paulsurovell said:

Sorry I've been away for so long. I thought of this thread (and the Twitter thread) when I saw this, so I thought I'd share it with you:

Got it. You, Elon, Trump, and Putin are all of one mind. 

Let's be honest about the Russian war machine.

1.  Napolean's army died from exposure.

2.  Germany beat Russia in WW I.

3.  In World War 2, if Britain had, for some reason, cut a deal after the fall of France, Germany would have defeated Russia again or at least fought to a negotiated settlement with Russia's European borders looking something like they do today.

paulsurovell said:

Sorry I've been away for so long. I thought of this thread (and the Twitter thread) when I saw this, so I thought I'd share it with you:

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-great-risk-front-line-collapse-war-russia/

Ukraine is at great risk of its front lines collapsing

According to high-ranking Ukrainian officers, the military picture is grim and Russian generals could find success wherever they decide to focus their upcoming offensive.

Unpacked

April 3, 2024

4:00 am CET

By

Jamie Dettmer

Jamie Dettmer is opinion editor at POLITICO Europe.

KYIV — Wayward entrepreneur Elon Musk’s latest pronouncements regarding the war in Ukraine set teeth on edge, as he warned that even though Moscow has “no chance” of conquering all of Ukraine, “the longer the war goes on, the more territory Russia will gain until they hit the Dnipro, which is tough to overcome.”

“However, if the war lasts long enough, Odesa will fall too,” he cautioned.

With a history of urging Ukraine to agree to territorial concessions —

and his opposition to the $60 billion U.S. military aid package snarled

on Capitol Hill amid partisan wrangling — Musk isn’t Ukraine’s favorite

commentator, to say the least. And his remarks received predictable

pushback.

But the billionaire entrepreneur’s forecast isn’t actually all that different from the dire warnings Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy made in the last few days. According to Zelenskyy, unless the stalled multibillion-dollar package is approved soon, his forces will have to “go back, retreat, step by step, in small steps.” He also warned that some major cities could be at risk of falling.

Obviously, Zelenskyy’s warnings are part of a broad diplomatic effort to free up the military aid his forces so desperately need and have been short of for months — everything from 155-millimeter artillery shells to Patriot air-defense systems and drones. But the sad truth is that even if the package is approved by the U.S. Congress, a massive resupply may not be enough to prevent a major battlefield upset.

And such a setback, especially in the middle of election campaigns in America and Europe, could very well revive Western pressure for negotiations that would obviously favor Russia, leaving the Kremlin free to revive the conflict at a future time of its choosing.

Essentially, everything now depends on where Russia will decide to target its strength in an offensive that’s expected to launch this summer. In a pre-offensive pummeling — stretching from Kharkiv and Sumy in the north to Odesa in the south — Russia’s missile and drone strikes have widely surged in recent weeks, targeting infrastructure and making it hard to guess where it will mount its major push.

And according to high-ranking Ukrainian military officers who served under General Valery Zaluzhny — the commander-in-chief of Ukraine’s armed forces until he was replaced in February — the military picture is grim.

The officers said there’s a great risk of the front lines collapsing

wherever Russian generals decide to focus their offensive. Moreover,

thanks to a much greater weight in numbers and the guided aerial bombs

that have been smashing Ukrainian positions for weeks now, Russia will

likely be able to “penetrate the front line and to crash it in some

parts,” they said.

They spoke on the condition of anonymity to speak freely.

“There’s nothing that can help Ukraine now because there are no serious technologies able to compensate Ukraine for the large mass of troops Russia is likely to hurl at us. We don’t have those technologies, and the West doesn’t have them as well in sufficient numbers,” one of the top-ranking military sources told POLITICO.

According to him, it is only Ukrainian grit and resilience as well as errors by Russian commanders that may now alter the grim dynamics. Mistakes like the one made on Saturday, when Russia launched one of the largest tank assaults on Ukrainian positions since its full-scale invasion began, only to have the column smashed by Ukraine’s 25th Brigade, which took out a dozen tanks and 8 infantry fighting vehicles — a third of the column’s strength.

However, the high-ranking Ukrainian officers reminded that relying on Russian errors is not a strategy, and they were bitter about the missteps they say hamstrung Ukraine’s resistance from the start — missteps made by both the West and Ukraine. They were also scathing about Western foot-dragging, saying supplies and weapons systems came too late and in insufficient numbers to make the difference they otherwise could have.

“Zaluzhny used to call it ‘the War of One Chance,’” one of the officers said. “By that, he meant weapons systems become redundant very quickly because they’re quickly countered by the Russians. For example, we used Storm Shadow and SCALP cruise missiles [supplied by Britain and France] successfully — but just for a short time. The Russians are always studying. They don’t give us a second chance. And they’re successful in this.”

“Don’t believe the hype about them just throwing troops into the meat

grinder to be slaughtered,” he added. “They do that too, of course —

maximizing even more the impact of their superior numbers — but they

also learn and refine.”

The officers said the shoulder-fired anti-tank missiles supplied by the U.K. and U.S. in the first weeks of the invasion came in time, helping them save Kyiv — and so, too, did the HIMARS, the light multiple-launch rocket systems, which were used to great effect, enabling them to push Russia out of Kherson in November 2022.

“But often, we just don’t get the weapons systems at the time we need them — they come when they’re no longer relevant,” another senior officer said, citing the F-16 fighter jets as an example. A dozen or so F-16s are expected to be operational this summer, after basic pilot training has been completed. “Every weapon has its own right time. F-16s were needed in 2023; they won’t be right for 2024,” he said.

And that’s because, according to this officer, Russia is ready to counter them: “In the last few months, we started to notice missiles being fired by the Russians from Dzhankoy in northern Crimea, but without the explosive warheads. We couldn’t understand what they were doing, and then we figured it out: They’re range-finding,” he said. The officer explained that Russia’s been calculating where best to deploy its S-400 missile and radar systems in order to maximize the area they can cover to target the F-16s, keeping them away from the front lines and Russia’s logistical hubs.

The officers also said they now need more basic traditional weapons as well as drones. “We need Howitzers and shells, hundreds of thousands of shells, and rockets,” one of them told POLITICO, estimating that Ukraine needed 4 million shells and 2 million drones. “We told the Western partners all the time that we have the combat experience, we have the battlefield understanding of this war. [They] have the resources, and they need to give us what we need,” he added.

Europe, for its part, is trying to help Ukraine make up for its colossal disadvantage in artillery shells. And in this regard, a proposed Czech-led bulk artillery ammunition purchase could bring Ukraine’s total from both within and outside the EU to around 1.5 million rounds at a cost of $3.3 billion — but that’s still short of what it needs.

The officers emphasized that they need many, many more men too. The

country currently doesn’t have enough men on the front lines, and this

is compounding the problem of underwhelming Western support.

However, Ukraine has yet to pull the trigger on recruitment ahead of the expected Russian push, as authorities are worried about the political fallout mobilization measures might bring amid draft-dodging and avoidance of conscription papers. Zaluzhny had already publicly called for the mobilization of more troops back in December, estimating Ukraine needed at least an additional 500,000 men. The draft issue has gone back and forth ever since.

Then, last week, General Oleksandr Syrsky — Zaluzhny’s replacement — abruptly announced that Ukraine might not need quite so many fresh troops. After a review of resources, the figure has been “significantly reduced,” and “we expect that we will have enough people capable of defending their motherland,” he told the Ukrinform news agency. “I am talking not only about the mobilized but also about volunteer fighters,” he said.

The plan is to move as many desk-bound uniformed personnel and those in noncombat roles to the front lines as possible, after an intensive three- to four-month training. But the senior officers POLITICO spoke to said that Syrsky was wrong and “playing along with narratives from politicians.” Then, on Tuesday, Zelenskyy signed some additional parts to an old mobilization law tightening the legal requirements for draft-age Ukrainian men to register their details, and lowering the minimum age for call-up from 27 to 25. But in Ukraine, this is just seen as tinkering.

“We don’t only have a military crisis — we have a political one,” one of the officers said. While Ukraine shies away from a big draft, “Russia is now gathering resources and will be ready to launch a big attack around August, and maybe sooner.”

So, Musk may not be too wide of the mark after all.

Click to Read More

According to high-ranking Ukrainian officers, the military picture is grim and Russian generals could find success wherever they decide to focus their upcoming offensive.

Unpacked

April 3, 2024

4:00 am CET

By

Jamie Dettmer

Jamie Dettmer is opinion editor at POLITICO Europe.

KYIV — Wayward entrepreneur Elon Musk’s latest pronouncements regarding the war in Ukraine set teeth on edge, as he warned that even though Moscow has “no chance” of conquering all of Ukraine, “the longer the war goes on, the more territory Russia will gain until they hit the Dnipro, which is tough to overcome.”

“However, if the war lasts long enough, Odesa will fall too,” he cautioned.

With a history of urging Ukraine to agree to territorial concessions —

and his opposition to the $60 billion U.S. military aid package snarled

on Capitol Hill amid partisan wrangling — Musk isn’t Ukraine’s favorite

commentator, to say the least. And his remarks received predictable

pushback.

But the billionaire entrepreneur’s forecast isn’t actually all that different from the dire warnings Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy made in the last few days. According to Zelenskyy, unless the stalled multibillion-dollar package is approved soon, his forces will have to “go back, retreat, step by step, in small steps.” He also warned that some major cities could be at risk of falling.

Obviously, Zelenskyy’s warnings are part of a broad diplomatic effort to free up the military aid his forces so desperately need and have been short of for months — everything from 155-millimeter artillery shells to Patriot air-defense systems and drones. But the sad truth is that even if the package is approved by the U.S. Congress, a massive resupply may not be enough to prevent a major battlefield upset.

And such a setback, especially in the middle of election campaigns in America and Europe, could very well revive Western pressure for negotiations that would obviously favor Russia, leaving the Kremlin free to revive the conflict at a future time of its choosing.

Essentially, everything now depends on where Russia will decide to target its strength in an offensive that’s expected to launch this summer. In a pre-offensive pummeling — stretching from Kharkiv and Sumy in the north to Odesa in the south — Russia’s missile and drone strikes have widely surged in recent weeks, targeting infrastructure and making it hard to guess where it will mount its major push.

And according to high-ranking Ukrainian military officers who served under General Valery Zaluzhny — the commander-in-chief of Ukraine’s armed forces until he was replaced in February — the military picture is grim.

The officers said there’s a great risk of the front lines collapsing

wherever Russian generals decide to focus their offensive. Moreover,

thanks to a much greater weight in numbers and the guided aerial bombs

that have been smashing Ukrainian positions for weeks now, Russia will

likely be able to “penetrate the front line and to crash it in some

parts,” they said.

They spoke on the condition of anonymity to speak freely.

“There’s nothing that can help Ukraine now because there are no serious technologies able to compensate Ukraine for the large mass of troops Russia is likely to hurl at us. We don’t have those technologies, and the West doesn’t have them as well in sufficient numbers,” one of the top-ranking military sources told POLITICO.

According to him, it is only Ukrainian grit and resilience as well as errors by Russian commanders that may now alter the grim dynamics. Mistakes like the one made on Saturday, when Russia launched one of the largest tank assaults on Ukrainian positions since its full-scale invasion began, only to have the column smashed by Ukraine’s 25th Brigade, which took out a dozen tanks and 8 infantry fighting vehicles — a third of the column’s strength.

However, the high-ranking Ukrainian officers reminded that relying on Russian errors is not a strategy, and they were bitter about the missteps they say hamstrung Ukraine’s resistance from the start — missteps made by both the West and Ukraine. They were also scathing about Western foot-dragging, saying supplies and weapons systems came too late and in insufficient numbers to make the difference they otherwise could have.

“Zaluzhny used to call it ‘the War of One Chance,’” one of the officers said. “By that, he meant weapons systems become redundant very quickly because they’re quickly countered by the Russians. For example, we used Storm Shadow and SCALP cruise missiles [supplied by Britain and France] successfully — but just for a short time. The Russians are always studying. They don’t give us a second chance. And they’re successful in this.”

“Don’t believe the hype about them just throwing troops into the meat

grinder to be slaughtered,” he added. “They do that too, of course —

maximizing even more the impact of their superior numbers — but they

also learn and refine.”

The officers said the shoulder-fired anti-tank missiles supplied by the U.K. and U.S. in the first weeks of the invasion came in time, helping them save Kyiv — and so, too, did the HIMARS, the light multiple-launch rocket systems, which were used to great effect, enabling them to push Russia out of Kherson in November 2022.

“But often, we just don’t get the weapons systems at the time we need them — they come when they’re no longer relevant,” another senior officer said, citing the F-16 fighter jets as an example. A dozen or so F-16s are expected to be operational this summer, after basic pilot training has been completed. “Every weapon has its own right time. F-16s were needed in 2023; they won’t be right for 2024,” he said.

And that’s because, according to this officer, Russia is ready to counter them: “In the last few months, we started to notice missiles being fired by the Russians from Dzhankoy in northern Crimea, but without the explosive warheads. We couldn’t understand what they were doing, and then we figured it out: They’re range-finding,” he said. The officer explained that Russia’s been calculating where best to deploy its S-400 missile and radar systems in order to maximize the area they can cover to target the F-16s, keeping them away from the front lines and Russia’s logistical hubs.

The officers also said they now need more basic traditional weapons as well as drones. “We need Howitzers and shells, hundreds of thousands of shells, and rockets,” one of them told POLITICO, estimating that Ukraine needed 4 million shells and 2 million drones. “We told the Western partners all the time that we have the combat experience, we have the battlefield understanding of this war. [They] have the resources, and they need to give us what we need,” he added.

Europe, for its part, is trying to help Ukraine make up for its colossal disadvantage in artillery shells. And in this regard, a proposed Czech-led bulk artillery ammunition purchase could bring Ukraine’s total from both within and outside the EU to around 1.5 million rounds at a cost of $3.3 billion — but that’s still short of what it needs.

The officers emphasized that they need many, many more men too. The

country currently doesn’t have enough men on the front lines, and this

is compounding the problem of underwhelming Western support.

However, Ukraine has yet to pull the trigger on recruitment ahead of the expected Russian push, as authorities are worried about the political fallout mobilization measures might bring amid draft-dodging and avoidance of conscription papers. Zaluzhny had already publicly called for the mobilization of more troops back in December, estimating Ukraine needed at least an additional 500,000 men. The draft issue has gone back and forth ever since.

Then, last week, General Oleksandr Syrsky — Zaluzhny’s replacement — abruptly announced that Ukraine might not need quite so many fresh troops. After a review of resources, the figure has been “significantly reduced,” and “we expect that we will have enough people capable of defending their motherland,” he told the Ukrinform news agency. “I am talking not only about the mobilized but also about volunteer fighters,” he said.

The plan is to move as many desk-bound uniformed personnel and those in noncombat roles to the front lines as possible, after an intensive three- to four-month training. But the senior officers POLITICO spoke to said that Syrsky was wrong and “playing along with narratives from politicians.” Then, on Tuesday, Zelenskyy signed some additional parts to an old mobilization law tightening the legal requirements for draft-age Ukrainian men to register their details, and lowering the minimum age for call-up from 27 to 25. But in Ukraine, this is just seen as tinkering.

“We don’t only have a military crisis — we have a political one,” one of the officers said. While Ukraine shies away from a big draft, “Russia is now gathering resources and will be ready to launch a big attack around August, and maybe sooner.”

So, Musk may not be too wide of the mark after all.

Pretty sad that NATO and the United States failed to ramp up production to give Ukraine the artillery, ammunition and air defense they needed.  Absolutely no excuse, but typical of the way the West manages crises.

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

Sorry I've been away for so long. I thought of this thread (and the Twitter thread) when I saw this, so I thought I'd share it with you:

Got it. You, Elon, Trump, and Putin are all of one mind. 

Your reading skills have declined in my absence.

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

Sorry I've been away for so long. I thought of this thread (and the Twitter thread) when I saw this, so I thought I'd share it with you:

Got it. You, Elon, Trump, and Putin are all of one mind. 

Your reading skills have declined in my absence.

In your absence, you apparently forgot that people here can see through your bull caca. 

I doubt any facts could cause the scales to fall from the eyes of the American admirers of Putin and his military.

Pardoned for Serving in Ukraine, They Return to Russia to Kill Again

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/06/world/europe/russia-convicts-war-murder.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

If Russia is so much better than Ukraine then why are the Russians stealing toilets and kitchen appliances from the homes in Ukraine and shipping them back to Russia? All this Russian propaganda is nauseating. It’s best she just lurk and not come back throwing her pamphlets down on us. Lunatics.

Voice of reason on the Ukraine war in a NYTs OpEd.  Sad to see it comes from the Republicans because the Democrats swim in the neocon lane now.  We are down to the last Ukrainians and weapons/ammo are running dry too.  Also, he calls out those who celebrate profit from death and destruction.  Time to negotiate peace on reasonable, not fantasy terms.

J.D. Vance: The Math on Ukraine Doesn’t Add Up

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/opinion/jd-vance-ukraine.html

nan said:

Voice of reason on the Ukraine war in a NYTs OpEd.  Sad to see it comes from the Republicans because the Democrats swim in the neocon lane now.  We are down to the last Ukrainians and weapons/ammo are running dry too.  Also, he calls out those who celebrate profit from death and destruction.  Time to negotiate peace on reasonable, not fantasy terms.

J.D. Vance: The Math on Ukraine Doesn’t Add Up

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/opinion/jd-vance-ukraine.html

I don't see anything in here in regards to the biggest Nazi scourge since WWII?  If this is the case - why aren't we joining up with Russia on this front?  And again - how many Nazis are left - who is their current leader.

If one of the main goals was denazification - this needs to be addressed first and foremost.

This war will never end until the nazis are defeated.  Now , who and where are they at the moment?

jamie said:

nan said:

Voice of reason on the Ukraine war in a NYTs OpEd.  Sad to see it comes from the Republicans because the Democrats swim in the neocon lane now.  We are down to the last Ukrainians and weapons/ammo are running dry too.  Also, he calls out those who celebrate profit from death and destruction.  Time to negotiate peace on reasonable, not fantasy terms.

J.D. Vance: The Math on Ukraine Doesn’t Add Up

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/opinion/jd-vance-ukraine.html

I don't see anything in here in regards to the biggest Nazi scourge since WWII?  If this is the case - why aren't we joining up with Russia on this front?  And again - how many Nazis are left - who is their current leader.

If one of the main goals was denazification - this needs to be addressed first and foremost.

This war will never end until the nazis are defeated.  Now , who and where are they at the moment?

You are not facing reality.  J. D. Vance focuses on the big issues in this war.  Ukraine has lost and they are scraping the bottom now to find victims to send to the front lines to be killed.  They can't win.  They need to negotiate peace.  We need to stop wasting money.  People who think this war is good for our economy are sick f***s.

Getting Nazis (and NATO) out of Kiev will no doubt be part of the settlement.

nan said:

You are not facing reality.  J. D. Vance focuses on the big issues in this war.  Ukraine has lost and they are scraping the bottom now to find victims to send to the front lines to be killed.  They can't win.  They need to negotiate peace.  We need to stop wasting money.  People who think this war is good for our economy are sick f***s.

Getting Nazis (and NATO) out of Kiev will no doubt be part of the settlement.

But isn't the reason for the war issue #1?  You spouting propaganda just by saying they lost the war.  The question is - why did they lose - what goal has Russia achieved?  There must be metrics.  Is it because they have successfully decimated a sovereign country = they won?

When Congress votes this week to increase aid to Israel, there is a good chance that the aid package will include Ukraine and perhaps Taiwan.    Unhappily, in this world, freedom, and especially freedom of democratic countries needs to be defended against tyrants and colonialists.   And yes, I know the US has an awful history of being on the wrong side of these matters....but we also have a long history of supporting freedom.   

The only way Russia will defeat Ukraine is through a long war of attrition.   Russia has lots and lots of troops and weapons.  But with the right support, Ukraine can win.  

nan said:

You are not facing reality.  J. D. Vance focuses on the big issues in this war.  Ukraine has lost and they are scraping the bottom now to find victims to send to the front lines to be killed.  They can't win.  They need to negotiate peace.  We need to stop wasting money.  People who think this war is good for our economy are sick f***s.

Getting Nazis (and NATO) out of Kiev will no doubt be part of the settlement.

The sick f***s are the ones who parrot Putin’s phony “justification” for killing Ukrainians.

Think about this for a moment. If Putin defeats Ukraine, Iran destroys Israel and China takes Taiwan by force, how secure would anyone in America feel then? All this mumbo jumbo is only fueling our enemies to destroy us ultimately. 
We must defend Israel and Ukraine right now. We can leave the infighting and differences aside for now. 

JD Vance as the voice of reason.

nan said:

jamie said:

nan said:

Voice of reason on the Ukraine war in a NYTs OpEd.  Sad to see it comes from the Republicans because the Democrats swim in the neocon lane now.  We are down to the last Ukrainians and weapons/ammo are running dry too.  Also, he calls out those who celebrate profit from death and destruction.  Time to negotiate peace on reasonable, not fantasy terms.

J.D. Vance: The Math on Ukraine Doesn’t Add Up

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/opinion/jd-vance-ukraine.html

I don't see anything in here in regards to the biggest Nazi scourge since WWII?  If this is the case - why aren't we joining up with Russia on this front?  And again - how many Nazis are left - who is their current leader.

If one of the main goals was denazification - this needs to be addressed first and foremost.

This war will never end until the nazis are defeated.  Now , who and where are they at the moment?

You are not facing reality.  J. D. Vance focuses on the big issues in this war.  Ukraine has lost and they are scraping the bottom now to find victims to send to the front lines to be killed.  They can't win.  They need to negotiate peace.  We need to stop wasting money.  People who think this war is good for our economy are sick f***s.

Getting Nazis (and NATO) out of Kiev will no doubt be part of the settlement.

I haven't really heard anybody hear talk about the economic benefits of supporting Ukraine.  Sure, it's great if you are in a 155 mm shell plant, but in general we'd all rather spend on infrastructure.  Is this something that you podcasts told you was a thing.

And please stop bleating about Nazis in Ukraine when Putin's behavior is the most Fascist we have seen in Europe for many a year.

jamie said:

nan said:

You are not facing reality.  J. D. Vance focuses on the big issues in this war.  Ukraine has lost and they are scraping the bottom now to find victims to send to the front lines to be killed.  They can't win.  They need to negotiate peace.  We need to stop wasting money.  People who think this war is good for our economy are sick f***s.

Getting Nazis (and NATO) out of Kiev will no doubt be part of the settlement.

But isn't the reason for the war issue #1?  You spouting propaganda just by saying they lost the war.  The question is - why did they lose - what goal has Russia achieved?  There must be metrics.  Is it because they have successfully decimated a sovereign country = they won?

Ukraine does or did have a significant Nazi problem--this was frequently written about in even mainstream news until the invasion. Then Nazis such as the Azov Battalion were viewed as heroes.  Russia launched a war of attrition.  Their goal was to demilitarize Ukraine and they did that and much of the West as well.  They were not after territory (except Crimea which is essential).  

Anyway, it's not propaganda to say Ukraine has lost.  It's even being slowly admitted in corporate news (on some days).  The US goal for this war was to weaken Russia, take down Putin and then break it up and have a vulture capitalist 1990s style field day.  Instead, Russia survived and thrived 13-14 sanctions packages and now have 6% economic growth.  Europe, OTHOH, is falling into recession and may never recover. All their cheap gas is gone.  Germany used to be a powerhouse but is now experiencing de-industrialization.    We are not doing so well either. The US dollar as the reserve currency is in big trouble.  Biden has really done a number on our country's standing in the world. Letting neocons run your government is never a good idea.  

RobertRoe said:

When Congress votes this week to increase aid to Israel, there is a good chance that the aid package will include Ukraine and perhaps Taiwan.    Unhappily, in this world, freedom, and especially freedom of democratic countries needs to be defended against tyrants and colonialists.   And yes, I know the US has an awful history of being on the wrong side of these matters....but we also have a long history of supporting freedom.   

The only way Russia will defeat Ukraine is through a long war of attrition.   Russia has lots and lots of troops and weapons.  But with the right support, Ukraine can win.  

We are not about defending freedom; we are about sitting on top of the world and ordering everyone else around. Things are changing and we are not adapting. Engaging in proxy wars has been a disaster and I hope the people in Taiwan see Ukraine as a cautionary tale.  As a proxy, you get used up and then abandoned.

Russia has already defeated Ukraine and the west because they have destroyed almost all the Ukrainians and survived and thrived the many sanctions packages.  The only way Ukraine can win is if NATO and the west enter the conflict and even that is not a sure thing.  NATO/Western weapons were not the superstars they were advertised to be and not as abundant either. That's also WWIII and probably nuclear war.  Are you OK with nuclear war over Ukraine? 

The best way for this to end is for both sides to engage in diplomacy and work this out.  Otherwise even more younger Ukrainians are going to die for nothing and eventually we are all doomed . 

nohero said:

nan said:

You are not facing reality.  J. D. Vance focuses on the big issues in this war.  Ukraine has lost and they are scraping the bottom now to find victims to send to the front lines to be killed.  They can't win.  They need to negotiate peace.  We need to stop wasting money.  People who think this war is good for our economy are sick f***s.

Getting Nazis (and NATO) out of Kiev will no doubt be part of the settlement.

The sick f***s are the ones who parrot Putin’s phony “justification” for killing Ukrainians.

So, people who brag about the Ukraine war being good for our economy are acceptable?  

Jaytee said:

Think about this for a moment. If Putin defeats Ukraine, Iran destroys Israel and China takes Taiwan by force, how secure would anyone in America feel then? All this mumbo jumbo is only fueling our enemies to destroy us ultimately. 
We must defend Israel and Ukraine right now. We can leave the infighting and differences aside for now. 

Putin has already defeated Ukraine and Taiwan is part of China and Israel just blew up an Iranian embassy--and Iran does not seem to want a big war, no matter how much Israel does.  

We are not going to out power these "enemies."  The world is changing. We should be trying to get along with them.  The more we continue to act like we run the world, the more isolated we will be.  That's what is making us feel less secure--and it's a real concern.  

drummerboy said:

JD Vance as the voice of reason.

Instead of personal attacks, can you read the op ed and tell us where you disagree?  

nan said:

Russia launched a war of attrition.  Their goal was to demilitarize Ukraine and they did that and much of the West as well.  They were not after territory (except Crimea which is essential).  

Oh, they only needed part of the country they bombed and invaded. Great excuse. I cannot imagine why anyone would say, “This is a good thing, I support this.”

And then, there’s the “whatabout” -

nan said:

nohero said:

nan said:

People who think this war is good for our economy are sick f***s.

Getting Nazis (and NATO) out of Kiev will no doubt be part of the settlement.

The sick f***s are the ones who parrot Putin’s phony “justification” for killing Ukrainians.

So, people who brag about the Ukraine war being good for our economy are acceptable?  

Here’s another JD Vance rant about Ukraine for the Vance fans out there:

“At the same time that world leaders play armchair general with the Ukraine conflict, their own societies are decaying.

“Not a single country - not even the US - within the NATO alliance has birthrates at replacement level. We don't have enough families and children to continue as a nation and yet we're talking about problems 6,000 miles away.

“We're being invaded by up to 10 million illegal migrants over the course of Joe Biden's term in office, and we have apparently no president with the willpower to stop that problem.

“What are we doing, ladies and gentlemen? China and Russia, if we want them to fear us we need to rebuild our own countries. We need to rebuild a strong Europe and a strong America.”

https://x.com/jdvance1/status/1757156370871128386?s=46&t=kGDZHidFJt92GAt4ntXO9Q

Anti-immigrant politicians talking about the need for more "European" babies feel a bit... what's the word I'm looking for? Feel like it's related to the Italian word for "face."

nan said:

So, people who brag about the Ukraine war being good for our economy are acceptable?  

and who are those people exactly?

pointing out that most of the money spent is actually paid to US companies is not bragging about the Ukraine war being good for our economy. it's simply a counter to those propagandists who insist that the money spent is just disappearing into a great hole of Ukrainian corruption. Is lying like that acceptable to you?

nan said:

drummerboy said:

JD Vance as the voice of reason.

Instead of personal attacks, can you read the op ed and tell us where you disagree?  

we really need to go over what constitutes a personal attack.

that ain't one.

it was a combination of irony and snark and a cultural reference you may or may not get.

nohero said:

Here’s another JD Vance rant about Ukraine for the Vance fans out there:

“At the same time that world leaders play armchair general with the Ukraine conflict, their own societies are decaying.

“Not a single country - not even the US - within the NATO alliance has birthrates at replacement level. We don't have enough families and children to continue as a nation and yet we're talking about problems 6,000 miles away.

“We're being invaded by up to 10 million illegal migrants over the course of Joe Biden's term in office, and we have apparently no president with the willpower to stop that problem.

“What are we doing, ladies and gentlemen? China and Russia, if we want them to fear us we need to rebuild our own countries. We need to rebuild a strong Europe and a strong America.”

https://x.com/jdvance1/status/1757156370871128386?s=46&t=kGDZHidFJt92GAt4ntXO9Q

All the more reason to not let him outsmart the Democrats on Ukraine.  He's right about that. 

drummerboy said:

nan said:

So, people who brag about the Ukraine war being good for our economy are acceptable?  

and who are those people exactly?

pointing out that most of the money spent is actually paid to US companies is not bragging about the Ukraine war being good for our economy. it's simply a counter to those propagandists who insist that the money spent is just disappearing into a great hole of Ukrainian corruption. Is lying like that acceptable to you?

I've seen multiple talking heads on mainstream talk shows making the case that the Ukraine war is good for the US economy.  The only names I remember right now are Lindsey Graham and Adam Schiff--but there were more--I will try to put together a list.

Edited to add:  I just googled and there were tons of article stating that the Ukraine war was good for the US economy (some were behind paywalls).

The money disappearing does not contradict the advantage of military industrial profit--in fact the more that disappears the more that is needed. 

drummerboy said:

nan said:

drummerboy said:

JD Vance as the voice of reason.

Instead of personal attacks, can you read the op ed and tell us where you disagree?  

we really need to go over what constitutes a personal attack.

that ain't one.

it was a combination of irony and snark and a cultural reference you may or may not get.

Ok, fine.  Are you going to read the actual op ed and tell us why it's wrong or are you just going to continue to change the subject?

nan said:

drummerboy said:

nan said:

drummerboy said:

JD Vance as the voice of reason.

Instead of personal attacks, can you read the op ed and tell us where you disagree?  

we really need to go over what constitutes a personal attack.

that ain't one.

it was a combination of irony and snark and a cultural reference you may or may not get.

Ok, fine.  Are you going to read the actual op ed and tell us why it's wrong or are you just going to continue to change the subject?

I can't begin to express the utter lack of desire I have to read anything written by JD Vance. The chance that it would give me any insight or useful information is basically zero.