Since when is it okay to have a creche on public property?

drummerboy said:

Why do local governments feel the need to spend their energy on Christmas anyway? Can't that be left to the local churches?

 The display in Maplewood is not sanctioned by the government. It's sponsored by the Maplewood Village Alliance, whose purpose is to promote commerce in the village. 

ml1 said:
 The display in Maplewood is not sanctioned by the government. It's sponsored by the Maplewood Village Alliance, whose purpose is to promote commerce in the village. 

 Ah yes... taking Christ out of Christmas and replacing him with $ signs.

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

Why do local governments feel the need to spend their energy on Christmas anyway? Can't that be left to the local churches?

 The display in Maplewood is not sanctioned by the government. It's sponsored by the Maplewood Village Alliance, whose purpose is to promote commerce in the village. 

 thanks for the info - but I'm even going as far as street decorations, etc. But to the extent the town is not directly involved - kudos to them.

tjohn said:

ml1 said:
 The display in Maplewood is not sanctioned by the government. It's sponsored by the Maplewood Village Alliance, whose purpose is to promote commerce in the village. 

 Ah yes... taking Christ out of Christmas and replacing him with $ signs.

 that's why we need a Festivus Pole. No gifts 

drummerboy said:

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

Why do local governments feel the need to spend their energy on Christmas anyway? Can't that be left to the local churches?

 The display in Maplewood is not sanctioned by the government. It's sponsored by the Maplewood Village Alliance, whose purpose is to promote commerce in the village. 

 thanks for the info - but I'm even going as far as street decorations, etc. But to the extent the town is not directly involved - kudos to them.

given the importance of holiday shopping to the viability of local businesses, I'm more than OK with secular decorations that promote the shopping district 

jmitw said:
I don't think its fair that people are whining about things like a creche but don't give a d about people who are suffering and dying..sure many people talk the talk, but when it comes time for actual action, they can't be bothered...unless its a fake GFM about a fake do gooder giving his last 20 to a woman in distress.  I am not Christian, but I don't have a problem with christian, jewish, muslim, hindu, etc symbols.


as long as the government gives equal opportunity to all, it should be encouraged to share our cultures and beliefs with others, rather than oppress them.
too bad people insist on being stupid and try claim spaghetti strainer worship and ruin celebrating diversity.

 what's a GFM?

It's not possible or practical for a government to give "equal opportunity to all" as regards to religious observances. It will always fall short. It should rather just get out of that business.

if the concern is too much attention given to Christian and not enough to other religions, why not advocate for equal time rather than oppression of one?  My experience with Christians is that they give 1% in following Christ's example, and 99% to being an A$$ to others...and think that makes them great Christians...apparently there aren't enough reminders of what it means to be Christian.  I don't support the religions at all, but I also don't support blocking sharing of cultures.

I was raised "Christian" but after experiences a lifetime of allegedly religious people (not just Christian, but also Muslim, Jewish, etc.) not practicing what they preached, religion has become meaningless to me.

I believe kitchen utensils are suggested as religious symbols when mockery is all folks have going for them. 

Respect and respecting differences — race, gender, religious conviction, nationality, etc — I had believed were mutual goals of civility.

Peace on earth? If MOLand is an example of it, forgetaboutit.

Merry Christmas!

To celebrate Lincoln's Birthday it's appropriate to display the Gettysburg Address.

Why not celebrate Jesus's birthday, or what has been adopted as Jesus's birthday by a display of the words of Jesus rather than a display of his place of birth?

mtierney said:
I believe kitchen utensils are suggested as religious symbols when mockery is all folks have going for them.

How much of a Grinch do you have to be to be anti Festivus?

Robert_Casotto said:
Merry Christmas!

 Happy Holidays!

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "Lets put the X back in X-Mas".  There's a sentiment we all should be able to get behind.

mtierney said:
Respect and respecting differences — race, gender, religious conviction, nationality, etc — I had believed were mutual goals of civility.

I am sorry, you cannot support a man who's motto is "Grab Em in the Pussy" and claim to be an advocate of civility.  The two are mutually exclusive.

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,     for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn,     for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek,     for they will inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,     for they will be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful,     for they will be shown mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart,     for they will see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers,     for they will be called children of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,     for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

.

20 Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor,     for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed are you who hunger now,     for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now,     for you will laugh. 22 Blessed are you when people hate you,     when they exclude you and insult you     and reject your name as evil,     because of the Son of Man.

24 "But woe to you who are rich,     for you have already received your comfort. 25 Woe to you who are well fed now,     for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now,     for you will mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,     for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

Mazel Tov!!

Comparing Christ to Lincoln and their celebratory holyday or holiday doesn’t really hold up. 

On 12/25, the celebration is for the Infant Jesus’s actual birth — His first birthday. Mr Lincoln was an adult when he gave that memorable Address.

Today, the honoring of both Jesus and Abe are done as commercialized sale days at the Malls across America.  

jmitw said:
if the concern is too much attention given to Christian and not enough to other religions, why not advocate for equal time rather than oppression of one?  My experience with Christians is that they give 1% in following Christ's example, and 99% to being an A$$ to others...and think that makes them great Christians...apparently there aren't enough reminders of what it means to be Christian.  I don't support the religions at all, but I also don't support blocking sharing of cultures.


I was raised "Christian" but after experiences a lifetime of allegedly religious people (not just Christian, but also Muslim, Jewish, etc.) not practicing what they preached, religion has become meaningless to me.

That was my point, which you apparently missed. It's not practical for a local government to try and cover all religions. Where would one stop? Which religions do you choose to include?

And why should they bother anyway? There job is to keep the streets clean, not to celebrate religious holidays.

and, btw, a town not celebrating a religious holiday hardly amounts to "oppression".

mtierney said:
Comparing Christ to Lincoln and their celebratory holyday or holiday doesn’t really hold up. 

you're right.  We know for certain that Lincoln was president.  Jesus of Nazareth as messiah and son of God?  Not so much.

ml1 said:

mtierney said:
Comparing Christ to Lincoln and their celebratory holyday or holiday doesn’t really hold up. 

you're right.  We know for certain that Lincoln was president.  Jesus of Nazareth as messiah and son of God?  Not so much.
 

 This story has legs — 2000 years of proclamations  that Jesus is the Son of God. 

mtierney said:
Comparing Christ to Lincoln and their celebratory holyday or holiday doesn’t really hold up. 
On 12/25, the celebration is for the Infant Jesus’s actual birth — His first birthday. Mr Lincoln was an adult when he gave that memorable Address.
Today, the honoring of both Jesus and Abe are done as commercialized sale days at the Malls across America.  

 Again..... Christ was not born in December.  There is literally pages and pages of evidence of this both in the Scriptures and historical records.  What part of this don't you understand????

mtierney said:


 This story has legs — 2000 years of proclamations  that Jesus is the Son of God. 

 Mtireney does love the proclamations. I think that is why she joined the Pussy Grabber movement. Probably doesn't make her the best source for matters spiritual though. Moral bankruptcy comes with a price.  

ml1 said:

mtierney said:
Comparing Christ to Lincoln and their celebratory holyday or holiday doesn’t really hold up. 

you're right.  We know for certain that Lincoln was president.  Jesus of Nazareth as messiah and son of God?  Not so much.
 

 According to historians Lincoln was born on February 12th. That was the day that we used to celebrate it rather than the modern "President's' Day".

I have never understood why Christianity seems to be obsessed with the birth and death of Jesus, crèches and crucifixes, rather than celebrating his words.

OTOH maybe the reason is obvious:

I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:23-26

Parallel versions appear in Mark 10:24-27, and Luke 18:24-27.

The saying was a response to a young rich man who had asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus replied that he should keep the commandments, to which the man stated he had done. Jesus responded, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." The young man became sad and was unwilling to do this. Jesus then spoke this response, leaving his disciples astonished.

mtierney said:

ml1 said:

mtierney said:
Comparing Christ to Lincoln and their celebratory holyday or holiday doesn’t really hold up. 

you're right.  We know for certain that Lincoln was president.  Jesus of Nazareth as messiah and son of God?  Not so much.
 

 This story has legs — 2000 years of proclamations  that Jesus is the Son of God. 

we don't even know for certain that God exists, much less that Jesus was literally his son.

Klinker said:
Jesus Wasn't Born in December

 Actually, you got a 1 in 12 chance of being right on that.

mtierney said:

ml1 said:

mtierney said:
Comparing Christ to Lincoln and their celebratory holyday or holiday doesn’t really hold up. 

you're right.  We know for certain that Lincoln was president.  Jesus of Nazareth as messiah and son of God?  Not so much.
 

 This story has legs — 2000 years of proclamations  that Jesus is the Son of God. 

 Same news outlet, for 1,500 years, said Earth was the center of the universe. Your *** could be fried for saying different.

ml1 said:

mtierney said:

Much needed even in Maplewood it appears—  Scrooge is still as mean-spirited as ever as he walks about Dickens Village — 

really?  

 Really! Long about 15 years ago, we had First Night. One performer had sung a song written around 1985. The performer said, of his opinion, it was the most beautiful Christmas song written in the last 50 years. I heard him sing it a couple of times at other venues. The words evoked imagery that gave me pause. (I'm atheist).

Anyway, First Night, Maplewood, he sang it. After his 1/2 hour performance, a guy went up to him and criticized him for singing a religious song at an event that was sponsored by the public. He never sang that song again.

Again, I don't believe in a transcendent God. But I don't believe in trying to restrict someone else's joy and comfort.

I do, however, get my dander up when people use the basis of their superstition to try to run my life. That pisses me off.

ml1 said:

The display in Maplewood is not sanctioned by the government. It's sponsored by the Maplewood Village Alliance, whose purpose is to promote commerce in the village. 

A few problems with this statement:  The nativity scene is not placed on a commercial property but on public parkland.  The Maplewood Village Alliance is supported by the government of Maplewood which (1) includes  a contribution to the MVA budget in the town's budget each year; (2) has approval power over the MVA's proposed budget which is approved by the TC each year after a public hearing is held on the subject; and (3) recently voted to make a significant contribution to the purchase and installation of pavers and other capital improvements that would otherwise have been the responsibility of the MVA.  

joan_crystal said:

ml1 said:

The display in Maplewood is not sanctioned by the government. It's sponsored by the Maplewood Village Alliance, whose purpose is to promote commerce in the village. 

A few problems with this statement:  The nativity scene is not placed on a commercial property but on public parkland.  The Maplewood Village Alliance is supported by the government of Maplewood which (1) includes  a contribution to the MVA budget in the town's budget each year; (2) has approval power over the MVA's proposed budget which is approved by the TC each year after a public hearing is held on the subject; and (3) recently voted to make a significant contribution to the purchase and installation of pavers and other capital improvements that would otherwise have been the responsibility of the MVA.  

I stand by my assertion that the holiday display is not the work of the township government.

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

ml1 said:

mtierney said:

Much needed even in Maplewood it appears—  Scrooge is still as mean-spirited as ever as he walks about Dickens Village — 

really?  

 Really! 

so even though the residents of Maplewood overwhelmingly support and take part in a holiday celebration that lasts weeks, and has been held for as long as anyone alive can remember, you and mtierney choose to focus on the one or two people each year who are "mean-spirited"?

Klinker said:
I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "Lets put the X back in X-Mas".  There's a sentiment we all should be able to get behind.

 And the Chi back in X.