Renaming Jefferson school.

Review of our forefathers…..

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/declaration/bio.htm

Excerpt….

“THE signers possessed many basic similarities. Most were American born and of Anglo-Saxon origin. The eight foreign-born—Button Gwinnett, Francis Lewis, Robert Morris, James Smith, George Taylor, Matthew Thornton, James Wilson, and John Witherspoon—were all natives of the British Isles. Except for Charles Carroll, a Roman Catholic, and a few Deists, every one subscribed to Protestantism. For the most part basically political nonextremists, many at first had hesitated at separation let alone rebellion. A few signed only reluctantly.

“The majority were well educated and prosperous. More than half the southerners belonged to the planter class and owned slaves, though Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, and others heartily opposed the institution of slavery, as did also several of the signers from the North. On the other hand, William Whipple, as a sea captain early in his career, had likely sometimes carried slaves on his ship.”

mtierney said:

Review of our forefathers…..

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/declaration/bio.htm

Excerpt….

“THE signers possessed many basic similarities. Most were American born and of Anglo-Saxon origin. The eight foreign-born—Button Gwinnett, Francis Lewis, Robert Morris, James Smith, George Taylor, Matthew Thornton, James Wilson, and John Witherspoon—were all natives of the British Isles. Except for Charles Carroll, a Roman Catholic, and a few Deists, every one subscribed to Protestantism. For the most part basically political nonextremists, many at first had hesitated at separation let alone rebellion. A few signed only reluctantly.

“The majority were well educated and prosperous. More than half the southerners belonged to the planter class and owned slaves, though Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, and others heartily opposed the institution of slavery, as did also several of the signers from the North. On the other hand, William Whipple, as a sea captain early in his career, had likely sometimes carried slaves on his ship.”

 it's like a self-parody

mtierney said:

Review of our forefathers…..

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/declaration/bio.htm

Excerpt….

“THE signers possessed many basic similarities. Most were American born and of Anglo-Saxon origin. The eight foreign-born—Button Gwinnett, Francis Lewis, Robert Morris, James Smith, George Taylor, Matthew Thornton, James Wilson, and John Witherspoon—were all natives of the British Isles. Except for Charles Carroll, a Roman Catholic, and a few Deists, every one subscribed to Protestantism. For the most part basically political nonextremists, many at first had hesitated at separation let alone rebellion. A few signed only reluctantly.

“The majority were well educated and prosperous. More than half the southerners belonged to the planter class and owned slaves, though Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, and others heartily opposed the institution of slavery, as did also several of the signers from the North. On the other hand, William Whipple, as a sea captain early in his career, had likely sometimes carried slaves on his ship.”

 And never once do you acknowledge that you were talking about the wrong school entirely.  But thanks for pointing out how hypocritical Jefferson was.  He did claim to despise slavery, while keeping and raping slaves.  

dave said:

And George Washington is rumored to have slept a night at the Timothy Ball's house  on Ridgewood.

Maybe George Washington Carver School would be a nice compromise name?

And Lincoln stayed at Les Saison, according to AJC's testimony at his B&B hearing about 15 years ago.

It's also a well known fact that Lincoln liked mayonnaise.

Taken from The Patch 

MAPLEWOOD, NJ — The South-Orange Maplewood school board voted to approve a resolution Monday night to seek other names for the district's existing Jefferson Elementary School, saying the school "bears the name of an enslaver committed to upholding the institution of slavery."

Before the Monday night vote, parent Sally Unsworth of South Orange, who said her family are descendants of Jefferson, supported the move at the meeting, according to a story in TAPInto. She called Jefferson a "flawed historical figure" and said, "No part of the entire truth of who he was, how he lived and who he harmed should be ignored," according to the story.

sbenois said:

dave said:

And George Washington is rumored to have slept a night at the Timothy Ball's house on Ridgewood.

Maybe George Washington Carver School would be a nice compromise name?

And Lincoln stayed at Les Saison, according to AJC's testimony at his B&B hearing about 15 years ago.  It's also a well known fact that Lincoln liked mayonnaise.

sbenois said:

And Lincoln stayed at Les Saison, according to AJC's testimony at his B&B hearing about 15 years ago.

It's also a well known fact that Lincoln liked mayonnaise.

 Well, there’s a little yellow house on elmwood avenue closer to Irvington that was a make-shift hospital for the wounded.  Just a couple blocks from les saisons 

A-ha! NOW I remember why I had to step away from MOL for a while after my TBI... Thanks for the trip down memory lane. 

sbenois said:

dave said:

And George Washington is rumored to have slept a night at the Timothy Ball's house  on Ridgewood.

Maybe George Washington Carver School would be a nice compromise name?

And Lincoln stayed at Les Saison, according to AJC's testimony at his B&B hearing about 15 years ago.

It's also a well known fact that Lincoln liked mayonnaise.

 Ridiculous!

FYI a more sympathetic overall view of Jefferson from a progressive's perspective:

https://quillette.com/2018/07/06/a-progressive-defense-of-thomas-jefferson/

bub said:

FYI a more sympathetic overall view of Jefferson from a progressive's perspective:

https://quillette.com/2018/07/06/a-progressive-defense-of-thomas-jefferson/

 But his actions speak louder than his words…even though “Jefferson was a strong defender of environmentalism, religious freedom, secularism, and the separation of church and state”…his behavior towards African Americans is what matters here. Some people can detach themselves from the issue because they are not black. It’s easy ain’t it? You can rationalize a man’s actions towards slaves because it never did affect anyone who shares your DNA. So his writings will heal his soul…

I'm not rationalizing anything, downplaying his actions, minimizing slave ownership (because I'm not black) or saying that the school's name should not be changed.  I am of the view, generally, that more than one thing can be true bout a subject and I'm just passing on the above take about Jefferson as a whole.  

STANV said:

 You are apparently unfamiliar with the party in question

I am, but this is just so over the top absurd (even for her).

Jaytee said:

 Steve doesn’t visit the politics section.

I do and am familiar with MTierney's (to put it kindly) distorted view of the world around her and know of her desire to return to the "good old days" where everyone "knew their place," but even this seemed to be a bit much for her.

Steve said:

I do and am familiar with MTierney's (to put it kindly) distorted view of the world around her and know of her desire to return to the "good old days" where everyone "knew their place," but even this seemed to be a bit much for her.

 It is said that people become "more themselves" as they age.  For some, this can be an ugly process.

Klinker said:

 It is said that people become "more themselves" as they age.  For some, this can be an ugly process.

I think that you nailed it here.  I just can't imagine what she'll be like in a year (though, she probably doesn't believe in COVID or the vaccine, so maybe nature will run its course).

mtierney believes in COVID and is fully vaccinated. 

ridski said:

mtierney believes in COVID and is fully vaccinated. 

 which is why her mocking of masks and other CDC guidelines is so strange.

One thing about Mtierney, as a woman well into her 80s.  You might disagree with her politics, which are a fairly predictable mirror of politically Conservative-Catholic and Republican talking points.  But she rarely attacks anyone personally here, and then only mildly, after extensive trolling.

ml1 said:

ridski said:

mtierney believes in COVID and is fully vaccinated. 

 which is why her mocking of masks and other CDC guidelines is so strange.

 Which is why reading comprehension is slower in the age of instant gratification. Zingers outweigh facts, and reflect the paucity of knowledge.

I will get a third booster shot in October, God willing.

mtierney said:

ml1 said:

ridski said:

mtierney believes in COVID and is fully vaccinated. 

 which is why her mocking of masks and other CDC guidelines is so strange.

 Which is why reading comprehension is slower in the age of instant gratification. Zingers outweigh facts, and reflect the paucity of knowledge.

I will get a third booster shot in October, God willing.

 you constantly post cartoons mocking COVID mitigation measures. Maybe it's you who isn't comprehending what you share. Because everyone reading your posts fully understands what they're saying. 

Don't tell nobody but the Library of Congress has a Jefferson Building.

Shouldn't we do something about it?

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

Don't tell nobody but the Library of Congress has a Jefferson Building.

Shouldn't we do something about it?

 knock yourself out.

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

Don't tell nobody but the Library of Congress has a Jefferson Building.

Shouldn't we do something about it?

 In light of what's happening right now outside the Library of Congress...

ridski said:

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

Don't tell nobody but the Library of Congress has a Jefferson Building.

Shouldn't we do something about it?

 In light of what's happening right now outside the Library of Congress...

 Capitol Police Investigate ‘Bomb Threat’ Near Library of Congress

WASHINGTON — The United States Capitol Police were negotiating with a man who claimed to have a bomb in a pickup truck outside the Library of Congress on Thursday, prompting evacuations from government buildings in the area.

The man drove a black pickup onto the sidewalk of the Library of Congress at about 9:15 Thursday morning, and the police responded to a disturbance call, Chief J. Thomas Manger of the Capitol Police said in a news conference.

When the police arrived, the man said he had a bomb and one of the officers observed what appeared to be a detonator in his hand, Chief Manger said.

The police are negotiating with the man, he said. It was unclear whether the man did actually have explosives.

“We don’t know what his motives are at this time,” Chief Manger said. He confirmed that some of those negotiations had been streamed live on social media.

“We’re trying to get as much information as we can to try to find a way to peacefully resolve this,” he said. Chief Manger declined to describe the conversation between the man and the negotiators.

The man, whom officials identified as a resident of Grover, N.C., named Floyd Ray Roseberry, about 50 years old, was making anti-government statements, according to a law enforcement official.

A spokesman for Facebook confirmed that the company had taken down a post with a video broadcast from man in the truck. In the rambling video, he addresses President Biden, demanding to speak with him or a representative, and sometimes shows a metal object in his lap. He describes himself as “a patriot” and expresses grievances with Democrats. He repeatedly says he does not want to die or hurt anyone but warns that the device will explode if the police fire at him, though the man offered no evidence to support that.

Of course a pickup truck.  You'd think one of these guys could show some originality and drive up in a Prius.

It appears Mr Roseberry has surrendered. So you can continue the discussion, whatever it was.

Geez even the name - Floyd Ray Roseberry

bub said:

FYI a more sympathetic overall view of Jefferson from a progressive's perspective:

https://quillette.com/2018/07/06/a-progressive-defense-of-thomas-jefferson/

Borinski's argument, as I read it, is that Jefferson's intellectual contributions are a large part of the foundation of the American left, and that attacks on Jefferson cede Jefferson to the political right, blunting the radical liberalism inherent in much of Jefferson's thought and reducing the left's overall political effectiveness.

My default stance on claims around what is and what is not electorally effective is always one of skepticism -- I feel such claims are on the same general plane as folks bending your ear about the real secret to successfully beating the stock market.  I mean, sure, maybe there's something to it, and it's certainly possible to make all sorts of convincing arguments about why one's own views speak to the true fundamentals of the market or the electorate but... I won't go so far as saying it's a crapshoot, but IME a healthy skepticism is always in order for such claims.

Electoral implications aside, what I mainly take issue with in this argument, and in the pushback against repositioning historical figures in general, is that I'm not a big fan of hagiography. Let's grant all the arguments Borinski makes in favor of Jefferson; how does that lead to the conclusion that criticism of him, even to the point of demoting his place of prominence in our culture, is a mistake? Only if we take Jefferson's achievements a ceiling rather than as a floor, I'd argue.

Borinski really downplays slavery. Phrasing such as "though he never fully absolved himself of his place in that oppressive order" are a decision to glance in the direction of slavery and quickly turn away. He wasn't just incidentally part of the system, he was a prominent beneficiary and practitioner of it, and trying to make him out to be some sort of proto-abolitionist is about as convincing as arguing an executive at Exxon is actually a climate activist because he encourages recycling and does at-home composting. Borinski's arguments on Jefferson's opposition to the slave trade are especially unconvincing -- does a US steel manufacturer's support of protectionist tariffs make them "anti-steel"?

The big change on the American left from previous iterations is a much greater acknowledgment and attention paid to issues of race. Is this progress? I would argue it is. Borinski lauds Jefferson for his audacious claim that "all men are created equal", cites Jefferson's concern with wealth inequality, and positions Jeffersonian principles as a bulwark against the authoritarian American Right. Yet, Borinski admits that "Jefferson’s revolutionary ideas of liberty, equality, and continual renewal may have been inconsistently applied in his own life." Isn't the current focus on race precisely an attempt to more consistently apply Jefferson's most progressive ideals? Doesn't the very term "progressive" imply a movement beyond what was accomplished in the past? And if so, then why set the limit of progressive ambition at the visions of the 18th century?

Borinski calls Jefferson "our greatest founder." In that case, let's make Jeffersonianism a foundation rather than a limit. After all, it was Jefferson who said "the earth belongs in usufruct to the living...the dead have neither powers nor rights over it." Arguably, the greatest acknowledgement of Jefferson would be to move beyond him.

bub said:

Of course a pickup truck.  You'd think one of these guys could show some originality and drive up in a Prius.

I was just in Texas, found myself behind a Prius with a window sticker: "That's right, I drive a hybrid. I use the money I save for ammo."