Bomb Iran?
You will be home before the leaves fall from the trees.” ... Kaiser Wilhelm II, August 1914, addressing German troops leaving for the front. In the summer of 1914
Apr 9, 2015 at 12:09pm Edited
"You will be home before the leaves fall from the trees.” ... Kaiser Wilhelm II, August 1914, addressing German troops leaving for the front. In the summer of 1914
"The Russian is finished!" "Yes, it is uncommonly beginning to look like it." Quote from Hitler in July 1942, and Field Marshall Kleist's reply.
"The Russian is finished!" "Yes, it is uncommonly beginning to look like it." Quote from Hitler in July 1942, and Field Marshall Kleist's reply.
TylerDurden said:
Hitler didn't even give his troops winter gear.
And von Rumsfeld said:
"I can't tell you if the use of force in Iraq today would last five days, or five weeks, or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."
and
"As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time. Since the Iraq conflict began, the Army has been pressing ahead to produce the armor necessary at a rate that they believe -- it's a greatly expanded rate from what existed previously, but a rate that they believe is the rate that is all that can be accomplished at this moment."
ParticleMan said:
Or a nice playlist1:TylerDurden said:
ParticleMan said:
I believe that would violate the Geneva Convention.TylerDurden said:
So we're just going to write off this Lindsey Buckingham idea?!?!?!
Maybe we can send them the Dee Dee Ramone Rap record.
We Built This City, Starship
Achy Breaky Heart, Billy Ray Cyrus
Everybody Have Fun Tonight, Wang Chung
Rollin', Limpbizkit
Ice Ice Baby, Vanilla Ice
The Heart of Rock & Roll, Huey Lewis & The News
Don't Worry, Be Happy, Bobby McFerrin
Party All the Time, Eddie Murphy
American Life, Madonna
Ebony and Ivory, Paul McCartney, Stevie Wonder
Great list of torturous music
The Iranians have made it clear they will insist on ALL sanctions being lifted when an agreement is signed. They have been vague about inspections but seem unlikely to accept 'intrusive', unannounced inspections.
These may simply be bargaining positions, but suppose they aren't. Suppose they insist on one or both. Do we accept such a deal or walk away?
If we accept I would say we have a lousy deal. If we walk away, how do we keep the promise Obama has voiced numerous times, 'Iran will not get the bomb'?
These may simply be bargaining positions, but suppose they aren't. Suppose they insist on one or both. Do we accept such a deal or walk away?
If we accept I would say we have a lousy deal. If we walk away, how do we keep the promise Obama has voiced numerous times, 'Iran will not get the bomb'?
Nice little article about how we invade, screw up, get millions of locals killed, and go do it again:
http://www.salon.com/2015/04/10/ambassador_us_handed_cambodia_to_butcher_40_years_ago/
http://www.salon.com/2015/04/10/ambassador_us_handed_cambodia_to_butcher_40_years_ago/
Apr 10, 2015 at 7:00am Edited
knowlton said:
How can we bomb a country, again, that has done nothing to us???
This is just one instance. I suggest you read the entire article. It will take some time but you may have a different view when you finish.
'The 1996 Khobar Towers bombing, killing 19 US servicemen. On December 22, 2006, federal judge Royce C. Lamberth ruled that Iran was responsible for the attack, stating "The totality of the evidence at trial...firmly establishes that the Khobar Towers bombing was planned, funded, and sponsored by senior leadership in the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran. The defendants' conduct in facilitating, financing, and providing material support to bring about this attack was intentional, extreme, and outrageous."[27] '
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terrorism#Kenya
Apr 10, 2015 at 8:40am Edited
Does anyone remember the Iran-Iraq war? We supported Iraq in this senseless bloodbath and the Iranians sent wave upon wave upon wave of young kids to cross through the Iraqi minefields so that regular Army troops could follow.
It may be the case that that kind of fervor does not exist, but if we attacked than perhaps we would re-kindle it. So, all those hoping for a war, Iran has numerous options that would be difficult for us to counter -- an assault across the gulf on Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi and more troops to the Yemen and then an army or two into Iraq and massive arms delivery to the Palestinians. Iran has the absolute ability to completely de-stabilize the Middle East and if we attack we will accomplish that.
If anyone on this board thinks we can can conquer Iran without using nuclear weapons they are deluded. We would lose tens of thousands of soldiers in any kind of assault and invasion and every day would be a bloodbath. Our ability to do the so-called pinpoint bombing may knock out a power plant or weapons site, but unless we have boots on the ground, they will start over and never agree to a deal. And it would be in the Russians' interest to aid Iran in this if we did attack. While we are attacking what would Putin do? Crap in his pants? No. He would mass troops along the Ukraine again and along the Baltics. Then what do the warmongers say we should do if that happens?
And if we did use a nuke or two or ten, all bets are off world-wide on not using them. How would we ever get a nation to restrain from developing, buying or using them?
Iran has the potential of being divided if we can make it look like the hardliners THERE killed the deal. If THEY kill the deal the sanctions stay in place and can even be ratcheted up further.
If WE kill the deal due to OUR own version of the Ayatollahs, the Republicans, then we let them off the hook, perhaps getting the population to swing towards the hardliners.
The only reason Iran is at the table is that sanctions can, indeed, work.
It may be the case that that kind of fervor does not exist, but if we attacked than perhaps we would re-kindle it. So, all those hoping for a war, Iran has numerous options that would be difficult for us to counter -- an assault across the gulf on Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi and more troops to the Yemen and then an army or two into Iraq and massive arms delivery to the Palestinians. Iran has the absolute ability to completely de-stabilize the Middle East and if we attack we will accomplish that.
If anyone on this board thinks we can can conquer Iran without using nuclear weapons they are deluded. We would lose tens of thousands of soldiers in any kind of assault and invasion and every day would be a bloodbath. Our ability to do the so-called pinpoint bombing may knock out a power plant or weapons site, but unless we have boots on the ground, they will start over and never agree to a deal. And it would be in the Russians' interest to aid Iran in this if we did attack. While we are attacking what would Putin do? Crap in his pants? No. He would mass troops along the Ukraine again and along the Baltics. Then what do the warmongers say we should do if that happens?
And if we did use a nuke or two or ten, all bets are off world-wide on not using them. How would we ever get a nation to restrain from developing, buying or using them?
Iran has the potential of being divided if we can make it look like the hardliners THERE killed the deal. If THEY kill the deal the sanctions stay in place and can even be ratcheted up further.
If WE kill the deal due to OUR own version of the Ayatollahs, the Republicans, then we let them off the hook, perhaps getting the population to swing towards the hardliners.
The only reason Iran is at the table is that sanctions can, indeed, work.
Jude said:
Does anyone remember the Iran-Iraq war?
Those who forget history are forced to repeat it.
But those who remember are most often also out of luck.
If we were a moral nation, our next diplomatic maneuver would be an apology. We overthrew their democratically elected leader for oil. We are simply reaping what we've sown.
Are Nations moral or immoral?
Many would say that morality has nothing to do with politics.
Many would say that morality has nothing to do with politics.
And yet we put high level Nazis on trial for carrying out their Country's laws.
LOST said:
Are Nations moral or immoral?
Many would say that morality has nothing to do with politics.
It's a good point. We certainly do not have the moral ground much of the time any longer. Even, IMO, with our dealings w/ the Russian Bear.
Empires usually are pretty immoral when you get around to it. "Might Makes Right" isn't much of a compelling moral argument. Though, I suppose its effective enough.
Jude said:
Does anyone remember the Iran-Iraq war? We supported Iraq in this senseless bloodbath and the Iranians sent wave upon wave upon wave of young kids to cross through the Iraqi minefields so that regular Army troops could follow.
It may be the case that that kind of fervor does not exist, but if we attacked than perhaps we would re-kindle it. So, all those hoping for a war, Iran has numerous options that would be difficult for us to counter -- an assault across the gulf on Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi and more troops to the Yemen and then an army or two into Iraq and massive arms delivery to the Palestinians. Iran has the absolute ability to completely de-stabilize the Middle East and if we attack we will accomplish that.
If anyone on this board thinks we can can conquer Iran without using nuclear weapons they are deluded. We would lose tens of thousands of soldiers in any kind of assault and invasion and every day would be a bloodbath. Our ability to do the so-called pinpoint bombing may knock out a power plant or weapons site, but unless we have boots on the ground, they will start over and never agree to a deal. And it would be in the Russians' interest to aid Iran in this if we did attack. While we are attacking what would Putin do? Crap in his pants? No. He would mass troops along the Ukraine again and along the Baltics. Then what do the warmongers say we should do if that happens?
And if we did use a nuke or two or ten, all bets are off world-wide on not using them. How would we ever get a nation to restrain from developing, buying or using them?
Iran has the potential of being divided if we can make it look like the hardliners THERE killed the deal. If THEY kill the deal the sanctions stay in place and can even be ratcheted up further.
If WE kill the deal due to OUR own version of the Ayatollahs, the Republicans, then we let them off the hook, perhaps getting the population to swing towards the hardliners.
The only reason Iran is at the table is that sanctions can, indeed, work.
It is the Republicans who are pushing sanctions if the talks fail. Sen Corker is close to getting a veto proof majority to override a veto of the bill he is proposing, with the support of a number of important Democrats like Kaine and Schumer.
There is no 'hook'. If the talks fail we will blame them and they will blame us, and if Khamenei holds to his position and the talks do indeed fail, who do you think he and the anti-Americans will blame none the less?
'Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the final say for Iran on the deal, on Thursday ruled out any "extraordinary supervision measures" over nuclear activities and said military sites could not be inspected.'
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-deal-could-stumble-on-sensitive-nuclear-monitoring-396725
LOST said:
And yet we put high level Nazis on trial for carrying out their Country's laws.
They wrote the laws.
OTOH I doubt anyone can come up with a list of moral major countries, and other than maybe Costa Rica, any small ones.
How things change over time. Now Bibi and the Republicans are talking sanctions and the Administration is talking bombs.
"We have the capability to shut down, set back and destroy the Iranian nuclear program and I believe the Iranians know that and understand that."
US Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter addressed the possibility of a military option against Iran, saying that bunker busting bombs, meant to penetrate Iran's underground facilities, are "ready to go."
Speaking to CNN in an interview aired Saturday morning, Carter said that the deal between Iran and the P5+1, the basics of which were recently laid out in during negotiations in Switzerland, will hinge not on "trust but rather on "verification."
"We have the capability to shut down, set back and destroy the Iranian nuclear program and I believe the Iranians know that and understand that," Carter said, indicating the US's willingness to utilize high-powered bombs if Tehran does not abide by the deal reached in the Swiss resort town where the various delegations were hosted during the eight day marathon negotiations. '
http://www.jpost.com/International/US-Sec-Defense-on-Iran-nuclear-facilities-Bunker-buster-bombs-ready-to-go-396749
BCC said:
It is the Republicans who are pushing sanctions if the talks fail. Sen Corker is close to getting a veto proof majority to override a veto of the bill he is proposing, with the support of a number of important Democrats like Kaine and Schumer.
If the Corker-Menendez bill is passed without amendments that make it acceptable to the White House, it is highly unlikely that it will pass with a veto-proof majority.
BCC said:
There is no 'hook'. If the talks fail we will blame them and they will blame us, and if Khamenei holds to his position and the talks do indeed fail, who do you think he and the anti-Americans will blame none the less?
The hardcore-hardline segment of Iranian society will blame America, but most Iranians will blame Khameini. If the deal fails because of his comments the other day, it will be a major boost for the opposition -- unless the US bombs, in which case it will be a major boost for the hardliners with unpredictable consequences for the Middle East, including Israel.
BCC said:
'Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the final say for Iran on the deal, on Thursday ruled out any "extraordinary supervision measures" over nuclear activities and said military sites could not be inspected.'
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-deal-could-stumble-on-sensitive-nuclear-monitoring-396725
In a joint statement with the EU, Iran agreed that:
The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) will be permitted the use of modern technologies and will have enhanced access through agreed procedures, including to clarify past and present issues.
It also agreed in that statement and in its own fact-sheet, to ratify the IAEA's "Additional Protocol," which as far as I can see, has no limits on what sites can be inspected.
The texts are on the "Netanyahu" thread.
I think it is likely that the differences between what Iran agreed to in the talks and what Khameini said this week are more rhetorical than substantive. But we shall see.
yahooyahoo said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPRonG87eKw
It sounds like they are singing Bomb, Bomb, Bomb..... Bomb Bomb Iran
Many of you may remember John McCain's succinct 2007 cover version...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg
I believe that the Israelis will take matters into their own hands. 2 or 3 jericho III IRBM's with 100kt warheads would stop the Iranian nuke program, with finality. Israel has its back to the sea and is and should be concerned about this half measure agreement with the Iranians. Israel has shown great restraint but now we have Iran so close to having nuclear capabilities that Israel's options are act or be acted upon. A 50kt air burst over Tehran or Tel aviv, which one does Israel choose?
Apr 17, 2015 at 8:24am Edited
dave said:
BCC said:
dave said:
Those demands won't be met and Khamenei knows it.
And if they're not, what then?
It goes forward. He's not the only political game in town. He's just doing what he needs to do to maintain hardliner support.
He isn't? Who else is there?
In Iran the Mullahs have run things since they threw out the Shah. The only ones who might supplant Khamenei are the Revolutionary Guards, the guys with the guns, and so far they have taken their orders from him, and they think he's given away too much.
Who will push the negotiations forward?
BTW I am no longer bkc. I changed to BCC some time ago.
Apr 17, 2015 at 8:28am Edited
Paul
Most Iranians will blame Khameini.? A major boost for the opposition?
So what!
Even if true, and you don't know it is, that is hardly likely to change who is running the country.
The Iranian media is controlled by the government. Guess who they will blame.
Further:
'Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the final say for Iran on the deal, on Thursday ruled out any "extraordinary supervision measures" over nuclear activities and said military sites could not be inspected.'
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-deal-could-stumble-on-sensitive-nuclear-monitoring-396725
He hasn't accepted 'intrusive inspections' or inspections of military bases since the negotiations began. We should not accept such a deal and I think we would have a good case no matter who tries to blame us.
bkc said:
Paul
Most Iranians will blame Khameini.? A major boost for the opposition?
So what!
Even if true, and you don't know it is, that is hardly likely to change who is running the country.
The Iranian media is controlled by the government. Guess who they will blame.
Further:
'Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the final say for Iran on the deal, on Thursday ruled out any "extraordinary supervision measures" over nuclear activities and said military sites could not be inspected.'
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-deal-could-stumble-on-sensitive-nuclear-monitoring-396725He hasn't accepted 'intrusive inspections' or inspections of military bases since the negotiations began. We should not accept such a deal and I think we would have a good case no matter who tries to blame us.
Or this could be posturing during negotiations, which often happens. The posturing isn't the deal, of course, so we should wait to see what the deal turns out to be.
In the meantime, he's trying to make his hardliners happy. It just so happens that it also provokes a reaction from those folks who won't be happy unless there are some dead Muslims from bombing.
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