What does Putin want (and whatabout it)
Every man in Ukraine with his head shaved and a tattoo is a Nazi. It’s worse if he’s a fan of heavy metal music. The stereotypical lunacy that comes out of the mainstream media in Russia is what is causing this problem. Putin is so conservative both of his balls are in the right side sac. This guy is just as dumb and dangerous as Hitler and Stalin. Same siht… different smell
nan said:
I never said the protesters were Nazis. The Nazis were the ones that killed the ordinary Ukrainians. I've said before that there were ordinary Ukrainians there. They were upset because the economy was a mess and the government was corrupt. However, thinking that turning against Russia and embracing the EU was a manufactured conclusion for many.
Was it a manufactured conclusion for Mustafa Nayem?
nan said:
So what if he thinks it was an artificial state shaped at Stalin's will? He did not say ---"Sooooo that's why I have a right to and I'm going to take it! There is no logic here. He could have said Ukraine is where they make the best french fries and you would have said, "See, this is why he invaded!"
You have been listening to too many career Putin mind readers.
The "artificial state" argument is part of the "logic" of Putin's claim to Ukraine. No mind reading involved.
jamie said:
nan said:
I don't know. I'm thinking maybe these guys:
Meet Centuria, Ukraine’s Western-trained neo-Nazi army
A uniquely Ukrainian strain of Neo-Nazism is spreading throughout Europe, which openly advocates violence against minorities while seeking new recruits. With Kiev’s army collapsing and a narrative of Western betrayal gaining currency, the horror inflicted on residents of Donbas for a decade could very soon be coming to a city near you.
https://thegrayzone.com/2024/04/07/centuria-ukraines-western-neo-nazi-army/
I can pin point other neo nazi movemnts in russia - europe and the US. Should we give vlad the green light to decimate any land they may be close to?
I love the "Western trained" angle - no russian propaganda there -right?
As I've asked countless times - who is their current leader and where is their base. Have you written your senator outlining that we should join forces with Putin in eliminating this nazi scourge. Perhaps you could share this letter in case you wish others to do the same.
I thought those guys showed great leadership. You are very picky. Here's another contender. He beat up a Grayzone reporter and his wife was Ukraine's Acting Minister of Health and she wears a WWBD (What Would Bandara Do?) tee shirt. Her nickname was "Dr. Death."
Oh, and he runs StopFake.org -- a group you once referred me to for reliable reporting on Ukraine. Turns out they are funded by the CIA but they are well connected and really hate Russians so these could be your guys.
Top Ukrainian ‘fact-checker’ arrested for assault on Grayzone contributor
Marko Suprun, an influential NATO state-funded Ukrainian ‘fact-checker’ with close ties to Nazi activists, was taken into police custody in Washington, DC, after assaulting a contributor to The Grayzone at an event hosted by a neocon Beltway think tank.
https://thegrayzone.com/2024/04/25/ukrainian-arrested-assault-grayzone-contributor/
Excerpt. . .
Mr. Stopfake and ‘Dr. Death’ honor Bandera and court Nazis
Suprun’s organization, StopFake, publicly presents itself as a humble Kiev-based “nongovernmental organization” focused on fact-checking. Its stated goals include implementing “high standards of journalism education in Ukraine, raising the “level of media literacy,” and informing the public about “the danger of propaganda and dissemination of fake information in the media.” The group insists that it receives no government funds, stating flatly on its “About Us” page: “Stopfake.org is not supported financially or otherwise by any official Ukrainian organization or government agency.”
But the group’s claim of editorial independence is immediately contradicted by its own website, which admits just four sentences later that StopFake is “also supported by… the Foreign Ministry of the Czech Republic, [and] the Embassy of [the] United Kingdom.”
In fact, StopFake has received extensive funding from not only the British government but also the US-based National Endowment for Democracy, a CIA cutout that’s largely funded by Congress and the State Department.
StopFake was founded in 2014, but as a 2017 Politico report explained, “it was only after [the 2016] presidential election in the U.S. — when Russian fake news and cyberattacks were blamed for swaying the election in Donald Trump’s favor — that the site burst onto the global stage.”
“Almost overnight, the founders of StopFake went from provincial do-gooders to international media stars,” Politico marveled, while praising the group as “the ‘grand wizards’ of the fake-news-busting world.”
With lavish funding from Western governments and regular citations in legacy media outlets, Suprun has exploited his position in the “fake-news-busting world” to whitewash notorious Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera as a heroic resistance fighter who simply “refused to cooperate” with the Germans. His fascist-friendly tendencies do not stop there.
Not long after the Politico article was published, Suprun appeared at a nationalist summer camp in Ukraine alongside a pair of prominent neo-Nazi band leaders, Andriy Sereda and Arseniy Bilodub, who affectionately referred to Suprun as one of their ‘blood brothers’ — a term of endearment reportedly bestowed only on those who’ve completed a pagan-style ceremony which involves bloodletting. In addition to serving as the frontman for white supremacist band Perun’s Ax, Bilodub is also a leader of the infamous Right Sector movement and has been described as “the spiritual leader of the Ukrainian far right.”
Among the attendees of the Jamestown Foundation event, Suprun was hardly alone in maintaining such relationships. Other speakers from Ukraine included the odious Russian “opposition leader” Ilya Ponomarev, a political figurehead of the Nazi-infested Russian units in the International Legion, which reports to Ukrainian military intelligence chief Kyrylo Budanov. Ponomarev is also the spokesman of the dubious “National Republican Army” in Russia, on whose behalf he previously attempted to claim responsibility for Ukraine’s assassinations inside Russia.
After StopFake partnered with Facebook in 2020 to create a fact-checking service for the popular social media platform in Ukraine, it seemed that such associations might come back to haunt Suprun and his employer. In an effort to address the controversy, Suprun published a lengthy defense of his behavior which culminated with a bizarre admission:
“Have I had people with swastika tattoos in my office? I don’t examine people’s bodies as a rule, but yes. Does that make me a neo-Nazi? No,” he insisted.
Marko Suprun’s far-right connections in Ukraine are, in fact, extensive and well-documented, but they appear to pale in comparison to those of his wife, Ulana Suprun. Long before her 2016 appointment as Ukraine’s acting Minister of Health, where her lethal push for privatization earned her the nickname “Dr. Death,” Suprun has maintained close relations with a number of violent neo-Nazi organizations, including C14, which has been credited with carrying out a wave of brutal anti-Roma pogroms.
According to Ukrainian journalist Olekisy Kuzmenko, “Suprun’s contacts with C14 go back years.” What could have been a major scandal for Facebook got swept under the rug, and StopFake, which remains one of its fact-checking partners, only doubled down on its defense of C14.
Ulana Suprun has been described as one of the main patrons of the far-right activist Serhii Sternenko, 29, who led the Right Sector’s massacre of “anti-Maidan” protesters in Odessa in May 2014 and ultimately helped to ignite the civil war in eastern Ukraine. In March 2020, after StopFake officially partnered with Facebook, Suprun declared the “Russian world” to be “a threat that’s scarier than coronavirus,” and went on to hail Sternenko, who once stabbed a man to death, as “an example of that [new] generation of Ukrainians who can put everything in its place.” In the coming months, Suprun hired Sternenko’s girlfriend as her press secretary.
nohero said:
nan said:
So what if he thinks it was an artificial state shaped at Stalin's will? He did not say ---"Sooooo that's why I have a right to and I'm going to take it! There is no logic here. He could have said Ukraine is where they make the best french fries and you would have said, "See, this is why he invaded!"
You have been listening to too many career Putin mind readers.
The "artificial state" argument is part of the "logic" of Putin's claim to Ukraine. No mind reading involved.
Really, where does he lay it out so the dots are connected. Did he say Ukraine is an artificial state so that's why I'm taking it?"
I wonder how you can tell if someone is being deluded into manufactured consent vs having come to their conclusions on their own. Is it as simple as anyone who Nan disagrees with must definitionally have been led to a manufactured conclusion?
nan said:
nohero said:
nan said:
Ivan the Terrible with Ivan. Here is some great Russian painting that we will never get to see because we don't know how to play nice with other countries.
Great choice. It's representative of Russian historical revisionism about cruelty in its past.
"The canvas – Ivan the Terrible and His Son Ivan on November 16, 1581 – was completed by the Russian realist Ilya Repin in 1885 and portrays a grief-stricken tsar holding his son in his arms after dealing him a mortal blow, a historical incident the veracity of which some Russian nationalists dispute. ... Ivan the Terrible is regarded as one of the cruellest rulers in Russia’s long history: a bloodthirsty and paranoid tyrant who killed his own son. But the figure of the 16th-century tsar recently has undergone something of a rehabilitation in modern Russia, with some nationalists arguing that the painting in question was actually part of a foreign smear campaign."
It's an amazing painting that does not deserve your blast of Russophobia. I'm a Repin fan. I would love to visit the museums in Russia. Is there nothing in Russia's vast cultural history that you can appreciate without a venomous jab?
I didn't criticize the painting. I specifically was pointing to modern Russian nationalists' criticism of it. From that same article I quoted: "In 2013, a group of Orthodox Christian activists wrote an open letter to the Russian culture ministry alleging that the painting offended Russians and presented a distorted view of Russian history. Irina Lebedeva, then director of the Tretyakov gallery, said at the time that the gallery would not take the painting down."
It's of a piece with Putin's historical revisionism, also mentioned in that article -
Last year, Putin weighed in on history’s understanding of Ivan.
“Many researchers think that he didn’t kill anyone at all,” Putin said, “and that this was concocted by a Papal emissary who came to Russia for negotiations and wanted to turn Orthodox Russia into Catholic Russia ... But after Ivan refused and told him to get lost, several legends began to spring up. They began to label him ‘Ivan the Terrible’.”
Since you're "a Repin fan", you're no doubt aware that he's now recognized as a Ukrainian artist, born during the time of the Russian empire. Here's an interesting story about another of his paintings -
"The Paris-born artist Emeric Lhuisset has recreated a famous 19th-century work of art using a troupe of Ukrainian soldiers. Lhuisset told The Art Newspaper that soldiers of the 112th Territorial Defence Brigade re-enacted the Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks (1880-1891) by the Ukrainian-born artist Ilya Repin, which shows Ukrainian Cossacks giving an insulting reply to an ultimatum from the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire in 1676."
nan said:
nohero said:
nan said:
So what if he thinks it was an artificial state shaped at Stalin's will? He did not say ---"Sooooo that's why I have a right to and I'm going to take it! There is no logic here. He could have said Ukraine is where they make the best french fries and you would have said, "See, this is why he invaded!"
You have been listening to too many career Putin mind readers.
The "artificial state" argument is part of the "logic" of Putin's claim to Ukraine. No mind reading involved.
Really, where does he lay it out so the dots are connected. Did he say Ukraine is an artificial state so that's why I'm taking it?"
If you've read what Putin himself has said and written (even his long-winded historical lecture to Tucker Carlson) you would see his thought process.
nan said:
Really, where does he lay it out so the dots are connected. Did he say Ukraine is an artificial state so that's why I'm taking it?"
From the Kremlin transcript of Putin’s speech to the nation on Feb. 21, 2022, three days before the invasion:
So, I will start with the fact that modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia or, to be more precise, by Bolshevik, Communist Russia. This process started practically right after the 1917 revolution, and Lenin and his associates did it in a way that was extremely harsh on Russia – by separating, severing what is historically Russian land. Nobody asked the millions of people living there what they thought.
… [dot dot dot] When it comes to the historical destiny of Russia and its peoples, Lenin’s principles of state development were not just a mistake; they were worse than a mistake, as the saying goes.
nan said:
jamie said:
nan said:
I don't know. I'm thinking maybe these guys:
Meet Centuria, Ukraine’s Western-trained neo-Nazi army
A uniquely Ukrainian strain of Neo-Nazism is spreading throughout Europe, which openly advocates violence against minorities while seeking new recruits. With Kiev’s army collapsing and a narrative of Western betrayal gaining currency, the horror inflicted on residents of Donbas for a decade could very soon be coming to a city near you.
https://thegrayzone.com/2024/04/07/centuria-ukraines-western-neo-nazi-army/
I can pin point other neo nazi movemnts in russia - europe and the US. Should we give vlad the green light to decimate any land they may be close to?
I love the "Western trained" angle - no russian propaganda there -right?
As I've asked countless times - who is their current leader and where is their base. Have you written your senator outlining that we should join forces with Putin in eliminating this nazi scourge. Perhaps you could share this letter in case you wish others to do the same.
I thought those guys showed great leadership. You are very picky. Here's another contender. He beat up a Grayzone reporter and his wife was Ukraine's Acting Minister of Health and she wears a WWBD (What Would Bandara Do?) tee shirt. Her nickname was "Dr. Death."
Oh, and he runs StopFake.org -- a group you once referred me to for reliable reporting on Ukraine. Turns out they are funded by the CIA but they are well connected and really hate Russians so these could be your guys.
Top Ukrainian ‘fact-checker’ arrested for assault on Grayzone contributor
Marko Suprun, an influential NATO state-funded Ukrainian ‘fact-checker’ with close ties to Nazi activists, was taken into police custody in Washington, DC, after assaulting a contributor to The Grayzone at an event hosted by a neocon Beltway think tank.
https://thegrayzone.com/2024/04/25/ukrainian-arrested-assault-grayzone-contributor/
Click to Read More
I still have zero idea who the current nazi leader is. Is there no answer for this? Is Suprun the leader?
And again - please use Putin's recent speeches and news for proof of what he's doing instead of extrapolating and telling us what he's thinking as a way of excusing his destruction of Ukraine.
From March, 2014 -- letter signed by a bunch of Jewish Nazi CIA plants:
What's really sad is that "news" places like the Grayzone and posters like nan are unable to criticize Putin in the least - a good deal is due to the lack of independent press and inability of the public to speak out. It's a shame - everything that's happening in Russia would be a normal talking point for most of these people, but according to them - everything in Russia is awesome! Must close to zero deaths for all those conscripts, right? Maybe nan can find me any article form the Grayzone condemning the conscription process in Russia? I'm going through Grayzone now - and it appears that Russia has done nothing wrong.
nan said:
dave said:
Ha! The "most dangerous man in the West" starts out by giving huge praise to Piers Morgan. And then Piers Morgan says he agrees with everything the "dangerous man" says. He then proceeds to give his "dangerous" view which is, no surprise, as mainstream as it gets. This guy has quite the shtick! Great marketing - "moderately conservative communist" serving up CNN platitude, Julia Davis-like tweets, and conventional tenets of liberalism used as propaganda. Those are dangerous thoughts, but that's not the intention.
For contrast, here is someone who really challenges Piers Morgan and conventional Western views.
I guess the irony of "most dangerous philosopher" went over your head?
Also, if Putin is fighting nazis, why is he only lending support to right wing factions in Germany, Hungary and France in the EU? Kind of odd, that.
Georgia is trying to pass a foreign agent declaration law (like our FARSA) so they can better deal with the problems created by NGOs. This video discusses that and also NGOs in general and how they are able to create color revolutions and get west-friendly governments installed and sometimes provoke Russia into war. There is a standard playbook used. When NGOs are forced to say they are funded by the west, people are more likely to recognize that they are there for propaganda purposes and avoid them. NGOS are likely to shut down in countries with a FARSA type law.
Do you think Georgia should take any action regarding the heavy-handed Russian interference in that country, or do you believe only European and American influence is bad?
What's the list of NGOs they're talking about? Do they EVER list source material for they're "Facts"?
PVW said:
Do you think Georgia should take any action regarding the heavy-handed Russian interference in that country, or do you believe only European and American influence is bad?
The host and his partner with the rosy view of Georgia’s historic ties to Russia (declared independence in 1918 as soon as it could after the Bolshevik revolution, invaded by the Red Army in 1921, declared independence as soon as it could again in 1991) certainly don’t let the “high percentage” and “reservoir” of public support for NGOs get in the way of their analysis.
nan said:
NGOS are likely to shut down in countries with a FARSA type law.
The Levada Center, an NGO that was identified as a foreign agent under Russia’s FARA-type law despite saying it got no more than 3% of its funding from foreign sources and had ended that funding, was still around eight years later for its research to be cited by a commenter in this thread.
nan said:
Georgia is trying to pass a foreign agent declaration law (like our FARSA) so they can better deal with the problems created by NGOs. This video discusses that and also NGOs in general and how they are able to create color revolutions and get west-friendly governments installed and sometimes provoke Russia into war. There is a standard playbook used. When NGOs are forced to say they are funded by the west, people are more likely to recognize that they are there for propaganda purposes and avoid them. NGOS are likely to shut down in countries with a FARSA type law.
In other words, when NGO’s help the common people find their voice it disturbs Russia so much that she sometimes feels the need to invade.
nan said:
This video discusses that and also NGOs in general and how they are able to create color revolutions and get west-friendly governments installed and sometimes provoke Russia into war.
For anyone unclear, that's an example of Russian propaganda. Details on the law now being reproposed, which had been proposed and withdrawn last year -
"Last night in Tbilisi, Georgia, police used massive amounts of teargas and water cannons to disperse thousands of peaceful demonstrators who spontaneously gathered to protest a draft “foreign agents” bill, which the ruling majority rammed through parliament in first reading.
"Police detained dozens of people, who now face various administrative and criminal charges. I observed the protest myself and see no legitimate reason for the government’s use of such force to curtail this peaceful gathering.
"If adopted, the bill will require nongovernmental organizations and media outlets to register as 'agents of foreign influence' if they receive 20 percent of their funding from abroad. These groups would be subject to additional scrutiny, investigations, and fines, and their leaders could be sent to prison if found in violation of the law. A second bill to be voted on tomorrow would impose similar requirements on individuals.
"The bill will need to go through two more readings to become law.
"Both bills are out of line with Georgia’s human rights obligations to protect the rights to freedom of expression and association, and there is no doubt the intent is to have a chilling effect on the country’s critical voices.
"This threat is real. Georgian authorities claim the bill is about boosting funding transparency. But their statements indicate that if the bills are adopted, they will weaponize them for a witch hunt to stigmatize and penalize independent groups, media, and critical voices."
Link: ‘Dark Day’ for Georgia’s Democracy | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)
Just a reminder - we have FARSA here and any group (except Israel for some reason) that disseminates propaganda (or even just honest commentary, including regular news formats) must register. Those that register as Russian are definitely weaponized and stigmatized. So, If you are against the bill in Georgia, then you should want it terminated here also. Right? They are not kicking these groups out--only asking them to publicly reveal their funding. Why should foreign countries get to do secret propaganda? Of course they might be stigmatized! Who has a favorable view of other countries coming in and secretly trying to brainwash you to overthrow your government? To me it seems obvious, but on MOL we have at least one admitting he wants to protect the people who are trying to overthrow governments.
For the rest of you - do you think it's OK for one country to be in another country for the purpose of propaganda leading to regime change without revealing their funding? These groups dominate media (TV, print, social media) with a clear message that blames the government and proposes alignment with a different government as the solution. People are influenced by these groups having no idea that they are funded by a foreign government--they think they are organically formed and operated. Many of these countries are poor and have corrupt governments so people are vulnerable.
In Georgia they had a particularly bad experience with this, hence, the drive to pass this law now. Again--they are not throwing these people out--only making their funding transparent.
When someone evinces concern over the influence of NGOs, but has nothing to say about a literal foreign army occupying parts of the country, well, it raises some questions.
nan said:
Just a reminder - we have FARSA here and any group (except Israel for some reason) that disseminates propaganda (or even just honest commentary, including regular news formats) must register.
Just a reminder - the U.S. FARA law is not the same as, and not as extensive as, the laws in other countries being discussed.
nan said:
Just a reminder - we have FARSA here and any group (except Israel for some reason) that disseminates propaganda (or even just honest commentary, including regular news formats) must register. Those that register as Russian are definitely weaponized and stigmatized. So, If you are against the bill in Georgia, then you should want it terminated here also. Right? They are not kicking these groups out--only asking them to publicly reveal their funding. Why should foreign countries get to do secret propaganda? Of course they might be stigmatized! Who has a favorable view of other countries coming in and secretly trying to brainwash you to overthrow your government? To me it seems obvious, but on MOL we have at least one admitting he wants to protect the people who are trying to overthrow governments.
For the rest of you - do you think it's OK for one country to be in another country for the purpose of propaganda leading to regime change without revealing their funding? These groups dominate media (TV, print, social media) with a clear message that blames the government and proposes alignment with a different government as the solution. People are influenced by these groups having no idea that they are funded by a foreign government--they think they are organically formed and operated. Many of these countries are poor and have corrupt governments so people are vulnerable.
In Georgia they had a particularly bad experience with this, hence, the drive to pass this law now. Again--they are not throwing these people out--only making their funding transparent.
Out of curiosity, why do you believe that agents of Israel are not subject to FARA?
dave said:
Soros, being a globalist, doesn't have to register anywhere.
Some might even call him a rootless cosmopolitan.
Informative:
FARA in Focus: What can Russia’s Foreign Agent Law tell us about America’s? (Journal of National Security Law & Policy)
FAFSA in Focus: https://studentaid.gov/h/apply-for-aid/fafsa
Farfisa in Focus:
I agree with the article that restricting the scope of the U.S. FARA would be a good idea -- though I'll note that the existence of the First Amendment likely provides solid ground for challenging overreach, even absent changes to the law. I know little of Russian constitutional law, but AFAIK, it does not have an equivalent to the first amendment (or if it does, given that you can be arrested for saying "war" rather than "special military operation," it's not very robust).
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Do you think any Russians are unfairly being lead into a meat grinder -- the lack of compassion for young Russian soldiers continues to be astounding!