Renaming Jefferson school.
Drummer, you are missing the point of this discussion. Do we rename everything ever named after a slaveholder? Or is the problem with Jefferson his hypocrisy about the issue? People defending him keep bringing up his writings as proof of his altruism. Washington owned slaves through his wife, and never talked of freeing them. In my mind he was at least a product of his immoral times, whereas Jefferson did not walk his talk
DanDietrich said:
Washington owned slaves through his wife, and never talked of freeing them.
He freed them via his will.
DanDietrich said:
Drummer, you are missing the point of this discussion. Do we rename everything ever named after a slaveholder? Or is the problem with Jefferson his hypocrisy about the issue? People defending him keep bringing up his writings as proof of his altruism. Washington owned slaves through his wife, and never talked of freeing them. In my mind he was at least a product of his immoral times, whereas Jefferson did not walk his talk
I'm not missing the point, and yeah, maybe renaming the name of at least every school named after a slaveholder is a worthy effort.
And I don't buy the excuse of being the product of their time either, not for slave owning.
America still has a helluva long way to account for it's racist/slaveholding past.
Just this week, some school board in Texas wanted to rename slavery as "involuntary relocation".
Huge parts of the country are pushing one way to deal with slavery by hiding it - maybe people of goodwill need to push just as hard in the other direction.
Having said all that, I think renaming streets is problematic just as a practical matter. I'd put them at the bottom of any priority list.
drummerboy said:
Just this week, some school board in Texas wanted to rename slavery as "involuntary relocation".
That’s not what happened.
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/30/texas-slavery-involuntary-relocation/
DaveSchmidt said:
drummerboy said:
Just this week, some school board in Texas wanted to rename slavery as "involuntary relocation".
That’s not what happened.
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/30/texas-slavery-involuntary-relocation/
close enough for jazz. you're going to quibble about school board vs educators advising a school board?
forest meet trees
Griswold is safe too, right?
ETA: from your link
In this case, the group proposing these second grade curriculum revisions was given a copy of Senate Bill 3,
Texas’ law that dictates how slavery and issues of race are taught in
Texas. The law states that slavery can’t be taught as part of the true
founding of the United States and that slavery was nothing more than a
deviation from American values.
Pretty much makes my main point, doesn't it?
Sometimes you're tiresome.
drummerboy said:
close enough for jazz. you're going to quibble about school board vs educators advising a school board?
If someone says a school board wanted to do something, when in fact the school board unanimously rejected that something, I’m going to quibble. Tough luck on the tiresomeness.
They might use the term “illegal immigrants” instead of “involuntary relocation”…
No matter how hard they try to erase the history of this country, they can’t erase the African American people.
As to people ‘owning’ enslaved people being the product of their times…
…so were abolitionists
DaveSchmidt said:
If someone says a school board wanted to do something, when in fact the school board unanimously rejected that something, I’m going to quibble. Tough luck on the tiresomeness.
I don't mind what you did; I mind how you did it.
Scully said:
As to people ‘owning’ enslaved people being the product of their times…
…so were abolitionists
yeah, it wasn't like the idea that not owning people didn't have a long long history as the moral way of being.
it wasn't some sort of revolutionary idea that just arose in colonial America.
For a slight sidetrack:
"All men are created equal...." There was a very thoughtful discussion of the accomplishments, ideals, and shortcomings of the US "founding fathers" on NPR Morning Edition this morning. https://www.npr.org/2022/07/04/1109667557/on-this-july-4th-what-does-equality-mean
Cross-posting to Politics.
Happy, safe 4th, everyone!
Meanwhile, the Supreme Court is dominated by Christianist nationalists. But, hey, we renamed a school in Maplewood.
(continuing sidetrack)
tjohn, i'm in total agreement with you on this, but just can't "Like." If there was a "Dislike" or maybe "Snarl" button.... Horrible situation with the Court, and could even get worse.
(end sidetrack, i promise)
Do you ever get the feeling that Jefferson didn't mean a single word of that? The importation of slaves ended during his administration, but slavery did not. Buchanan takes all the heat, but did anyone have a better opportunity to end slavery than Jefferson himself? That part of the Declaration that was cut out, in which he castigated George for his role in the practice….is there a greater hypocrisy in American history?
Jaytee said:
Do you ever get the feeling that Jefferson didn't mean a single word of that? The importation of slaves ended during his administration, but slavery did not. Buchanan takes all the heat, but did anyone have a better opportunity to end slavery than Jefferson himself? That part of the Declaration that was cut out, in which he castigated George for his role in the practice….is there a greater hypocrisy in American history?
There is actual, reported history about the writing and editing of the Declaration after Jefferson submitted his draft, you know.
Everything Jefferson wrote was subject to committee review. It wasn't the Constitution, only the Declaration, so actual rights and responsibilities were not included at all in the document, which was basically a fiery proclamation of Independence rather than the creation of the federal system.
Jefferson, as many men in his time (and today) most likely operated with strong compartmentalized and quasi-dissociated areas of thinking and behavior, such that the left hand didn't always know or bother to be consistent with what the right hand was doing. If he attempted to rationalize the Declaration with his slave-holdings, mistress and love-child, it would likely be along the lines of slaves not being full human beings ready for equality, even less so than women. Except for relatively small minority of abolitionists, especially those in the North who had no economic stake in the matter, it was a widely held rationalization, or "big lie" that was glossed over in the desire to oppose the British in whatever united way they could.
At this point in our town's and country's history, it has become finally impossible to be unaware of or dismiss the contradictions in Jefferson's life and to hold himself up as a hero that our schoolchildren and parents could look up to; while continuing to compartmentalize the horrific aspects of his slaveholding side, which is why a more admirable role model as a new name for the school makes sense to me.
Jefferson was an intelligent and extremely flawed individual. He was self serving ,as are most of us, though he may have been a visionary In some aspects he was also a vile hypocrite , rapist and judging from his finances at the time of his death a poor business manager. I would urge all to read his treatment of Haiti post revolution and then judge his commitment to the freedom for enslaved Africans. I do not discount his contribution to the founding of America however I see his glaring faults and will not gloss over them As for changing the name of the school I have no strong opinion one way or the other, rather I would like for us to use this moment to develop a deeper understanding of our history and use that knowledge to move forward in our political discourse.
Mattie5 said:
Jefferson was an intelligent and extremely flawed individual. He was self serving ,as are most of us, though he may have been a visionary In some aspects he was also a vile hypocrite , rapist and judging from his finances at the time of his death a poor business manager. I would urge all to read his treatment of Haiti post revolution and then judge his commitment to the freedom for enslaved Africans. I do not discount his contribution to the founding of America however I see his glaring faults and will not gloss over them As for changing the name of the school I have no strong opinion one way or the other, rather I would like for us to use this moment to develop a deeper understanding of our history and use that knowledge to move forward in our political discourse.
That's very old school. Nowadays, we simply pick a single aspect of a person's life and cancel them on that basis. Maybe the school should be renamed. Maybe it shouldn't. But you are right There should be a full discussion of the person's life and a discussion about how it is that so many human beings can do a combination of good and bad things in their lives.
Even after discounting for the typical neo-fascist "journalism" of Rupert Murdoch's New York Post, it appears that things have changed a lot at Monticello over the last few years (link below). I remember as a child being highly impressed by Jefferson's creativity in the design of his home estate, and its beauty. Now, there has been a strong effort to balance that perspective with the other side of Jefferson's personality, emphasizing his views on slavery, slave holdings, secret affair with his slave mistress Sally Hemmings, etc.
Very distressing!! Loved visiting Monticello many years ago and was in awe of Jefferson's creation. This was 250 years ago. This is history.
galileo said:
Very distressing!! Loved visiting Monticello many years ago and was in awe of Jefferson's creation. This was 250 years ago. This is history.
Agree that this is quite disconcerting. But the changing information and perspective on Jefferson's involvement with slavery, on a political as well as personal level, is regrettably part of history, too, though previously whitewashed. It would be interesting to return to Monticello and personally experience how history has been retold.
galileo said:
Very distressing!! Loved visiting Monticello many years ago and was in awe of Jefferson's creation. This was 250 years ago. This is history.
why is it distressing to get the whole story? Do you really want your history prefiltered for you? Look at all of it. A person or event in history has many facets.
tjohn said:
That's very old school. Nowadays, we simply pick a single aspect of a person's life and cancel them on that basis. Maybe the school should be renamed. Maybe it shouldn't. But you are right There should be a full discussion of the person's life and a discussion about how it is that so many human beings can do a combination of good and bad things in their lives.
in this case the "single thing" was owning human beings and taking one of them as what was essentially a sex slave.
DanDietrich said:
galileo said:
Very distressing!! Loved visiting Monticello many years ago and was in awe of Jefferson's creation. This was 250 years ago. This is history.
why is it distressing to get the whole story? Do you really want your history prefiltered for you? Look at all of it. A person or event in history has many facets.
When I was there with family a few years ago, the main tour was still focused on the house and on Jefferson's creations. Can't remember exactly how the main tour addressed slavery, and sadly. my kids were burnt out and we didn't get to stay and take the secondary tour that focused on slavery.
tjohn said:
Mattie5 said:
Jefferson was an intelligent and extremely flawed individual. He was self serving ,as are most of us, though he may have been a visionary In some aspects he was also a vile hypocrite , rapist and judging from his finances at the time of his death a poor business manager. I would urge all to read his treatment of Haiti post revolution and then judge his commitment to the freedom for enslaved Africans. I do not discount his contribution to the founding of America however I see his glaring faults and will not gloss over them As for changing the name of the school I have no strong opinion one way or the other, rather I would like for us to use this moment to develop a deeper understanding of our history and use that knowledge to move forward in our political discourse.
That's very old school. Nowadays, we simply pick a single aspect of a person's life and cancel them on that basis. Maybe the school should be renamed. Maybe it shouldn't. But you are right There should be a full discussion of the person's life and a discussion about how it is that so many human beings can do a combination of good and bad things in their lives.
No one is canceling Jefferson. He is still in all the history books and quoted ad infinitum around the 4th of July. Characterizing Jefferson's ownership of slaves as a "single aspect of a person's life" is a massive understatement.
We are renaming a school and as minor as that may seem, it sends a clear message locally that Jefferson will be remembered for more than his contributions to the founding of our country.
For what it's worth, part of the design of Monticello involves a deliberate effort to conceal the slaves from the view of visitors.
The "classic" image of the house, approaching from the front, shows the main house and the South and North Terraces on either side, leading to pavilions. Behind the house, and behind and under the terraces and pavilions were where the slaves worked to service the house. Even in the dining room, Jefferson's "ingenious" devices such as the dumbwaiter and the rotating panel for conveying food into the dining room, served to keep most of the slaves out of sight.
Jefferson was very conscious of what slavery was, and not very proud of it. It's appropriate to show all of the aspects of the gentleman's character.
For Sale
-
2007 Honda Fit $4,400
More info
Free Items
Sponsored Business
Promote your business here - Businesses get highlighted throughout the site and you can add a deal.
There really is no way to balance the fact that someone owned human beings. It's abominable.