Paris

Do nothing about any monstrous slaughter because we have not done something about every monstrous slaughter.  Not your most persuasive argument, BG9.   Maybe you are a Quaker. 

I don't want to send in American troops because we only made things worse.  That's my argument. Human intelligence, creepy NSA data collection, winning hearts and minds on the Internet, tighter border control, stepped up training for quick response among first responders, adding personnel among first responders and monitors--maybe this stuff would help.

Well as was predicted but ignored, the "refugee crisis" gave cover for terrorists to enter Europe.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/619447/Paris-terrorist-Syrian-refugee-Greece-government-official

BREAKING: Paris terrorist was a Syrian refugee, says Greece government official

@Dave

Is there a way I can block all posts by someone with the word "zoinks" in their username?  

Sorry Xavier but it is necessary to say it to parry the comments that routinely come up in threads like this to the effect that every "religion has its fanatics", typically followed by citations to far more discreet infrequent location-specific conflicts.  Check this list out, its mind boggling.    

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

It's no more meaningful to call ISIS very Islamic than it is to say, as many non-adherents wishfully say on this forum, that they are unIslamic. 

mbaldwin said:

case said:
Mbaldwin, who cares what the Koran says? 

The vast, vast majority of peaceful, faithful followers of Islam who adhere to the same basic tenants of Christian religions. 

Where is the big uprising of peaceful, faithful followers of Islam against those who use it to perpetrate these heinous crimes?

bub said:
Sorry Xavier but it is necessary to say it to parry the comments that routinely come up in threads like this to the effect that every "religion has its fanatics", typically followed by citations to far more discreet infrequent location-specific conflicts.  Check this list out, its mind boggling.    

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks
It's no more meaningful to call ISIS very Islamic than it is to say, as many non-adherents wishfully say on this forum, that they are unIslamic. 
 

While I would agree that the view "every religion has its fanatics" isn't particularly helpful, I'm curious why you feel it's important to point out the "Islamic" nature of ISIS? What's your larger point?

eliz said:
Where is the big uprising of peaceful, faithful followers of Islam against those who use it to perpetrate these heinous crimes?

And their leaders? Haven't heard very much  

breal said:
I don't want to send in American troops because we only made things worse.  That's my argument. Human intelligence, creepy NSA data collection, winning hearts and minds on the Internet, tighter border control, stepped up training for quick response among first responders, adding personnel among first responders and monitors--maybe this stuff would help.

You don't win the hearts and minds of sociopaths.

breal said:
Do nothing about any monstrous slaughter because we have not done something about every monstrous slaughter.  Not your most persuasive argument, BG9.   Maybe you are a Quaker. 

I'm not a Quaker. I gave a possible answer to ISIS. But if you start then finish what you start.

As appealing as genocide may be to you, it never really works out.

case said:
Mbaldwin, who cares what the Koran says?  If the local Methodists started systematically torturing and killing people I'd be in favor of wiping THEM off the planet as well... and I was raised Methodist!

ajc said:
"Who do you mean by "them?" Who do you think mbaldwin? Just the kind of question we've come to expect from the uninformed, so in case like many on the left, you're confused, why not start by anyone living here in America who is unwilling to swear allegiance to our country... And, anyone here illegally, or who is unwilling to assimilate and learn to speak English; or if they're not 100% with us; then IMHO, they're against us; and if not U.S. citizens, they need to be deported.

Well, bless your heart. 

BubbaTerp said:
  Islam needs a major internal reckoning and rejection of violence. 

I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, I don't think the good ole USA is in any position to advocate for the rejection of violence. We're an incredibly violent country at home and abroad. 

Xavier:

I think its more of a fact than a point.  Whether its authentically Islamic in authentically Islamic or something else, there is distinct  substantial phenomenon  of terroristic violence in the world today that thinks of itself as Islamic and justifies itself by the Koran.    What are we supposed to say "there's some violent militant group in Iraq ans Syria" without mentioning the ubiquity of its self-professed Islamic character?    

Maybe the the issue here is ISIS.  And the ISIS suicide terrorists that killed 120 plus persons in Paris.  Reforming Islam -- that's maybe not our issue. 

BG9, no need to bring up Pol Pot - as I recall the Allies found a way to deal with Hilter and the Nazis, right?  I'm no student of WWII but if I'm not mistaken we attacked and destroyed them.  We didn't kill every single German national, of course, but I think the parallel works reasonably well.

And we're never going to 'reform' Islam - and we certainly don't need to do so.  Destroy ISIS on the ground and from the air, and I'm sure Islam will be just fine.  In fact, with the radical elements removed, we'd be helping Islam to prosper, right?

Does anyone recall seeing this documentary way back in 1988?

 http://www.csmonitor.com/1988/0111/lsword.html

It was all there and it sure was right....

this entire situation in the Middle East remains an outgrowth of WWI and the fall of the ottomans.  Perhaps WWI never really ended.

xavier67 said:

bub said:
Sorry Xavier but it is necessary to say it to parry the comments that routinely come up in threads like this to the effect that every "religion has its fanatics", typically followed by citations to far more discreet infrequent location-specific conflicts.  Check this list out, its mind boggling.    

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks
It's no more meaningful to call ISIS very Islamic than it is to say, as many non-adherents wishfully say on this forum, that they are unIslamic. 
 

While I would agree that the view "every religion has its fanatics" isn't particularly helpful, I'm curious why you feel it's important to point out the "Islamic" nature of ISIS? What's your larger point?

They have declared themselves the caliphate so that's a big reason why the Islamic nature is important. Do you know what the caliphate and caliph were and their importance?

librarylady said:

eliz said:
Where is the big uprising of peaceful, faithful followers of Islam against those who use it to perpetrate these heinous crimes?

And their leaders? Haven't heard very much  

Plenty of Muslim leaders have denounced the Paris attacks.  Here is only one such example:

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/166546/Egypt/Politics-/Egypts-top-Muslim-cleric-denounces-hideous-Paris-a.aspx

I was living in Egypt on 9/11 and I can promise you that every Muslim Egyptian I came into contact with in the days and weeks afterwards was horrified at that terrorist attack.  One after the next, they assured me that they didn't hate Americans.  I, in return, assured them that not all Americans thought that all Muslims were terrorists.  

And yet the Muslim brotherhood and Hamas were cheering and handing out candy on 9/11

cmarym said:

librarylady said:

eliz said:
Where is the big uprising of peaceful, faithful followers of Islam against those who use it to perpetrate these heinous crimes?

And their leaders? Haven't heard very much  

Plenty of Muslim leaders have denounced the Paris attacks.  Here is only one such example:
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/166546/Egypt/Politics-/Egypts-top-Muslim-cleric-denounces-hideous-Paris-a.aspx

I was living in Egypt on 9/11 and I can promise you that every Muslim Egyptian I came into contact with in the days and weeks afterwards was horrified at that terrorist attack.  One after the next, they assured me that they didn't hate Americans.  I, in return, assured them that not all Americans thought that all Muslims were terrorists.  

And 

Any sect of religion/ society that excludes women and abuses their human rights is faulty at its core. The book, Half the Sky asks why Islamic countries are at the top of the list for abuses against women?  You don't treat half of your population like ***** and have a peaceful world view. 

h4daniel said:
Any sect of religion/ society that excludes women and abuses their human rights is faulty at its core.

I quite agree with h4daniel, but then I'm female so, you know.

Also, I just want to add that it is well past time for us Anglophones to quit using the term "ISIS" and "ISIL" to refer to DAESH:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/14/1449898/-A-Call-to-Linguistic-Arms-CallThemDaesh

More linguistic detail: https://www.freewordcentre.com/blog/2015/02/daesh-isis-media-alice-guthrie/

h4daniel said:
Any sect of religion/ society that excludes women...

Then say hello to the catholic church.  Let's not pretend like this is an isolated stance, unfortunately. 

Mbaldwin, I would not for a moment defend Christian (or Orthodox Jewish) institutional misogyny. But it does no good to draw unwarranted comparisons with Islam, which encountered no reformation, never contended with an Enlightenment, and has no officially liberal stream. 

Would you rather be a woman in Rome or a woman in Saudi Arabia?

JCSO said:
Mbaldwin, I would not for a moment defend Christian (or Orthodox Jewish) institutional misogyny. But it does no good to draw unwarranted comparisons with Islam...

I disagree. I think it's interesting to draw parallels where they exist when we're having an "us vs them" discussion. 

yes Baldwin I agree, but tell me why in our present day the countries that have the most abuses against women are Muslim? Even though the Catholic Church is messed up, there is not any sect I know that sanctions cutting a 6 year old girl's clitoris off or dousing a girl in acid because she looked at a boy.  Pretty awful taking girls and making them work in a laundry in Ireland when they had babies out of wedlock, but they still had a clitoris and a face. FGM, childhood brides, no access to education, forced marriages, requirements of veiling, honor killings - watch The Honor Diaries. A powerful film that asks some really hard questions. These hard questions can be asked by the women in the film because they are Muslim women. These women accuse people of not speaking up because they are afraid of being labeled as Islamphobes. 

librarylady said:

eliz said:
Where is the big uprising of peaceful, faithful followers of Islam against those who use it to perpetrate these heinous crimes?

And their leaders? Haven't heard very much  

Well, there's this: http://qz.com/550104/muslims-around-the-world-condemn-terrorism-after-the-paris-attacks/ 

h4daniel said:
yes Baldwin I agree, but tell me why in our present day the countries that have the most abuses against women are Muslim? Even though the Catholic Church is messed up, there is not any sect I know that sanctions cutting a 6 year old girl's clitoris off or dousing a girl in acid because she looked at a boy.  

FGM is not required by Islam.  It is cultural, not religious.

The majority of acid attacks are revenge as a result of a man feeling spurned by a woman not accepting his sexual advances or marriage proposal, not because she "looked at a boy."

And how do you know this, that it is not looking a boy the wrong way? Where are you getting your information? 

this hippie nonsense is reason #1 #2 and #3 why the West will keep getting hit with Islamic terrorist attacks.  

Memo to the hippies:  the only way Islamic terror will stop is complete and total humiliation and defeat.  Just like Nazi Germany and imperialist Japan in WWII--total defeat.  anything less than that means you and yours are not safe. 

mbaldwin said:

Jasmo said:
There are extremists in every religion, "True Believers" using violence to destroy anyone who is the evil "Other."  I have a lot more in common with those in other faiths who practice tolerance and understanding than with extremists in my own.  Consider the Orthodox Jewish extremist who assassinated Prime Minister Rabin, which contributed to the destruction of the peace process between Israel and Palestine.  How about the fundamentalist Christians in this country, who conflate Christianity with nationalism and feel justified in killing those they disagree with?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism .  Then there are the Buddhists in Myanmar committing ethnic cleansing against a minority Muslim sect.  http://fpif.org/buddhism-ethnic-cleansing-myanmar/.  It is a mistake to conflate the violence of an extremist minority with the higher spiritual yearnings, practices and principles that exist in each of the the world's religions.  

This.  Exactly.