Proposed redevelopment in Seton Village
@mbaldwin I ask because this is bigger than the Gateway in downtown and that seems pretty hulking and massive to me. Which is why this seems so out of scale and inappropriate to me, especially with the graphic posted by the OP. So I'm interested in what you are comparing it with as you're also on the SV committee I think?
Thanks for the rendering, SVRPC.
I was at the original forum also. I know Doug Zacker is pro Seton Village. But I was surprised that about 30 min was given to describing their friendship, including breakfasts at Blue Plate. After all that coaching, I don't understand why the proposed building and land use is so contrary to what the latest Vision Plan projected, which reflects what the residents want. So what are people supposed to think? And the "blight" comment....
Maybe we can use some of the new grant to make it a bike rest stop
I was at the original forum also. I know Doug Zacker is pro Seton Village. But I was surprised that about 30 min was given to describing their friendship, including breakfasts at Blue Plate. After all that coaching, I don't understand why the proposed building and land use is so contrary to what the latest Vision Plan projected, which reflects what the residents want. So what are people supposed to think? And the "blight" comment....
Maybe we can use some of the new grant to make it a bike rest stop
mbaldwin said:
avocado said:
1) The close relationship of SVAC chairman Doug Zacker with the developers. Their relationship extends back to their schooldays, which gives the impression of a vested interest (either financial or social) trumping the interests of the neighborhood.
That may be your impression, but is absolutely not true. ETA: Doug Zacker's property backs up directly to the site we're discussing.
I agree that @avocado has an inaccurate impression of Doug's connections to the developers. Though I also agree with @RobinRed that the introduction at the forum was overly long (at the expense of time spent on resident questions) and I can see how confusion arises. And he does have a long standing friendship with them (which he disclosed).
But I checked the public tax records, the village green report of the forum (with the developers' plans) and Google Earth. My inner pedant wants to point out that it looks to me that his property doesn't technically touch this development (due to his neighbor's L shaped lot and a couple of long, narrow lots extending from Tichenor to W Fairview). So he would be close (it is a short block) but not actually 'backing up directly'. Technical, I know, but worth being accurate.
Also on the way home tonight I noticed another long lot, currently with a couple of homes on it, just before Beth El, extending from Irvington Ave back to Kilburn Place. If density like this goes ahead between Tichenor/Village/WFairview then what's to stop future development on long, narrow plots like that?
jersey_boy said:
My impression of Doug Zacker is that he cares deeply about the neighborhood and arranged these meetings because he does.
Ultimately, the neighborhood must speak for itself. Doug is facilitating that process.
If Mr Zacker is best buddies with the developer, he's doing more than facilitating a process.
This is in my neighborhood, and I'm for it. Irvington ave, as is, needs help, and if this kickstarts development, I'm on board. It's a major road, and I would expect that's the sort of place large buildings go. If this were proposed for a teensy side street in the the middle of a purely residential neighborhood, that's different. I don't think you can buy a home that is on the same block as a main road like this and not assume some risk that there will be development on that road. Of course, it doesn't mean you have to like it, but it isn't an unfair expectation.
dave said:
jersey_boy said:
My impression of Doug Zacker is that he cares deeply about the neighborhood and arranged these meetings because he does.
Ultimately, the neighborhood must speak for itself. Doug is facilitating that process.
If Mr Zacker is best buddies with the developer, he's doing more than facilitating a process.
Again, that is absolutely not true. To imply otherwise is grossly unfair to Doug and the hundreds and hundreds of hours he has put into improving the Irvington Avenue corridor over the past year. His passion and dedication to making this a better place to live for all of us has blown me away. He deserves much better than these innuendos.
annabanana said:
This is in my neighborhood, and I'm for it. Irvington ave, as is, needs help, and if this kickstarts development, I'm on board. It's a major road, and I would expect that's the sort of place large buildings go. If this were proposed for a teensy side street in the the middle of a purely residential neighborhood, that's different. I don't think you can buy a home that is on the same block as a main road like this and not assume some risk that there will be development on that road. Of course, it doesn't mean you have to like it, but it isn't an unfair expectation.
But the homes on Tichenor have a four story building backed up into the property lines. The building is massive.
Given that the developers are somewhat local, it may be difficult to find someone that doesn't know them. Someone who is also willing to be as involved and as passionate as Doug is. He has helped put together a great deal of events for both that neighborhood and elsewhere in SO.
Unless I am mistake, this property is not owned by Seton Village, so, regardless of his relationship, I am pretty sure that the president of a Neighborhood association has very little, if any, say in what developer gets chosen for a Village or private piece of property.
Unless I am mistake, this property is not owned by Seton Village, so, regardless of his relationship, I am pretty sure that the president of a Neighborhood association has very little, if any, say in what developer gets chosen for a Village or private piece of property.
This should not be a referendum on someone's character. Period. But once again, both mbaldwin and annabanana need to consider such an aberration in their own backyards. The majority of the homes affected are not on the main road, and are clearly on a side street in a residential neighborhood. Look at the map!!
We support development along Irvington ave as recommended by every study and plan for this area. There are already multi-family homes nearby, we get it.
The issue is density and scale. Current zoning is clear that the interior of the lot is not suited for development, due to the undeniable fact that it is blanketed by single family homes on every side. There is not enough space on this lot for a large scale development. It sets a dangerous precedent for everyone reading this--if approved it implies that developers can ignore all zoning, logic, and neighborhood concerns to propose out of scale buildings in South Orange.
We challenge everyone to show our renderings to an impartial, non-South Orange friend or colleague and ask them: does it make sense for this scale rental building on this lot?
We know what the 2009 Vision Plan answered to this question.
The issue is density and scale. Current zoning is clear that the interior of the lot is not suited for development, due to the undeniable fact that it is blanketed by single family homes on every side. There is not enough space on this lot for a large scale development. It sets a dangerous precedent for everyone reading this--if approved it implies that developers can ignore all zoning, logic, and neighborhood concerns to propose out of scale buildings in South Orange.
We challenge everyone to show our renderings to an impartial, non-South Orange friend or colleague and ask them: does it make sense for this scale rental building on this lot?
We know what the 2009 Vision Plan answered to this question.
mbaldwin said:
dave said:
jersey_boy said:
My impression of Doug Zacker is that he cares deeply about the neighborhood and arranged these meetings because he does.
Ultimately, the neighborhood must speak for itself. Doug is facilitating that process.
If Mr Zacker is best buddies with the developer, he's doing more than facilitating a process.
Again, that is absolutely not true. To imply otherwise is grossly unfair to Doug and the hundreds and hundreds of hours he has put into improving the Irvington Avenue corridor over the past year. His passion and dedication to making this a better place to live for all of us has blown me away. He deserves much better than these innuendos.
What on Earth are you talking about? This isn't an innuendo. He admits to being friends with the developer. It's weird and people have the right to ask pointed questions.
I think it's great that the neighborhood is getting engaged in positive changes that are happening along Irvington Avenue. What I hope we can all keep in mind is that this is the very beginning of the development process for this particular piece of land -- and for the Irvington Avenue corridor, in general. The developers came to the community to solicit feedback on their plans -- and they sure got it! 
They didn't have to have a public forum to share their plans -- they wanted a public forum to hear what we all thought of their proposal.
That is how this process should work. And it's working!
There will be plenty of more opportunities for all the neighbors to be heard. Formally, the process for public input has not even begun. The developers have been very open to feedback and have made changes already based on preliminary sketches. I've seen myself that they do listen to what the neighbors say and incorporate that into their thinking for this property.
We're very lucky to have developers that have roots in this community and actually live here. That's a rare thing.
They didn't have to have a public forum to share their plans -- they wanted a public forum to hear what we all thought of their proposal. That is how this process should work. And it's working!
There will be plenty of more opportunities for all the neighbors to be heard. Formally, the process for public input has not even begun. The developers have been very open to feedback and have made changes already based on preliminary sketches. I've seen myself that they do listen to what the neighbors say and incorporate that into their thinking for this property.
We're very lucky to have developers that have roots in this community and actually live here. That's a rare thing.
dave said:
mbaldwin said:
dave said:
jersey_boy said:
My impression of Doug Zacker is that he cares deeply about the neighborhood and arranged these meetings because he does.
Ultimately, the neighborhood must speak for itself. Doug is facilitating that process.
If Mr Zacker is best buddies with the developer, he's doing more than facilitating a process.
Again, that is absolutely not true. To imply otherwise is grossly unfair to Doug and the hundreds and hundreds of hours he has put into improving the Irvington Avenue corridor over the past year. His passion and dedication to making this a better place to live for all of us has blown me away. He deserves much better than these innuendos.
What on Earth are you talking about? This isn't an innuendo. He admits to being friends with the developer. It's weird and people have the right to ask pointed questions.
No, the developer is lucky to have a friend who is "facilitating" the development process.
I hope the neighbors find legal representation.
I hope the neighbors find legal representation.
Openly acknowledging a conflict of interest doesn't eliminate or mitigate it. If the "facilitator" of this dialogue has a close personal relationship with the developer, he should recuse himself from his role.
As for the scale of that proposed development, it's ridiculous and clearly disproportionate to its surroundings.
As for the scale of that proposed development, it's ridiculous and clearly disproportionate to its surroundings.
This is truly an awful proposal and out of character with the neighborhood. I hope this gets the same scrutiny as the Orange Lawn development because this looks like even more intensive use of property. Someone used the term "shoehorn" and that's pretty accurate. This seems even closer to the neighbors than the monolith going on on Third and Valley.
Sadly, Mr. Zacker's comments in the Village Green article make me question the credibility of the Seton Village Committee, which at this point seems like a mouthpiece for developers' interests. Can we go back to organizing food truck festivals instead of working to line developers pockets?
Sadly, Mr. Zacker's comments in the Village Green article make me question the credibility of the Seton Village Committee, which at this point seems like a mouthpiece for developers' interests. Can we go back to organizing food truck festivals instead of working to line developers pockets?
dave said:
No, the developer is lucky to have a friend who is "facilitating" the development process.
I hope the neighbors find legal representation.
+1
annabanana said:
This is in my neighborhood, and I'm for it. Irvington ave, as is, needs help, and if this kickstarts development, I'm on board. It's a major road, and I would expect that's the sort of place large buildings go. If this were proposed for a teensy side street in the the middle of a purely residential neighborhood, that's different. I don't think you can buy a home that is on the same block as a main road like this and not assume some risk that there will be development on that road. Of course, it doesn't mean you have to like it, but it isn't an unfair expectation.
The attached photo is a hundred or so feet away from the proposed development. It IS a residential side street, and this is why every Village plan and idea for this area capped development at Irvington ave, without going into our residential block.
Mar 25, 2015 at 3:30am Edited
In the community forum that the Seton Village Committee set up to make sure the neighborhood is heard on this project as early and as often as possible I felt obliged to acknowledge that Josh and I know each other because our daughters, who are now in 2nd grade, have been in school together since preschool. To say we have a "close personal relationship" or are "best buddies" is beyond a stretch, unless that's a description of people who chat for a few minutes over a bunch of years during pick up/drop off at birthday parties or who give a smile while dropping kids at school. David and I met when they recently reached out to me so we could have an ongoing conversation about this project and I could help them communicate to the community. Because David lives down the street from me, I consider him a neighbor.
If the fact that I haven't demonized them or their project leads people to believe I have a hidden agenda then I'm sorry that you can't see the forest through the trees. I am aware of the process ahead and simply believe that our community is better served by maintaining a good relationship with the people who would like to build in our backyards.
If you don't know that my house is at the end of W Fairview and backs up to this property as well now you do. In fact, I am two houses away from the photo that SVRFPC just posted.
Personally, I would love to see something built there even if that means I can see it from my back door or from other places around the neighborhood. I have lived in a couple of places where the most coveted properties are near areas that blend high density and single family homes in a manner that works for everyone. I think Seton Village needs something like this to bring people, some street life and some newness (for lack of a better word). None of this is to say that I think the development, as currently presented, is the final, best answer.
As was stated in the community forum, online, at the BOT meeting and through emails, there are lots of issues to be worked out. I agree with lots of what has been said and am also concerned about many aspects of this building, which is exactly why I am involved. All of these things continue to be discussed with the developers and there is lots of time and many public places for all of it to be discussed and addressed.
We all want positive change. My approach to positive change is to not say no to possibilities, to keep an open mind, to trust those who are deserving of trust, be skeptical when necessary, base my opinions on facts presented by credible sources, be patient when there's a long road ahead, appreciate that lots of emotions are involved, and ultimately know that in a diverse community no one will get exactly what they want. I have no doubt most of my neighbors feel the same.
I, personally, am excited by the prospects and the conversations.
If the fact that I haven't demonized them or their project leads people to believe I have a hidden agenda then I'm sorry that you can't see the forest through the trees. I am aware of the process ahead and simply believe that our community is better served by maintaining a good relationship with the people who would like to build in our backyards.
If you don't know that my house is at the end of W Fairview and backs up to this property as well now you do. In fact, I am two houses away from the photo that SVRFPC just posted.
Personally, I would love to see something built there even if that means I can see it from my back door or from other places around the neighborhood. I have lived in a couple of places where the most coveted properties are near areas that blend high density and single family homes in a manner that works for everyone. I think Seton Village needs something like this to bring people, some street life and some newness (for lack of a better word). None of this is to say that I think the development, as currently presented, is the final, best answer.
As was stated in the community forum, online, at the BOT meeting and through emails, there are lots of issues to be worked out. I agree with lots of what has been said and am also concerned about many aspects of this building, which is exactly why I am involved. All of these things continue to be discussed with the developers and there is lots of time and many public places for all of it to be discussed and addressed.
We all want positive change. My approach to positive change is to not say no to possibilities, to keep an open mind, to trust those who are deserving of trust, be skeptical when necessary, base my opinions on facts presented by credible sources, be patient when there's a long road ahead, appreciate that lots of emotions are involved, and ultimately know that in a diverse community no one will get exactly what they want. I have no doubt most of my neighbors feel the same.
I, personally, am excited by the prospects and the conversations.
If you can, also show photos from the lot itself as it is seen from backyards on West Fairview. Pretty scary stuff!
anniewannie said:
If you can, also show photos from the lot itself as it is seen from backyards on West Fairview. Pretty scary stuff!
Tichenor looks even scarier I think. Looks like small houses being loomed over by a Gateway style hulk. That hulk would also be the main identifier of this area from the approach from downtown.
I appreciate that Doug lives in close proximity to the project but I hardly think that most of his neighbors share enthusiasm for the high density "blend". Many people who purposely buy a home in a residential area could not possibly anticipate or desire a transient apartment building in their backyard. As for the need to bring more "people", "street life", and "newness" to the area, it was clear from the wonderful events planned by the Seton Village Committee that there are plenty of residents (hundreds, in fact) who came over and participated. Maybe some "newness" to the existing structures and a few more hot businesses should be the priority instead. I don't buy the theory that high density development is the magic bullet that will solve problems within the current corridor. If census maps are to be believed, this entire side of town is already the most densely populated area in South Orange.
flipfantasia said:
Tichenor looks even scarier I think. Looks like small houses being loomed over by a Gateway style hulk. That hulk would also be the main identifier of this area from the approach from downtown.
Good point, flipfantasia. That block on Irvington does have 2.5 story homes that are being used as residential. Even the subject property has a historic home that has been poorly renovated. Developing in a style compatible with the existing use and aesthetic, along with low commercial/resid opposite, would provide a more fitting entry into the area.
The tall apartment building opposite W Fairview was somehow finagled into that location, and there is no desire to replicate that scale. It is understandable that residents are suspicious of anything that appears to be nontransparent, or has even a whiff of the "cronyism" that was seen in this town in the past.
Mar 25, 2015 at 4:09am Edited
I remember when the apartment (condos?) went up on Highland Place in Maplewood (between Maplewood Ave and Everitt Place). They replaced some single-family homes, but were eventually designed to be low-rise, separate buildings, with staggered layouts and a good number of trees/shrubs left in the area. It sort of fits in, and doesn't have a monolithic/huge presence.
I think if something like this were proposed for the Seton Village site it would be a better fit with the neighborhood and still bring residents into the area to support the local businesses and the town.
I think if something like this were proposed for the Seton Village site it would be a better fit with the neighborhood and still bring residents into the area to support the local businesses and the town.
peter_watts said:
This is truly an awful proposal and out of character with the neighborhood. I hope this gets the same scrutiny as the Orange Lawn development because this looks like even more intensive use of property. Someone used the term "shoehorn" and that's pretty accurate. This seems even closer to the neighbors than the monolith going on on Third and Valley.
Sadly, Mr. Zacker's comments in the Village Green article make me question the credibility of the Seton Village Committee, which at this point seems like a mouthpiece for developers' interests. Can we go back to organizing food truck festivals instead of working to line developers pockets?
I've been thinking the same thing, why not just build a 1-story commercial building and leave it at that.
A 1-story commercial building is not as profitable as a 4-story apartment building - a developer would have no interest. It's too bad that piece of land can't be turned into a nice little park.
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Where do you live? Where is comparable to the size of this development?