What does Putin want (and whatabout it)

nohero said:

I think they're missing out on a huge opportunity if they ignore the "progressive" market for this product.

What about the “peace activists”. ??? 
Maybe our very own “progressive” has migrated already….


What does Putin (not) want? 

Joint Declaration by Ukraine and Germany

"The President of Ukraine and the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany reiterated their unequivocal condemnation of Russia’s ongoing war of aggression against Ukraine. Ukraine has shown remarkable determination in exercising its inherent right to self-defence against this illegal, unprovoked and unjustifiable attack. Russia must immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders. ...

"No country wants peace more than Ukraine. Germany supports Ukraine’s initiative for a just and sustainable peace in line with the UN Charter and based on Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity as stipulated in President Zelenkyy's Peace Formula, which is a basis for further discussion."


What Putin Does Want - more phony "peace activists" with offensive arguments ("The Ukrainians are taking the food out of the mouths of hungry American children!!!!")


nohero said:

What Putin Does Want - more phony "peace activists" with offensive arguments ("The Ukrainians are taking the food out of the mouths of hungry American children!!!!")

RFK Jr. is entirely correct. There's nothing "offensive" at all in his argument.


jamie said:

Daniel L Davis a reliable source? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

He's as pro-Putin as it gets.  He pretty much parrots the NATO redline

Care to show any critique he has made in regards tor the absolute destruction of a sovereign nation - and the need to kill all nazis?

Do you really think the threat of NATO expansion was a just reason for the war Vlad has conducted and justifies the slaughtering of tens of thousands of his own troops?

Anyone who questions the official war narrative is automatically "pro-Putin," which pretty much renders the term meaningless.


paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

What Putin Does Want - more phony "peace activists" with offensive arguments ("The Ukrainians are taking the food out of the mouths of hungry American children!!!!")

RFK Jr. is entirely correct. There's nothing "offensive" at all in his argument.

The words "People are going hungry to fund a war", about children in the U.S., are right in his tweet, and it's bull caca.

[Edited to add] Hi, Nan!


Scott Ritter would HateHateHate it here in SOMa. 


paulsurovell said:

RFK Jr. is entirely correct. There's nothing "offensive" at all in his argument.

I agree it's not offensive. It's too dumb for that. Disagree? List all the members of the House and Senate who would agree to increase food stamps if funding for Ukraine were cut.


Some food for thought -

"Yes, the people of Ukraine understand that this war is about the sanctity of borders and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity. And yes, they understand that it is about ensuring the victory of a democratic society over a ruthless dictatorship. But for most Ukrainians that I spoke with, there is a much simpler truth about this war, namely this: a heavily-armed, murderous regime is trying to kill them, erase their identity and colonize their land. That is what they are living through right now."

https://osce.usmission.gov/the-russian-federations-ongoing-aggression-against-ukraine-52/


Remember the peace position -- if only Ukraine had preemptively agreed to remain colonized in the first place, this current situation where the rest of the world cares about Ukraine could have been avoided. 

One aspect of this situation I've been interested to see is how the various economic measures have been playing out. The sanctions in general seem to have been effective in reducing European dependence on Russia, but mixed at best at hampering Russia's war efforts. The price cap on oil, on the other hand, looks like it might be more effective on that latter measure:

An Untested Oil Price Cap Has Helped Choke Revenue to Russia (NYT)

Data from Russia and international agencies suggest Moscow’s revenues have dropped, forcing budget choices that administration officials say could be starting to hamper its war effort. Drivers in America and elsewhere are paying far less at the gasoline pump than some analysts feared.

Russia’s oil revenues in March were down 43 percent from a year earlier, the International Energy Agency reported last month, even though its total export sales volume had grown. This week, the agency reported that Russian revenues had rebounded slightly but were still down 27 percent from a year ago. The government’s tax receipts from the oil and gas sectors were down by nearly two-thirds from a year ago.

Russian officials have been forced to change how they tax oil production in an apparent bid to make up for some of the lost revenues. They also appear to be spending government money to try to start building their own network of ships, insurance companies and other essentials of the oil trade, an effort that European and American officials say is a clear sign of success.

PVW said:

paulsurovell said:

RFK Jr. is entirely correct. There's nothing "offensive" at all in his argument.

I agree it's not offensive. It's too dumb for that. Disagree? List all the members of the House and Senate who would agree to increase food stamps if funding for Ukraine were cut.

Further illustrating the point:

Republicans are pushing instead for higher defense spending and more significant domestic spending reductions, the people said, posing a challenge to White House negotiators aiming to resolve the debt ceiling standoff without agreeing to what they see as draconian changes to federal programs.

(NYT, GOP rejects White House compromise to limit spending as talks stall)

This idea that there's some trade trade off happening between support for Ukraine and support for domestic programs is ridiculous, and people who make such claims are ridiculous.


The latest list of people sanctioned by Russia include those who are on the list solely because Donald Trump assails them.  It's been suggested that Putin's long-term strategy in Ukraine is to hold out until Trump is elected again (and who knows if he can find a way to help that along?)

"Russia has expanded its list of sanctioned Americans in a tit-for-tat retaliation for the latest curbs imposed by the United States. But what is particularly striking is how much President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia is adopting perceived enemies of former President Donald J. Trump as his own.

"Among the 500 people singled out for travel and financial restrictions on Friday were Americans seen as adversaries by Mr. Trump, including Letitia James, the state attorney general of New York who has investigated and sued him. Brad Raffensperger, the secretary of state of Georgia who rebuffed Mr. Trump’s pressure to reverse the outcome of the 2020 election, also made the list. And Lt. Michael Byrd, the Capitol Police officer who shot the pro-Trump rioter Ashli Babbitt on Jan. 6, 2021, was another notable name.

"None of those three has anything to do with Russia policy and the only reason they would have come to Moscow’s attention is because Mr. Trump has publicly assailed them."

Russia’s Latest Sanctions on U.S. Officials Turn to Trump Enemies - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


Isn't it crazy that Russia is complaining about Ukraine sabotaging them?  Why wouldn't they have 100% justification in any retaliation?  Is anything that Russia is doing legal?


Supporter jamie
said:

Isn't it crazy that Russia is complaining about Ukraine sabotaging them?  Why wouldn't they have 100% justification in any retaliation?  Is anything that Russia is doing legal?

This is a legitimate point.


I fear that Ukraine will lose a war of attrition since Russia has many more soldiers, missiles, and resources.  If you saw the photos of Bakmute, Russia simply blew everything to rubble. No wonder that the Ukrainians are fighting so hard. Russia has been cruel to Ukraine for two hundred or more years. But it is far from over and Ukraine has shown a fierceness that can win.  


RobertRoe said:

I fear that Ukraine will lose a war of attrition since Russia has many more soldiers, missiles, and resources.  If you saw the photos of Bakmute, Russia simply blew everything to rubble. No wonder that the Ukrainians are fighting so hard. Russia has been cruel to Ukraine for two hundred or more years. But it is far from over and Ukraine has shown a fierceness that can win.  

Several times on this thread Paul has asked if I think Ukraine is winning, and I've replied that it really depends on what one means by "winning," but it's clear that Russia has lost.

What I mean by this is that Russia's goal, of a Ukraine that ceases to be a distinct cultural, social, and political entity but becomes in whole or part a de-facto or de-jure part of Russia, is lost forever. It is true that Russians and Ukrainians have a very close and intertwined history. And it's plausible that, had history (and Putin) taken a different road, "Ukrainian" might have become to "Russian" something like "Cornish" is to "English." But, as you note in your post here, Russia's actions have inspired a fierce and dogged resistance to Russia. Putin has done more to forge a strong sense of Ukrainian nationalism than probably anyone.

I don't know how this war will end -- how much territory will Russia control, how much will Ukraine, when will it end, what will the terms be -- and however it ends, it feels inappropriate at best to characterize the grievous suffering and loss Ukrainians have been enduring as "winning." But Putin and Russia have absolutely and permanently lost Ukraine.


It's incredible how the U.S. and NATO are somehow responsible for putting this idea into Putin's head about Ukraine. 


Jeopardy! trivia:

In tonight's Masters Final the question was ~ "What private military company is fighting for Russia in Ukraine?"

Response: six deer-in-headlights eyes.


yes - and you and nan were very unfamiliar with their connection to Vlad at the start of this "Special Operation".


it was fascinating when we first were talking about Wagner - a certain someone - ignored the claim of their Nazi leader and immediately spun the Kremlin propaganda with 2 sentences.  

We already talked about the Wagner group. The Russians hired them to fight. We have no control over that. We have control over how we spend our tax dollars and I don't like them being spent on training Nazis.

And as always - never any stats on the denazification process.  Who is the current Nazi leader in Ukraine?  Who was the leader - was he/she eliminated?  If so - who was it?


jamie said:

And as always - never any stats on the denazification process.  Who is the current Nazi leader in Ukraine?  Who was the leader - was he/she eliminated?  If so - who was it?

This is like you trying to talk sense into a family member who refuses to seek treatment for his drug addiction ….not even a family intervention would produce any sincere response to the question. He has just pushed the nazi issue into the furthest chamber of his brain. 


paulsurovell said:

Jeopardy! trivia:

In tonight's Masters Final the question was ~ "What private military company is fighting for Russia in Ukraine?"

Response: six deer-in-headlights eyes.

The fact that happened isn't even significant enough to call "trivia".

Although, was that the question they were supposed to give in response? (It's Jeopardy, "answer in the form of a question")


The phrasing was a bit inaccurate too - it should be This private army has been HIRED by Putin to commit genocide on the Ukrainian people and wipe out a nation and culture.  When you say a private army is fighting for someone - it could imply that they're doing in on their own initiative.


nohero said:

It's incredible how the U.S. and NATO are somehow responsible for putting this idea into Putin's head about Ukraine. 

Map update - 

Putin Claims Map Proves Ukraine Isn't Real Despite It Saying 'Ukraine' (businessinsider.com)

Normally "heads will roll" is just an expression, not a literal prediction, but ...


Pablo pronounces Wagner as Vagner.

Not only in Ukraine is Wagner committing genocide, Africa is, and has been for years. These people are downright evil bastards. 


Regarding the issue of Nazis in Ukraine, the phrasing in this NYT article on Wednesday is pretty accurate (my bold):

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/24/world/europe/russia-border-attack-ukraine.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Analysts of Russian politics said that the attack might stir discontent
over incompetence in the military among pro-war groups, but that it
could also offer Mr. Putin an opportunity to try to rally people around
the flag. Already, the Kremlin has said that the raiders had abandoned
American-made military vehicles inside Russia, and Moscow can use the
far-right histories of some of the raiders to bolster its largely false
claim to be fighting Nazis in Ukraine.


nohero said:

nohero said:

It's incredible how the U.S. and NATO are somehow responsible for putting this idea into Putin's head about Ukraine. 

Map update - 

Putin Claims Map Proves Ukraine Isn't Real Despite It Saying 'Ukraine' (businessinsider.com)

Normally "heads will roll" is just an expression, not a literal prediction, but ...

Does it say that Ukraine is a country?


paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

nohero said:

It's incredible how the U.S. and NATO are somehow responsible for putting this idea into Putin's head about Ukraine. 

Map update - 

Putin Claims Map Proves Ukraine Isn't Real Despite It Saying 'Ukraine' (businessinsider.com)

Normally "heads will roll" is just an expression, not a literal prediction, but ...

Does it say that Ukraine is a country?

It says Ukraine existed when the map was made, which defenestrates Putin's claim.


paulsurovell said:

Regarding the issue of Nazis in Ukraine, the phrasing in this NYT article on Wednesday is pretty accurate (my bold):

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/24/world/europe/russia-border-attack-ukraine.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Analysts of Russian politics said that the attack might stir discontent
over incompetence in the military among pro-war groups, but that it
could also offer Mr. Putin an opportunity to try to rally people around
the flag. Already, the Kremlin has said that the raiders had abandoned
American-made military vehicles inside Russia, and Moscow can use the
far-right histories of some of the raiders to bolster its largely false
claim to be fighting Nazis in Ukraine.

Well, I'm glad you've changed your position on this, then.


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