of Russian disinformation, as recounted in this 2020 article - Andrii Telizhenko: US revokes visa of Giuliani’s Ukrainian ally who spread conspiracy theories about the Bidens | CNN Politics"
As for the author Sasha Vasilyuk, to whom you keep directing petty and ignorant insults like that, she's an honest witness. Her first novel is based on the life and experience of her Jewish Ukrainian grandfather, which probably bothers you since it spoils the whole "Ukrainians are Nazis" narrative.
jamie said:
Remember the days when nan and paul said we were hysterical when we thought Putin and going to invade Ukraine?
And when Vlad gives a reason - people like nan and mate create their own narrative to justify his action. It's just plain weird. The anti-war crowd is certainly more Pro-Putin these days. And crickets when I question the slaughter of Russian soldiers in this crazy excuse for the biggest military campaign in Europe since WWII.
And as always - who is the current Nazi leader in
I don't remember saying you were hysterical when you thought Putin was going to invade. Maybe I did though--I'm sure SOMEONE will check and let me know. I did not know then what I know now--the extent of neocon and CIA involvement in the war.
The Nazis were hired thugs. That's why they have so much power.
BUT, this war should never have gotten to the point where the Russians felt they had to invade. They were very open to peace proposals. They had already been through 2 Minsk agreements which were not taken seriously by the West. Here is how it is described in the Mate article. Please tell me how he got it wrong--be specific. Because it sure does sound like the US subsumed Ukraine's autonomy into a client state--against the wishes of Obama. Ukraine was not an independent country. It was fishing bait the US was using to try to catch Russia.
That same month, Obama’s commitment gave Merkel the momentum to finalize the Minsk II Accords, a pact between Kyiv and Russian-backed Ukrainian rebels. Under Minsk II, an outmatched Ukrainian government agreed to allow limited autonomy for the breakaway Donbas regions in exchange for the rebels’ demilitarization and the withdrawal of their Russian allies.
Inside the White House, Obama’s position on Ukraine left him virtually alone. Obama’s reluctance to arm Ukraine, Chollet recalled, marked a rare situation “in which just about every senior official was for doing something that the president opposed.”
One of those senior officials was the State Department’s point person for Ukraine, Victoria Nuland. Along with allied officials and lawmakers, Nuland sought to undermine the Minsk peace pact even before it was signed.
As Germany and France lobbied Moscow and Kyiv to accept a peace deal, Nuland addressed a private meeting of U.S. officials, generals, and lawmakers – including Sen. McCain and future Secretary of State Mike Pompeo – on the sidelines of the annual Munich Security Conference. Dismissing the French-German diplomatic efforts as an act of appeasement, Nuland outlined a strategy to continue the war with a fresh influx of Western arms. Perhaps mindful of the optics of flooding Ukraine with military hardware at a time when the Obama administration was claiming to support to a peace agreement, Nuland offered a public relations suggestion. “I would like to urge you to use the word ‘defensive system’ to describe what we would be delivering against Putin’s offensive systems,” Nuland told the gathering.
The Munich meeting underscored that while President Obama may have publicly supported a peace deal in Ukraine, a bipartisan alliance of powerful Washington actors – including his own principals – was determined to stop it. As Foreign Policy magazine reported, “the takeaway for many Europeans ... was that Nuland gave short shrift to their concerns about provoking an escalation with Russia and was confusingly out of sync with Obama.”
As Nuland and other officials quietly undermined the Minsk accords, the CIA deepened its role in Ukraine. U.S. intelligence sources recently disclosed to the New York Times that the agency has operated 12 secret bases inside Ukraine since 2014. The post-coup government’s first new spy chief, Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, also revealed that he established a formal partnership with the CIA and MI6 just two days after Yanukovych’s ouster.
According to a separate account in the Washington Post, the CIA restructured Ukraine’s two main spy services and turned them into U.S. proxies. Starting in 2015, the CIA transformed Ukraine’s military intelligence agency, the GUR, so extensively that “we had kind of rebuilt it from scratch,” a former intelligence official told the Post. “GUR was our little baby.” As a benefit of being the CIA's proxy, the agency even funded new headquarters for the GUR’s paramilitary wing and a separate division for electronic espionage.
In a 2016 congressional appearance, Nuland touted the extensive U.S. role in Ukraine. “Since the start of the crisis, the United States has provided over $760 million in assistance to Ukraine, in addition to two $1 billion loan guarantees,” Nuland said. U.S. advisers “serve in almost a dozen Ukrainian ministries,” and were helping “modernize Ukraine’s institutions” of state-owned industries.
Nuland’s comments underscored an overlooked irony of the U.S. role in Ukraine: In claiming to defend Ukraine from Russian influence, Ukraine was subsumed by American influence.
nohero said:
nan said:
Mate was able to verify that he worked in the Ukraine government around high level people and so he is a valuable resource. I'm not a Rudy Giuliani fan but you can't always pick your whistleblowers - with covert operations they are few and far between. You don't like this guy because he says what you deny: that the US was behind the 2014 coup. You prefer to believe someone who went to Ukraine during summer vacation, was confused and got upset with the Russians.
Mate's "whistleblower" is a known con man. This was explained already on this thread, two days ago, when you described him as a "whistleblower": "That's a ridiculous way to describe Telizhenko, who's a longtime promoter of Russian disinformation, as recounted in this 2020 article - Andrii Telizhenko: US revokes visa of Giuliani’s Ukrainian ally who spread conspiracy theories about the Bidens | CNN Politics"
As for the author Sasha Vasilyuk, to whom you keep directing petty and ignorant insults like that, she's an honest witness. Her first novel is based on the life and experience of her Jewish Ukrainian grandfather, which probably bothers you since it spoils the whole "Ukrainians are Nazis" narrative.
Oh, CNN thinks he's spreading Russian Disinformation! Yeah, that's legit. They revoked his visa because they did not want him to say stuff, possibly under oath. It would have looked bad for the US. So, they smear him and accuse him of being a Russian Agent without evidence. Where have I heard this tactic before?????? Hummm?
The part about Ukraine interfering in the 2016 election happened as discussed in the Mate article. I remember Paul and I bringing it up on MOL -- there was not much press coverage--of course. Everyone focused on Russian interference but there was no evidence for that. Ironically, there was evidence of Ukraine interfering on behalf of Clinton.
Anyway, this guy is not a "known con man" as much as you want him to be.
From the Mate article:
Just as Telizhenko has been effectively silenced in the U.S. establishment, so has the Ukrainian meddling that he helped expose. Capturing the prevailing media narrative, the Washington Post recently claimed that Trump has “falsely blamed Ukraine for trying to help Democratic rival Hillary Clinton,” which, the Post added, is “a smear spread by Russian spy services.” This narrative ignores a voluminous record that includes Ukrainian officials admitting to helping Clinton.
drummerboy said:
nan said:
drummerboy said:
nan said:
nohero said:
nan said:
So you ran out of arguments and have decided to just go into general denial mode because you can't handle the fact that the US engineered the 2014 coup in Ukraine and turned the country into a client state to try to take down Putin. The welfare of the Ukrainian people was not a concern.
Yes, I deny the false narrative set forth above.
OK, so there were zippo CIA projects involved? YES or NO?
Not even the twelve listed in the New York Times?
The Spy War: How the C.I.A. Secretly Helps Ukraine Fight Putin
For more than a decade, the United States has nurtured a secret intelligence partnership with Ukraine that is now critical for both countries in countering Russia.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html
and that's not even the NGOs.
given the current, and past state of the world, say since WW II, do you think there should not be anything like a CIA?
There should not be anything like the CIA. I'm not opposed to intelligence operations, but the CIA we have go way above and beyond including into treasonous areas. Dwight Eisenhower warned about them back in the 1950's. Here is what he said:
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.my bad for phrasing the question poorly.
yes, I agree. there should not be anything like the CIA.
nor should there be war, poverty and pestilence.
never mind.
If we did not have the CIA being anything like the CIA we would have much less war, poverty and pestilence.
I want to point out another implication of Nan's argument. If it was the CIA that was responsible for Yanukovych's ouster, and Ukraine has been a U.S. proxy since then, and this is what justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2014 and its escalation int 2022, then how, exactly, is a cease fire supposed to work? If Ukraine just stops fighting now, then Russia still faces the same situation that Nan claims justifies Russia's fighting to this point -- Ukraine would still be, per Nan, a U.S. proxy. So why would Russia agree to a cease fire? Doesn't Nan's position basically mean Russia must keep fighting until the Euromaidan revolution is reversed and Ukraine returned to its pre-2014 state?
nan said:
...Oh, CNN thinks he's spreading Russian Disinformation! Yeah, that's legit.
...
oh look. I guess CNN doesn't meet your high falutin standards, huh?
drummerboy said:
nan said:
...Oh, CNN thinks he's spreading Russian Disinformation! Yeah, that's legit.
...oh look. I guess CNN doesn't meet your high falutin standards, huh?
It wasn’t CNN saying it, it was just the news outlet reporting action taken in 2020 by the government.
nan said:
jamie said:
Remember the days when nan and paul said we were hysterical when we thought Putin and going to invade Ukraine?
And when Vlad gives a reason - people like nan and mate create their own narrative to justify his action. It's just plain weird. The anti-war crowd is certainly more Pro-Putin these days. And crickets when I question the slaughter of Russian soldiers in this crazy excuse for the biggest military campaign in Europe since WWII.
And as always - who is the current Nazi leader in
I don't remember saying you were hysterical when you thought Putin was going to invade. Maybe I did though--I'm sure SOMEONE will check and let me know. I did not know then what I know now--the extent of neocon and CIA involvement in the war.
The Nazis were hired thugs. That's why they have so much power.
Ok, again - please list the current nazi leader - why is this such a hard question. It's insane that there's no clear answer to this. Young Russians are storming Ukraine to Kill nazis (the worst scourge since WWII). During WWII -Hitler was the leader of the Nazis they wore swastikas - they're aim was to rid Europe of Jews and other “inferior” peoples, absorb pure-blooded Aryans into a greatly expanded German. So, please make the parallel - who is the Ukrainan Nazi leader and what has their goal been the past 10 years? How many were there at the start - and how many have been eliminated through the "Special Operation"? Hate to be a broken record but this is a big part of Vlad's excuse to decimate Ukraine.
PVW said:
I want to point out another implication of Nan's argument. If it was the CIA that was responsible for Yanukovych's ouster, and Ukraine has been a U.S. proxy since then, and this is what justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2014 and its escalation int 2022, then how, exactly, is a cease fire supposed to work? If Ukraine just stops fighting now, then Russia still faces the same situation that Nan claims justifies Russia's fighting to this point -- Ukraine would still be, per Nan, a U.S. proxy. So why would Russia agree to a cease fire? Doesn't Nan's position basically mean Russia must keep fighting until the Euromaidan revolution is reversed and Ukraine returned to its pre-2014 state?
Why don't we ask Nan? [wave, wave], Hi PVW! Russia was all in for a cease fire from the beginning. And before that they wanted the Minsk agreements to stick. They don't want to be at war with Ukraine. This war was after a lot of failed negotiations and ignored agreements.
So, you make a good point asking what a ceasefire would look like now, because they have zero trust the west will keep their word about anything. However, they do have objectives which Ukraine could demonstrate for peace to be resestablished. One would be a formal declaration of neutrality and disarmament. All those secret CIA bases would probably have to go. They want the Nazis gone (ie. the hired goons) and banned from government. They would want security guarantees to include countries they could trust. They might ask for the Russian language to be protected. They are going to most likely keep the land they got in the war. These are all possibilities.
I think Russia would like to have peace. The US not so much, at least not until the election is over. I don't know what Ukraine wants at this point. The people probably want peace--they can't possibly want to send more men to the meat grinder. The government -- I have no idea. Zelensky looks exhausted. He's probably wondering if he's going to get out of this thing alive (The Russians won't kill him (it would not benefit them) but they would will be blamed, as usual).
jamie said:
nan said:
jamie said:
Remember the days when nan and paul said we were hysterical when we thought Putin and going to invade Ukraine?
And when Vlad gives a reason - people like nan and mate create their own narrative to justify his action. It's just plain weird. The anti-war crowd is certainly more Pro-Putin these days. And crickets when I question the slaughter of Russian soldiers in this crazy excuse for the biggest military campaign in Europe since WWII.
And as always - who is the current Nazi leader in
I don't remember saying you were hysterical when you thought Putin was going to invade. Maybe I did though--I'm sure SOMEONE will check and let me know. I did not know then what I know now--the extent of neocon and CIA involvement in the war.
The Nazis were hired thugs. That's why they have so much power.
Ok, again - please list the current nazi leader - why is this such a hard question. It's insane that there's no clear answer to this. Young Russians are storming Ukraine to Kill nazis (the worst scourge since WWII). During WWII -Hitler was the leader of the Nazis they wore swastikas - they're aim was to rid Europe of Jews and other “inferior” peoples, absorb pure-blooded Aryans into a greatly expanded German. So, please make the parallel - who is the Ukrainan Nazi leader and what has their goal been the past 10 years? How many were there at the start - and how many have been eliminated through the "Special Operation"? Hate to be a broken record but this is a big part of Vlad's excuse to decimate Ukraine.
I don't follow the Ukrainian Nazi org chart. Why don't you look it up? It's probably next to their kill list -- which includes Aaron Mate. Mate's article, names some of the key Nazis circa 2014. Google and see if they are still kicking. Vampires are hard to kill, right?
Here's a start from the article:
After an initial period of peaceful protest, the Maidan movement was soon co-opted by nationalist forces, which encouraged a violent insurrection for regime change. Leading Maidan’s hardline contingent was Oleh Tyahnybok of the Svoboda party, who had once urged his supporters to fight what he called the “Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine.” Tyahnybok’s followers were joined by Right Sector, a coalition of ultra-nationalist groups whose members openly sported Nazi insignia. One year before, the European Parliament condemned Svoboda for “racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views” and urged Ukrainian political parties “not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.”
edited to add, I just googled "head Nazi in Ukraine" and this is what I got: https://www.politico.eu/article/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-of-the-ukraine-war/
Why could you not do that? Do you suffer from "wipe my butt mentality"?
drummerboy said:
nan said:
...Oh, CNN thinks he's spreading Russian Disinformation! Yeah, that's legit.
...oh look. I guess CNN doesn't meet your high falutin standards, huh?
Does not even meet my low bar. But, you notice, I read the CNN article and responded to it.
I do, however, enjoy the weekly Useful Idiots podcast on YouTube where they review the Sunday news show "so you don't have to." They play long clips so sometimes I see quite a bit of Jake Tapper and Dana Bash. Don't get me started. . .
nan said:
jamie said:
nan said:
jamie said:
Remember the days when nan and paul said we were hysterical when we thought Putin and going to invade Ukraine?
And when Vlad gives a reason - people like nan and mate create their own narrative to justify his action. It's just plain weird. The anti-war crowd is certainly more Pro-Putin these days. And crickets when I question the slaughter of Russian soldiers in this crazy excuse for the biggest military campaign in Europe since WWII.
And as always - who is the current Nazi leader in
I don't remember saying you were hysterical when you thought Putin was going to invade. Maybe I did though--I'm sure SOMEONE will check and let me know. I did not know then what I know now--the extent of neocon and CIA involvement in the war.
The Nazis were hired thugs. That's why they have so much power.
Ok, again - please list the current nazi leader - why is this such a hard question. It's insane that there's no clear answer to this. Young Russians are storming Ukraine to Kill nazis (the worst scourge since WWII). During WWII -Hitler was the leader of the Nazis they wore swastikas - they're aim was to rid Europe of Jews and other “inferior” peoples, absorb pure-blooded Aryans into a greatly expanded German. So, please make the parallel - who is the Ukrainan Nazi leader and what has their goal been the past 10 years? How many were there at the start - and how many have been eliminated through the "Special Operation"? Hate to be a broken record but this is a big part of Vlad's excuse to decimate Ukraine.
I don't follow the Ukrainian Nazi org chart. Why don't you look it up? It's probably next to their kill list -- which includes Aaron Mate. Mate's article, names some of the key Nazis circa 2014. Google and see if they are still kicking. Vampires are hard to kill, right?
Here's a start from the article:
After an initial period of peaceful protest, the Maidan movement was soon co-opted by nationalist forces, which encouraged a violent insurrection for regime change. Leading Maidan’s hardline contingent was Oleh Tyahnybok of the Svoboda party, who had once urged his supporters to fight what he called the “Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine.” Tyahnybok’s followers were joined by Right Sector, a coalition of ultra-nationalist groups whose members openly sported Nazi insignia. One year before, the European Parliament condemned Svoboda for “racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views” and urged Ukrainian political parties “not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.”edited to add, I just googled "head Nazi in Ukraine" and this is what I got: https://www.politico.eu/article/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-of-the-ukraine-war/
Why could you not do that? Do you suffer from "wipe my butt mentality"?
huh? That example is pretty weak. It's actually a militia mostly made up of Russians.
I think this reply was a big swing and a miss.
Why wouldn't you know or care about the Ukranian nazi chart? You have no problem pointing out all names in our government. Just weird not knowing who needs to be denazified. How many people have these Nazis killed in the past 15 years? More or less than Vlad has killed in the past 2 years?
Mate has some Nazi names from 2014? This is prime reason to decimate a sovereign land? Again - really shouldn't be hard to point them out and list the crimes they have carried out. If I knew who the are and what they did - we might be able to have a conversation about them.
Just bizarre how passionate you are to provide justification for Putin's current campaign - really sad.
nan said:
So, you make a good point asking what a ceasefire would look like now, because they have zero trust the west will keep their word about anything. However, they do have objectives which Ukraine could demonstrate for peace to be resestablished. One would be a formal declaration of neutrality and disarmament. All those secret CIA bases would probably have to go. They want the Nazis gone (ie. the hired goons) and banned from government. They would want security guarantees to include countries they could trust. They might ask for the Russian language to be protected. They are going to most likely keep the land they got in the war. These are all possibilities.
Which Nazis are currently in government? (I guess this is Jamie's question, but seems like you are saying there are currently Nazis in the Ukrainian government now, so you should be able to name them).
Also, you've spent the last several pages arguing that Russia had to invade because Ukraine is a U.S. proxy, but none of the conditions you lay out above would seem to change that -- so why would Russia be ok with this? Ukraine would still be full of people who had been manipulated by nefarious NGOs and so would remain an existential threat to Russia, right?
jamie said:
nan said:
jamie said:
nan said:
jamie said:
Remember the days when nan and paul said we were hysterical when we thought Putin and going to invade Ukraine?
And when Vlad gives a reason - people like nan and mate create their own narrative to justify his action. It's just plain weird. The anti-war crowd is certainly more Pro-Putin these days. And crickets when I question the slaughter of Russian soldiers in this crazy excuse for the biggest military campaign in Europe since WWII.
And as always - who is the current Nazi leader in
I don't remember saying you were hysterical when you thought Putin was going to invade. Maybe I did though--I'm sure SOMEONE will check and let me know. I did not know then what I know now--the extent of neocon and CIA involvement in the war.
The Nazis were hired thugs. That's why they have so much power.
Ok, again - please list the current nazi leader - why is this such a hard question. It's insane that there's no clear answer to this. Young Russians are storming Ukraine to Kill nazis (the worst scourge since WWII). During WWII -Hitler was the leader of the Nazis they wore swastikas - they're aim was to rid Europe of Jews and other “inferior” peoples, absorb pure-blooded Aryans into a greatly expanded German. So, please make the parallel - who is the Ukrainan Nazi leader and what has their goal been the past 10 years? How many were there at the start - and how many have been eliminated through the "Special Operation"? Hate to be a broken record but this is a big part of Vlad's excuse to decimate Ukraine.
I don't follow the Ukrainian Nazi org chart. Why don't you look it up? It's probably next to their kill list -- which includes Aaron Mate. Mate's article, names some of the key Nazis circa 2014. Google and see if they are still kicking. Vampires are hard to kill, right?
Here's a start from the article:
After an initial period of peaceful protest, the Maidan movement was soon co-opted by nationalist forces, which encouraged a violent insurrection for regime change. Leading Maidan’s hardline contingent was Oleh Tyahnybok of the Svoboda party, who had once urged his supporters to fight what he called the “Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine.” Tyahnybok’s followers were joined by Right Sector, a coalition of ultra-nationalist groups whose members openly sported Nazi insignia. One year before, the European Parliament condemned Svoboda for “racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views” and urged Ukrainian political parties “not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.”edited to add, I just googled "head Nazi in Ukraine" and this is what I got: https://www.politico.eu/article/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-of-the-ukraine-war/
Why could you not do that? Do you suffer from "wipe my butt mentality"?
huh? That example is pretty weak. It's actually a militia mostly made up of Russians.
I think this reply was a big swing and a miss.
Why wouldn't you know or care about the Ukranian nazi chart? You have no problem pointing out all names in our government. Just weird not knowing who needs to be denazified. How many people have these Nazis killed in the past 15 years? More or less than Vlad has killed in the past 2 years?
Mate has some Nazi names from 2014? This is prime reason to decimate a sovereign land? Again - really shouldn't be hard to point them out and list the crimes they have carried out. If I knew who the are and what they did - we might be able to have a conversation about them.
Just bizarre how passionate you are to provide justification for Putin's current campaign - really sad.
I don't know, 12 secret CIA bunkers on my border would piss me off real bad. But heh, that's just me.
PVW said:
nan said:
So, you make a good point asking what a ceasefire would look like now, because they have zero trust the west will keep their word about anything. However, they do have objectives which Ukraine could demonstrate for peace to be resestablished. One would be a formal declaration of neutrality and disarmament. All those secret CIA bases would probably have to go. They want the Nazis gone (ie. the hired goons) and banned from government. They would want security guarantees to include countries they could trust. They might ask for the Russian language to be protected. They are going to most likely keep the land they got in the war. These are all possibilities.
Which Nazis are currently in government? (I guess this is Jamie's question, but seems like you are saying there are currently Nazis in the Ukrainian government now, so you should be able to name them).
Also, you've spent the last several pages arguing that Russia had to invade because Ukraine is a U.S. proxy, but none of the conditions you lay out above would seem to change that -- so why would Russia be ok with this? Ukraine would still be full of people who had been manipulated by nefarious NGOs and so would remain an existential threat to Russia, right?
I'm not involved in negotiations, but I'm sure the Russians know what they mean when they say they need to de-Nazify Ukraine. It will be spelled out in detail on the contract.
When the NGOs are gone, the threat will be gone as well. The Nazis will be off the payrolls. They may have to get regular jobs. They might be banned from government positions. Ukraine may be prohibited from having an army. The big thing will be a promise to remain neutral.
Anyway, there probably won't be any kind of negations until after the election unless Ukraine falls apart (which might happen). I heard that Biden is not going to talk about Ukraine much during his campaign. It's going to be back burner. He's going to focus on the economy. I guess, more talk about jobs over 100k that don't require a college degree. I'd like to see that list.
nan said:
I don't know, 12 secret CIA bunkers on my border would piss me off real bad. But heh, that's just me.
Again - what on earth are you talking about? Are the Nazis hiding in CIA bunkers? And their leader is . . . . .
jamie said:
nan said:
I don't know, 12 secret CIA bunkers on my border would piss me off real bad. But heh, that's just me.
Again - what on earth are you talking about? Are the Nazis hiding in CIA bunkers? And their leader is . . . . .
No the CIA are hiding in CIA bunkers, according to the New York Times. The New York Times generally never admits there are Nazis in Ukraine. But then they don't usually admit there are CIA there either so ya never know. Stay tuned.
nan said:
No the CIA are hiding in CIA bunkers, according to the New York Times. The New York Times generally never admits there are Nazis in Ukraine. But then they don't usually admit there are CIA there either so ya never know. Stay tuned.
Care to at least share number for the "worst nazi scourge since WWII" - just an estimate - how many Nazis are running rampant in Ukraine - what is their main crime (we know what the WWII nazis were up to). And as a comparison more than 17 million troops had served in the Wehrmach. And again - who is their leader - how many has Vlad extinguished?
One thing very interesting is the neo-nazi parties in Russia just sort of evolve.
Russian National Unity or All-Russian civic patriotic movement "Russian National Unity" was an unregistered neo-Nazi, irredentist group based in Russia and formerly operating in states with Russian-speaking populations. It was founded in 1990 by the ultra-nationalist Alexander Barkashov. The movement advocated the expulsion of non-Russians and an increased role for traditional Russian institutions such as the Russian Orthodox Church. The organization was unregistered federally in Russia, but nonetheless collaborated on a limited basis with the Federal Security Service. The group was banned in Moscow in 1999.
And as a result - some formed:
The Russian Orthodox Army, ROA was a Russian separatist paramilitary group in Ukraine that has been fighting Ukrainian forces in the Donbas war. It was founded in 2014. The ROA was later absorbed into the Oplot Fifth Separate Infantry Brigade.
The Oplot Brigade also known as the Oplot 5th Separate Infantry Brigade is a military unit of Russian Ground Forces. Until January 1, 2023, it was part of the self-proclaimed "Donetsk People's Republic" (DPR). It is attached to the 1st Donetsk Army Corps.
But we'll never hear about any of these from nan or mate.
So, there has always been a very strong neo-Nazi element in Russia and yes, Putin has cracked down on it. But there are still lingering elements who's ideology cannot be squashed overnight. Wagner for example is a huge neo-nazi element that only recently disbanded. I'm sure at the end, Putin really saw them as Nazis(anti-Russian) when they started marching towards Moscow. But then, Prigozhin's plane crashed - which actually took out a few of the top Russian Nazis.
nan said:
I don't know, 12 secret CIA bunkers on my border would piss me off real bad. But heh, that's just me.
Enough to, heh, invade with an army?
And finally - just a reminder at one of Vlad's biggest rallies in recent history - let's not forget the message he was CLEARLY sending to his countrymen. So, his rattling of the "worst Nazi scourge" concern has always been his ticket to invade and regain the Motherland. It was most interesting that he waited until Trump was out of office, I believe he saw that Donny was going to be an effective partner in disbanding NATO. And with him gone and a comedian running the country - it looked like it was going to be a cakewalk.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
I don't know, 12 secret CIA bunkers on my border would piss me off real bad. But heh, that's just me.
Enough to, heh, invade with an army?
Enough to make the plans needed to invade with an army. Enough to coordinate an attack. I would not consider a CIA bunker benign and they don't occur in nature.
jamie said:
And finally - just a reminder at one of Vlad's biggest rallies in recent history - let's not forget the message he was CLEARLY sending to his countrymen. So, his rattling of the "worst Nazi scourge" concern has always been his ticket to invade and regain the Motherland. It was most interesting that he waited until Trump was out of office, I believe he saw that Donny was going to be an effective partner in disbanding NATO. And with him gone and a comedian running the country - it looked like it was going to be a cakewalk.
Peace without Nazism is a slogan I hope we all can get behind.
Not proving your theory.
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Remember the days when nan and paul said we were hysterical when we thought Putin and going to invade Ukraine?
And when Vlad gives a reason - people like nan and mate create their own narrative to justify his action. It's just plain weird. The anti-war crowd is certainly more Pro-Putin these days. And crickets when I question the slaughter of Russian soldiers in this crazy excuse for the biggest military campaign in Europe since WWII.
And as always - who is the current Nazi leader in Ukraine.