South Orange BOT election
Red_Barchetta said:
Runner_Guy said:I'm not sure of your point here. Do you believe that there could be any development anywhere in SO (or MW) that would add an inch to the street grid?
Street paving is the best example of how accepting density improves SO's budget situation.
When SO allows a new apartment building, even with hundreds of people living there, it doesn't add an inch to the street grid that SO has to plow, protect, and periodically resurface.
Yeah, I could see it. For example, what if Orange Lawn Tennis Club sold off their land for townhouses, which might initially have private roads, but could at some point, be assumed by South Orange as public roads. It happens elsewhere.
marylago said:
Red_Barchetta said:Yeah, I could see it. For example, what if Orange Lawn Tennis Club sold off their land for townhouses, which might initially have private roads, but could at some point, be assumed by South Orange as public roads. It happens elsewhere.
Runner_Guy said:I'm not sure of your point here. Do you believe that there could be any development anywhere in SO (or MW) that would add an inch to the street grid?
Street paving is the best example of how accepting density improves SO's budget situation.
When SO allows a new apartment building, even with hundreds of people living there, it doesn't add an inch to the street grid that SO has to plow, protect, and periodically resurface.
Yes, of course there are scenarios where you have development on open space that would expand the street grid, like with Tillou Road West, but I thought it would be assumed that when I talked about an apartment building I imagined it being on an existing road, like South Orange Avenue.
Let's consider the currently vacant Church Street+South Orange Avenue, the "Gateway II" site.
According to the NJ Property Tax Records site, the "Gateway II Project Entity" owns six parcels there which pay a combined total of $49,883 in property taxes for the land itself.
That's not a lot (no pun intended).
A new apartment building there wouldn't expand the street grid, and yet add hundreds of thousands of dollars to the tax rolls.
We now have websites from ALL of the groups running for BOT:
https://www.southorangeforward.com/ (Davis Ford, Wonski, Borden, Grossi)
https://www.browndavismooreforbot.com/ (Brown, Davis, Moore)
https://sheenacollum.com/ (Collum)
http://www.yourvoiceourvillage.com/ (Zuckerman, Coallier, Jones) - newly added
Re: Baird. Why not allow people to rent out space, thereby generating some revenue? Maplewood does this. I know it's not much $ but it's better than $0.
One of the best things the Baird had was Dreamcatcher Repertory Theater, which had to move to Summit to get more space. We go to Summit, but much preferred the Baird.
PurpleMonkeyDshwashr said:
Re: Baird. Why not allow people to rent out space, thereby generating some revenue? Maplewood does this. I know it's not much $ but it's better than $0.
Do you know if they do or are you guessing?
I thought the plans were to connect the Library to the Connett Building, expanding the library and also using the Connett for Village offices. I'm all for expanding the library - it's painfully small. Look at Maplewood's. Our children's library is terribly cramped and when I'm there on weekends I see a lot of parents with their children. I would happily pay for any bonding needed for the expansion.
I think you are correct. The two buildings become the library and village offices, and the lot gets a parking deck. I don't know how far along the project is as far as planning and funding.
FilmCarp said:
I think you are correct. The two buildings become the library and village offices, and the lot gets a parking deck. I don't know how far along the project is as far as planning and funding.
Pretty sure this plan is no longer being considered, at least not in the format that was being talked about last year. The costs would be too high.
mikescott said:
PurpleMonkeyDshwashr said:Do you know if they do or are you guessing?
Re: Baird. Why not allow people to rent out space, thereby generating some revenue? Maplewood does this. I know it's not much $ but it's better than $0.
I know. I'm currently looking for a space to rent for a birthday party. Contacted the Baird, they don't do that. Am in touch with DeHart in Maplewood, which does.
Rob_Sandow said:
FilmCarp said:
Unfortunately I feel like I'm talking to my drinking buddies on this thread. We pretty much all agree.
cramer said:
No we don't.
We may not always agree but we are a group of dedicated people who care enough to get involved. That's good.
Very nice sentiment, Rob (although my "no we don't" was said in jest.) But still, very nice.
PurpleMonkeyDshwashr said:
mikescott said:I know. I'm currently looking for a space to rent for a birthday party. Contacted the Baird, they don't do that. Am in touch with DeHart in Maplewood, which does.
PurpleMonkeyDshwashr said:Do you know if they do or are you guessing?
Re: Baird. Why not allow people to rent out space, thereby generating some revenue? Maplewood does this. I know it's not much $ but it's better than $0.
I know the Woodland in Maplewood rents out space. A group of us are considering an event there.
marylago said:
Rob_Sandow said:I’m fairly certain they cannot sell it. What have you found that would allow it? The property has a deed, AFAIK, that requires it to be used perpetually for public use.
First, I would divest real estate. The Baird, IMHO, is a luxury we can't afford. We can either renovate it and use it as Village Hall, or we can sell it, but we can't afford $10M to renovate it and just continue to use it as a rec center. It's under utilized as it is. Walk through it at 2:00 on any weekday afternoon if you want to see what I mean. The Connett Building is an albatross as well. It is deeded to the Village with a covenant that it has to be used for a "Library purpose". Since it's not really suitable for a modern library, it sits, underutilized, but costs a fortune in upkeep. I say call the bluff of the covenant and threaten to give it back. See how that turns out.
Next, put the streets on a realistic pavement schedule that would allow them to be milled and topped on a regular basis, maybe every 15 to 20 years. As it is, we pay so much for paving because the streets are allowed to get so bad that they need to be completely rebuilt from gravel on up by the time we get around to fixing them. Some of this has to do with installation of Belgian Block curbs and storm sewers, but that work is mostly complete now, so the cost could/should be lower.
How about leaning on PSE&G a little to make sufficient repairs after they dig up street after street? The patches they put in place are dreadful.
Look, I'm not saying it will be easy or painless, and anyone who knows me knows that I believe raising taxes should be a last resort, but property values really do suffer when prospective buyers have to drive through what looks like a battlefield in order to go look at a house in a residential neighborhood. Paving just needs to be prioritized higher than it currently is.
Is there no way around that? I agree, $10,000,000 is crazy. And I want to add, I do participate in the SOMA Artist's Studio Tour and go there for meetings and gallery openings but I'd gladly wave good-bye to it. And I always like to add with a hint of sarcasm, let's sell TAO.
Our Town Hall sale hurt, I loved that building but its gone. I went to the meeting the night that the Historical Society did their plea and I was on their side. But we lost.
These other structures should be reconsidered.
I believe there was a presentation from a family member who had donated the Baird. Wish we could get that changed. Its a very expensive gift.
Morganna said:
Is there no way around that? I agree, $10,000,000 is crazy. And I want to add, I do participate in the SOMA Artist's Studio Tour and go there for meetings and gallery openings but I'd gladly wave good-bye to it. And I always like to add with a hint of sarcasm, let's sell TAO.
Our Town Hall sale hurt, I loved that building but its gone. I went to the meeting the night that the Historical Society did their plea and I was on their side. But we lost.
These other structures should be reconsidered.
I believe there was a presentation from a family member who had donated the Baird. Wish we could get that changed. Its a very expensive gift.
WRT The Baird and Connett Buildings: They have deeds that say certain things in covenants from the families that donated them. Those can be changed. All you have to do is offer to give the building back to them if they won't agree to allow the language to be changed so that the buildings can be repurposed according to the needs of the Village or disposed of if the Village doesn't want them any longer. I would presume that the donor families have moved on from this decades or more ago and have no interest in owning poorly maintained properties that would suddenly cause them to have huge tax and repair bills. Am I missing anything here?
The family could convert that building to condos and make a fortune.
Where are the groups that currently use the Baird going to go if the Village gets rid of the Baird? For instance, the summer camp uses the Baird.
https://southorange.org/DocumentCenter/View/1684/Summer-Playground-Packet-2019
There are other groups that use the Baird.
http://www.somatwotownsforallages.org/fitness-at-the-baird
http://www.somatwotownsforallages.org/classes-for-adults-and-seniors
https://www.hopeandwondertheater.org/news/2018/9/14/improv-class-at-the-baird-in-south-orange-nj
https://villagegreennj.com/calendar-events/sign-now-winter-cultural-arts-classes-baird/
Someone mentioned earlier that the Baird is underutilized during the day. This is absolutely not true. In fact the various activities often have to be reassigned rooms because there are so many things going on at once. Senior fitness classes, children’s programs, art classes, etc.
cramer said:
Where are the groups that currently use the Baird going to go if the Village gets rid of the Baird? For instance, the summer camp uses the Baird.
https://southorange.org/DocumentCenter/View/1684/Summer-Playground-Packet-2019
There are other groups that use the Baird.
I'm not actually suggesting that we divest The Baird, but it is without a doubt underutilized. It could take in all of the required Village office space without losing its ability to function as a rec center. The Connett Building, on the other hand, is a dinosaur and a money pit.
FilmCarp said:
The family could convert that building to condos and make a fortune.
If South Orange is losing a white elephant, getting new taxable property, and seeing a historic building preserved, wouldn't this be a good thing?
Runner_Guy said:
If South Orange is losing a white elephant, getting new taxable property, and seeing a historic building preserved, wouldn't this be a good thing?
If we are talking about the Connett building, I was just fooling around. In theory you may be right. I'm practice, no. We just used a big grant for a new roof as step one of rehabbing the place towards town use. All of that money, I'm sure, would have to be returned to the state. Also, I don't think that it is a white elephant. I think that area is going to be key for municipal use in the next few years. Rob thinks the plans are dead for it, but I'm not so sure. I think we can save money on the long run by having our offices and the library combined in those two buildings.
FilmCarp said:
Runner_Guy said:If we are talking about the Connett building, I was just fooling around. In theory you may be right. I'm practice, no. We just used a big grant for a new roof as step one of rehabbing the place towards town use. All of that money, I'm sure, would have to be returned to the state. Also, I don't think that it is a white elephant. I think that area is going to be key for municipal use in the next few years. Rob thinks the plans are dead for it, but I'm not so sure. I think we can save money on the long run by having our offices and the library combined in those two buildings.
If South Orange is losing a white elephant, getting new taxable property, and seeing a historic building preserved, wouldn't this be a good thing?
Considering that a contract was awarded in September 2018 to an architectural firm for the library and Connett Building, I think the plans are very much alive.
Rob_Sandow - Have you attended any of the public meetings about the Baird? This is the latest:
https://www.southorange.org/DocumentCenter/View/1703/Baird-Presentation-032519?bidId=
cramer said:
FilmCarp said:Considering that a contract was awarded in September 2018 to an architectural firm for the library and Connett Building, I think the plans are very much alive.
Runner_Guy said:If we are talking about the Connett building, I was just fooling around. In theory you may be right. I'm practice, no. We just used a big grant for a new roof as step one of rehabbing the place towards town use. All of that money, I'm sure, would have to be returned to the state. Also, I don't think that it is a white elephant. I think that area is going to be key for municipal use in the next few years. Rob thinks the plans are dead for it, but I'm not so sure. I think we can save money on the long run by having our offices and the library combined in those two buildings.
If South Orange is losing a white elephant, getting new taxable property, and seeing a historic building preserved, wouldn't this be a good thing?
https://villagegreennj.com/towns/south-orange/south-orange-selects-hardy-h3-architecture-for-library-renovation/
I wonder if SO is jumping the gun on renovating+expanding the existing library instead of waiting for a better, larger, more attractive building to come onto the market.
What I'm thinking of is the gradual secularization of American society and the possibility that a religious congregation in South Orange might decide to downsize or merge with another congregation and then sell its building.
It saddens me to think of that possibility, but I don't think that the above scenario is impossible or unlikely.
At that point, a large, beautiful, historic building will have an uncertain fate. If there is no possible for-profit use for the existing structure, the building would deteriorate, perhaps to the point where demolition looks like the most sensible option (like it is for the Old Stone House). A sanctuary is a large voluminous room that is difficult to reuse, and yet would make an ideal library reading room.
Of course we do not know when this scenario would occur or under what conditions, but I wonder if there will be a future historical preservation opportunity that South Orange is missing the chance to have the Library be a part of by committing to the current Scotland Road location.
Received the first mailer from Deborah’s campaign today. They must have a lot of money to be sending color mailers so early.
annielou said:
Someone mentioned earlier that the Baird is underutilized during the day. This is absolutely not true. In fact the various activities often have to be reassigned rooms because there are so many things going on at once. Senior fitness classes, children’s programs, art classes, etc.
Yes, going into the Baird at 2 PM during the school year and judging it should be closed based on usage at that time (as Rob Sandow suggested) is like going into the train station at 2 PM on a weekday and judging it should be closed due to underutilization. It is misuse of partial data.
susan1014 said:
Yes, going into the Baird at 2 PM during the school year and judging it should be closed based on usage at that time (as Rob Sandow suggested) is like going into the train station at 2 PM on a weekday and judging it should be closed due to underutilization. It is misuse of partial data.
No one is suggesting The Baird should be closed. My suggestion is that it is underutilized and could accommodate the addition of Village Hall office and conference space as well as its role as a rec center. I do hope that we can reduce taxes and maintenance costs through the divestiture of some properties and consolidation of functions into fewer properties.
Rob_Sandow said:
We all heard the "I'm going to call Sheena" part of her rant. But your allegation that Sheena may dole out political favors to people who commit infractions is wrong and you should apologize and delete that comment. Sheena went very public on every forum to state that she did not and will not fix a traffic violation for anyone regardless of who they are. Sheena was at my house for a barbecue not long after she was elected to the BOT, and was issued a parking ticket for parking in a no parking zone in front of my house. Yes she paid it. I even took a picture of her with the ticket and put it on Facebook.
I didn't hear it or see it, but ya know, anyone can say anything. Sure, as intelligent human beings we can add up evidence, and then we can infer, and then we can conjecture about what anyone says about anything. The games of politics rely on these things. "I'm going to call Sheena". When I was a teenager, I got myself into a social situation that turned bad. It was in Florida, I was from NJ. When push came to shove, literally, I said, "I'm going to call Vito". He believed me, and took me home. There was no Vito. Sometimes you just grab the last straw and hope for the best. I'm just saying, political truth is an untrustworthy bedfellow at every level, and all a citizen has is wits to keep up with all the available information and the ability to add up the evidence to support comfortable, personal decisions. I just found this post by accident that responding to ... Thinking about this local, political climate... Of course we use our best judgement. But we as human beings have a tendency to take sides. I'm just not sure that's the best way to go. Only the speaking part separates us from the apes. The rest is our individual responsibility.
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I'm not sure of your point here. Do you believe that there could be any development anywhere in SO (or MW) that would add an inch to the street grid?