math placement letters
Amyhiger, I did talk with Dr. Beattys and yes, she confirmed that there were questions in the PT-6 test that contained errors. Those questions were discounted from assessment and all students were given 5 points towards them regardless of the answers provided. She also shared my son's scores for the regular placement test (out of 100) and the accelerated portion (out of 10). From what I understand, the 6th grade placement--and invitation to the summer step-up program-- seems to be wholly determined on the basis on that 10 point score. Only if a child is "close enough" (the cutoff was not mentioned) will s/he get invited to the step-up program. It is not open to all; in fact they seem to be hard-nosed about not letting anyone else in.
What it doesn't account for is the time taken for students to try to figure out why their answer doesn't match an option. So, kids who were more tenacious on those question!S! may suffer elsewhere.
They can't even do quality assurance on their own test, but yet think their high-stakes decisions are perfectly predictive based on 10 points? If true that they won't even allow students a chance to demonstrate their potential by other means (e.g., attending a step-up class) if their 'perfect predictor' didn't indicate potential for that child's success, that is...Ridiculous.
rch2330 said:
The math does get harder starting with Geometry. As an example for the Algebra 2 class, the level 5 teacher that my tenth grader had gave 20 minute quizzes, 10 problems, go ! Either you got it or you didn't.
I would recommend it if your child likes math, likes a challenge and with the understanding, you get always drop back down to level 4 and stay in the accelerated path.
Our 10th grader had the same class, and probably the same teacher.
We did not ask for that placement. Had I known the class would be conducted in a manner geared strictly to only the most agile thinkers, I would have asked that our kid be assigned to the level 4 class from the get go. (Just to echo what SAC said above, as long as a student does honors Algebra 1 by 8th grade and thus Geometry by 9th, s/he is on track for Calculus in 12th. However, I have no idea why a majority of college bound students think they need Calculus instead of some other advanced math class more relevant to their interests. It's like an article of faith.)
My understanding is that several other kids also dropped down from this particular class. I wonder if, under Osborne, so much emphasis had been placed on pushing kids ahead in math that too large a percentage were being placed inappropriately. Either that or the sink-or-swim model for advanced students is shortchanging a portion of the kids who could otherwise do well.
The upside for students who do succeed in the win-or-fall back system, though, is that the hyper-competitive environment becomes some sort of marker of native ability (and lack of disability). But given the degree to which class style and quality are teacher-dependent here, and maybe everywhere, it's hard to know whether Level 5/Advanced Algebra 2 is narrowly pitched across the board, or just in some classrooms.
JCSO said:(Just to echo what SAC said above, as long as a student does honors Algebra 1 by 8th grade and thus Geometry by 9th, s/he is on track for Calculus in 12th. However, I have no idea why a majority of college bound students think they need Calculus instead of some other advanced math class more relevant to their interests. It's like an article of faith.)
"Calculus" seems to be the pinnacle of the religion the Math supervisor subscribes to. However, Common Core suggests that the 'top' of the math ladder should be more diversified (as shown on the Common Core math pathways diagram on pg. 4 of their document: Designing High School Mathematics Courses Based on the Common Core State Standards).
http://www.corestandards.org/assets/CCSSI_Mathematics_Appendix_A.pdf
Thanks for the link, Sprout. In glancing over the intro pages I realized I attributed to Brian Osborne a possibly too-broad push to accelerate that might simply be a result of the district striving to adopt the CCSS.
Re Calculus, official catechism aside, it isn't the only advanced math option our students can take. I'm not sure what else is available, but there is at the very least Advanced Statistics.
When I attended AP night, it seemed like the Math supervisor was encouraging students to take the statistics course AND Pre-calc at the same time (or something along those lines?). My read was that Statistics was not to get in the way of getting to the great and extraordinary experience of Calculus.
compmama said:
Amyhiger, I did talk with Dr. Beattys and yes, she confirmed that there were questions in the PT-6 test that contained errors. Those questions were discounted from assessment and all students were given 5 points towards them regardless of the answers provided. She also shared my son's scores for the regular placement test (out of 100) and the accelerated portion (out of 10). From what I understand, the 6th grade placement--and invitation to the summer step-up program-- seems to be wholly determined on the basis on that 10 point score. Only if a child is "close enough" (the cutoff was not mentioned) will s/he get invited to the step-up program. It is not open to all; in fact they seem to be hard-nosed about not letting anyone else in.
Thanks for the information, compmama. It is puzzling to me that this sort of error would not invalidate, or at least render problematic, the rigid use of this score for placement purposes. It also problematic that the district and particularly the math supervisor did not publicize the error, and the information is only available through people sharing their personal experience on MOL.
sprout said:
What it doesn't account for is the time taken for students to try to figure out why their answer doesn't match an option. So, kids who were more tenacious on those question!S! may suffer elsewhere.
They can't even do quality assurance on their own test, but yet think their high-stakes decisions are perfectly predictive based on 10 points? If true that they won't even allow students a chance to demonstrate their potential by other means (e.g., attending a step-up class) if their 'perfect predictor' didn't indicate potential for that child's success, that is...Ridiculous.
Yes, ridiculous. For a child who suffers from test anxiety, especially for high-stakes tests such as this one (and they ALL know on test day this is THE BIG ONE) this is especially disturbing. It could derail a child entirely, if he or she spent a long time trying to figure out a question for which there was NO correct answer. The idea that the math supervisor could just "give back five points" (and we don't know if this is full-credit or partial credit) and call it even is also highly problematic.
at the ap meeting, the supervisor said that taking h.s. calculus is seen by colleges as a predictor of a student's ability to take rigorous coursework, no matter whether the student was going into the sciences or liberal arts. she heavily implied that the absence of CALCULUS would look bad on a transcript. i don't recall her saying students should take pre-calc and ap stats at the same time, but if she did, that's crazy talk.
That's what I remember as well from the AP forum.
Though I think she was recommending accelerated 10th grade pre-calc students take ap stats the same year, so that they wouldn't have to take it when they're taking ap calc in 11th or advanced topics in 12th, assuming they continue with higher math classes.
pageturn said:
at the ap meeting, the supervisor said that taking h.s. calculus is seen by colleges as a predictor of a student's ability to take rigorous coursework, no matter whether the student was going into the sciences or liberal arts. she heavily implied that the absence of CALCULUS would look bad on a transcript. i don't recall her saying students should take pre-calc and ap stats at the same time, but if she did, that's crazy talk.
compmama said:
Amyhiger, I did talk with Dr. Beattys and yes, she confirmed that there were questions in the PT-6 test that contained errors. Those questions were discounted from assessment and all students were given 5 points towards them regardless of the answers provided. She also shared my son's scores for the regular placement test (out of 100) and the accelerated portion (out of 10). From what I understand, the 6th grade placement--and invitation to the summer step-up program-- seems to be wholly determined on the basis on that 10 point score. Only if a child is "close enough" (the cutoff was not mentioned) will s/he get invited to the step-up program. It is not open to all; in fact they seem to be hard-nosed about not letting anyone else in.
Hi again compmama. I'm disturbed by this information because my daughter was "invited" to the summer math program based on her PT-6 test score. If there were indeed any errors such as what you describe, how can I know for sure that they didn't make the difference in her "three points away" from missing the "cut off"? Would you be willing to share this information with me off line? No problem if you don't, but MOL is a little frustrating because of the anonymity and anonymous sources may not carry much weight with the district! Thank you.
pageturn said:
at the ap meeting, the supervisor said that taking h.s. calculus is seen by colleges as a predictor of a student's ability to take rigorous coursework, no matter whether the student was going into the sciences or liberal arts. she heavily implied that the absence of CALCULUS would look bad on a transcript.
If that's what she conveyed then it strikes me as kind of parochial. Extremely strong/talented students who don't plan to major in quantitative subjects might not need it. For instance, this commenter at College Confidential:
"I got into Harvard, Georgetown, Duke, and Stanford last year without Calculus AB, BC, or even precalculus in high school. I was also fortunate enough to be named a National Merit Finalist. In my opinion, my first-year college math classes were not terribly difficult even without prior exposure to Calculus. That being said, I made sure to take most of the other AP classes my school offered that interested me (APUSH, AP Euro, AP Chem, Lit, Lang...). Also, my majors are not math intensive (Criminology and Spanish, with the hopes of attending law school). It shouldn't hurt your son too much, depending on his academic interests, extracurricular activities, and performance in other classes."
There are arts programs (performing, visual, music) at some competitive universities that require only a token amount of math at all, once you're in. I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have taken Calculus in HS, but if the rest of the transcript reflects a demanding load (4 years of foreign language, honors & APs, evidence of focused interests), I hardly think it's a dealbreaker not to.
On the other hand, taking Calc might help maximize a kid's SAT/ACT scores.
But on the other, other hand, probably some other advanced math is just as good?
JCSO said:On the other hand, taking Calc might help maximize a kid's SAT/ACT scores.
But on the other, other hand, probably some other advanced math is just as good?
The Math SAT does not include calculus.... but it does include statistics. From the https://sat.collegeboard.org/about-tests/sat/faq (Under "What does the SAT test?"):
- The math section includes questions on arithmetic operations, algebra, geometry, statistics and probability.
Well, there you go!
Honestly, we encourage our smart, industrious kid to follow her interests and do her best work every day. It will be more than good enough. Refuse to get too caught up in the game.
tbd said:
That's what I remember as well from the AP forum.
Though I think she was recommending accelerated 10th grade pre-calc students take ap stats the same year, so that they wouldn't have to take it when they're taking ap calc in 11th or advanced topics in 12th, assuming they continue with higher math classes.
pageturn said:
at the ap meeting, the supervisor said that taking h.s. calculus is seen by colleges as a predictor of a student's ability to take rigorous coursework, no matter whether the student was going into the sciences or liberal arts. she heavily implied that the absence of CALCULUS would look bad on a transcript. i don't recall her saying students should take pre-calc and ap stats at the same time, but if she did, that's crazy talk.
From the placement document, the prereq's for Statistics AP:
AP Statistics Prerequisite:
- B- average or better in Honors Precalculus (course 12-4) or a C average or better in Advanced Pre-calculus Honors (course 11-5)
- Co-requisite: registered for Precalculus (course 12-4 or 11-5)
- Performance on Statistics Qualifying Test (an objective test, with open-ended items) administered in late January or early February
- Recommendation of the current math teacher
So it seems like the choices are to either take AP Stats with Pre-calc, or with calculus, or after calculus (if you are accelerated), or instead of calculus. Is there a statistics course offered that isn't AP?
sprout said:
So it seems like the choices are to either take AP Stats with Pre-calc, or with calculus, or after calculus (if you are accelerated), or instead of calculus. Is there a statistics course offered that isn't AP?
No, there aren't any other statistics courses offered at CHS besides the AP. Our kid elected to defer his enrollment in AP Stats as there was enough going on in his schedule to keep him more than busy. I believe once you get in, you can take it any year after that.
I know I'm getting overly hung up on AP Stats here (my personal take is that it is far more relevant than Calculus for students who plan to go into fields like psychology or journalism). But my final point is that the College Board's recommendation for preparation for AP Stat is actually not Pre-calc, but Algebra II:
From: https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse/ap-statistics
Recommended course preparation- Successful completion of second-year course in algebra
- Demonstration of sufficient mathematical maturity and quantitative reasoning ability
sprout said:
But my final point is that the College Board's recommendation for preparation for AP Stat is actually not Pre-calc, but Algebra II:
Remember, Pre-calc is not required as preparation for AP Stats at CHS. They can be taken concurrently. (The first two bullet points you cited above, I assume, are either/or.)
Right... I guess it's that Pre-calc is not required to be a co-requisite by College Board. And I have in my AP night notes that the math Supervisor described pre-calc as the Math Dept's hardest course ("harder than calculus").
I can't speak to how much colleges really look at pre-calc/calc as a piece of the admissions puzzle for students who indicate non-STEM intended majors. And I DON'T WANT TO DISCOUNT CALCULUS it if it really is heavily counted for non-STEM majors (although from the anecdote above from JCSO, the person did well in admissions w/out pre-calc or calc, so it looks like there are other ways to demonstrate strengths).
With that disclaimer, my thought: The Common Core diagram makes pre-calc/calc appear to be just one option of several in advanced math topics. The College Board doesn't require these courses as a pre- or co- requisite to AP Stat. So, to me it looks like AP Stat could serve as a nice-looking AP course on a transcript for those who are going into fields that have Statistics as part of their college curriculum (like Psych).
And if the student is the type who is doing great in AP Psych, and is likely to struggle substantially through the super-tough pre-calc class, why force that on them, instead of encouraging them to just take AP Stat instead (which on a quick read, seems like a nice complement to the AP Psych course)... and may better demonstrate to colleges the student's capability to be academically inclined in psychology?
Can anyone who has been trying to find out more about their student's Sixth Grade math placement let me know who they found to be most responsive. I have e-mailed and left phone messages but so far had no response.
Additionally, has the district been prepared to tell you the actual results of your child's PT-6 test?
hiraeth said:
Can anyone who has been trying to find out more about their student's Sixth Grade math placement let me know who they found to be most responsive. I have e-mailed and left phone messages but so far had no response.
Additionally, has the district been prepared to tell you the actual results of your child's PT-6 test?
Last year it took some tenacity but we eventually got Dr. Beattys on the phone and she walked us through all the test results and discussed the math placement. Keep in mind she is fielding calls from hundreds a parents so it may take a while. Emails will not be responded to.
weirdbeard said:
hiraeth said:Last year it took some tenacity but we eventually got Dr. Beattys on the phone and she walked us through all the test results and discussed the math placement. Keep in mind she is fielding calls from hundreds a parents so it may take a while. Emails will not be responded to.
Can anyone who has been trying to find out more about their student's Sixth Grade math placement let me know who they found to be most responsive. I have e-mailed and left phone messages but so far had no response.
Additionally, has the district been prepared to tell you the actual results of your child's PT-6 test?
Doesn't it seem a bit ridiculous that the issue is so complex and non-transparent that Dr. Beattys has to filed hundreds of calls to personally explain placement to individual families?
I'm past the point for it to matter to me, but this seems crazy.
mjh said:
weirdbeard said:Doesn't it seem a bit ridiculous that the issue is so complex and non-transparent that Dr. Beattys has to filed hundreds of calls to personally explain placement to individual families?
hiraeth said:Last year it took some tenacity but we eventually got Dr. Beattys on the phone and she walked us through all the test results and discussed the math placement. Keep in mind she is fielding calls from hundreds a parents so it may take a while. Emails will not be responded to.
Can anyone who has been trying to find out more about their student's Sixth Grade math placement let me know who they found to be most responsive. I have e-mailed and left phone messages but so far had no response.
Additionally, has the district been prepared to tell you the actual results of your child's PT-6 test?
I'm past the point for it to matter to me, but this seems crazy.
I agree. Why not just put the scores in the letter to parents instead of making hundreds of parents attempt to reach someone who can tell them the scores? Makes no sense. Also don't understand why they can't give the summer step-up invitations in early or mid-May instead of early June after many parents have made final camp payments. Very frustrating.
Why is the PT-6 test classified information? I've now spoken to two 5th grade math teachers, one at Clinton and one at Seth Boyden, and the vice principal at Seth Boyden, and they told me flat out that they themselves are not allowed to see this test, that they are not allow to talk about the test, that they are completely out of the loop. In fact, the teachers cannot see the results of this test. These are our children's teachers. I got the strong impression from both teachers that they were extremely frustrated with this Soviet-style system (my term, not theirs). I certainly would be if my job was to teach children math and my students were being assessed through a test that I was forbidden to look at, or see the results of. I understand trying to maintain the integrity of a testing process, but is this top-down control of teachers and secrecy of this test, what's on it, and how it is used really the only way to do this?
sprout said:
I know I'm getting overly hung up on AP Stats here (my personal take is that it is far more relevant than Calculus for students who plan to go into fields like psychology or journalism). But my final point is that the College Board's recommendation for preparation for AP Stat is actually not Pre-calc, but Algebra II:
From: https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/apcourse/ap-statistics
Recommended course preparation
- Successful completion of second-year course in algebra
- Demonstration of sufficient mathematical maturity and quantitative reasoning ability
I thought you could take the qualification test while taking Algebra II and take Ap Stats the following year without having to take Pre-Calc, no?
I agree that AP Stat is probably more relevant than calc for non- Math/Engineering type majors.
amyhiger said:
Why is the PT-6 test classified information? I've now spoken to two 5th grade math teachers, one at Clinton and one at Seth Boyden, and the vice principal at Seth Boyden, and they told me flat out that they themselves are not allowed to see this test, that they are not allow to talk about the test, that they are completely out of the loop. In fact, the teachers cannot see the results of this test. These are our children's teachers. I got the strong impression from both teachers that they were extremely frustrated with this Soviet-style system (my term, not theirs). I certainly would be if my job was to teach children math and my students were being assessed through a test that I was forbidden to look at, or see the results of. I understand trying to maintain the integrity of a testing process, but is this top-down control of teachers and secrecy of this test, what's on it, and how it is used really the only way to do this?
Not trying to minimize how frustrating the process is, and certainly not sure that this is the only way it has to be done, but I suspect that part of the secrecy of the test has to do with the fact that they are trying to test kids for aptitude on material that they haven't been exposed to, ie the next years curriculum. I suspect that if 5th grade teachers were familiar with the test material then they might be tempted to teach to the test.
tbd said:
Not trying to minimize how frustrating the process is, and certainly not sure that this is the only way it has to be done, but I suspect that part of the secrecy of the test has to do with the fact that they are trying to test kids for aptitude on material that they haven't been exposed to, ie the next years curriculum. I suspect that if 5th grade teachers were familiar with the test material then they might be tempted to teach to the test.
There are other ways to reach the same point (calculus in Junior year) without using this "skip a grade if you somehow can figure out how to do math that you've never been taught" methodology. (E.g., I have seen this accomplished with one or two tracks taught at an accelerated pace instead of grade skips).
I'm not sure why knowing material you've never been taught would be a qualification for calculus junior year? Deeply understanding material you have been taught, and being able to learn math relatively quickly, seems a bit more fair, less open to variability by teacher (e.g., perhaps Clinton math teachers are not covering the any of that tested material while other elementary schools have had opportunities for exposure -- providing an unrecognized advantage?).
If the test is a secret, no one has any way of knowing if the differences in scores represent a difference in exposure, or true ability to understand concepts that one has never been taught.
sprout said:There are other ways to reach the same point (calculus in Junior year) without using this "skip a grade if you somehow can figure out how to do math that you've never been taught" methodology. (E.g., I have seen this accomplished with one or two tracks taught at an accelerated pace instead of grade skips).
No doubt, but considering how "levels" or "tracks" are viewed by some, accelerated math is what it is.
sprout said:
I'm not sure why knowing material you've never been taught would be a qualification for calculus junior year?
It qualifies you to advance to the next math topic, and not repeat material you've already mastered. Calc as a junior is just a bi-product.
Hi Compmama. Did you talk with Beattys? If so, what did she say about the errors in the PT test? Also, has the district confirmed that these errors were in the test? I hadn't heard this before, and it's a pretty serious thing if true. Thanks for sharing what you learned.