Jussie Smollett - what an idiot
flimbro said:
Red_Barchetta said:And how do I control these "irrationals"? Is there a handbook, a manual, perhaps some guidelines published online? What adjustments do I need to make in my daily life to keep on the good side of these irrationals? Further, how do I control what Jussie Smollett does in Chicago so he doesn't enrage the irrationals in my NJ neighborhood, causing them to seek me out? How much work do you think I should be expected to put in to ensure that some random Black person somewhere doesn't do something to piss the irrationals off and bring harm to me?
flimbro said:I think what Smollett did was a little worse than not 'live a life above reproach' as you say.
There are systems in place to constrain the life experiences of Black folks and gay Americans. These systems don't need permission or 'examples' to exist. Bias does not require facts to flourish. When you suggest that Jussie Smollett is giving racists a reason to be racist you are essentially saying that each and every time any Black person or a gay American does anything other than live a life above reproach they are justifying their own unjust treatment as well as the group they belong to.
Is that really what you want to project?
I certainly understand your point that noone should have to live an extra careful life in order to not provoke irrationals. But that's just it, there really are irrational people out there looking for an excuse. Looking for an opportunity to say 'see, I told you', and go on to commit crimes. I think you need to be careful not to inadvertently debate as if the racists out there have the same level of consideration that the general public does. I don't think there are people out there watching someone like Robert Kraft hoping he will screw up so that they can discriminate against people like him.
Who do you adjust your life for? Who are the irrationals you're careful not to piss off?
Perhaps the problem is with the irrational folks and not with me or any other Black folks.
You're taking this to the extreme. Clearly I've pissed you off so I'll adjust my life right now.
It seems he ain't gonna be on no television no more. He has been written off the last episodes of the season.
Red_Barchetta said:
flimbro said:You're taking this to the extreme. Clearly I've pissed you off so I'll adjust my life right now.
Red_Barchetta said:And how do I control these "irrationals"? Is there a handbook, a manual, perhaps some guidelines published online? What adjustments do I need to make in my daily life to keep on the good side of these irrationals? Further, how do I control what Jussie Smollett does in Chicago so he doesn't enrage the irrationals in my NJ neighborhood, causing them to seek me out? How much work do you think I should be expected to put in to ensure that some random Black person somewhere doesn't do something to piss the irrationals off and bring harm to me?
flimbro said:I think what Smollett did was a little worse than not 'live a life above reproach' as you say.
There are systems in place to constrain the life experiences of Black folks and gay Americans. These systems don't need permission or 'examples' to exist. Bias does not require facts to flourish. When you suggest that Jussie Smollett is giving racists a reason to be racist you are essentially saying that each and every time any Black person or a gay American does anything other than live a life above reproach they are justifying their own unjust treatment as well as the group they belong to.
Is that really what you want to project?
I certainly understand your point that noone should have to live an extra careful life in order to not provoke irrationals. But that's just it, there really are irrational people out there looking for an excuse. Looking for an opportunity to say 'see, I told you', and go on to commit crimes. I think you need to be careful not to inadvertently debate as if the racists out there have the same level of consideration that the general public does. I don't think there are people out there watching someone like Robert Kraft hoping he will screw up so that they can discriminate against people like him.
Who do you adjust your life for? Who are the irrationals you're careful not to piss off?
Perhaps the problem is with the irrational folks and not with me or any other Black folks.
Feel free to adjust, but I'm not pissed at all. These are just words. I'm asking a serious question. How do Black folks or gay folks comport themselves to be palatable to racists, homophobes and white/straight folks in general? Is it in fact by living their lives above reproach? Will that guarantee safety? It's a difficult question, I know, and I really don't expect an answer.
This case isn't about race - it's about stupidity, no different than Susan Smith or Chris Watts - two other brain surgeons who committed a crime and tried to manipulate the media and public by lying on TV:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Smith
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_family_homicides
You could also draw parallels to OJ Simpson because of the "celebrity" aspect of this case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson_murder_case
FB:
I'm simply objecting to the extremity you have used in your postings here. Noone 'must' do anything. No, there is not a manual. You cannot control Smollet and noone expects you to. What I would respectfully say is that in the absence of a better method of dealing with bad actors, there are some minor things we can all do to adjust our behavior to avoid the irrational, unpredictable, dangerous, ... whatever.
I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination. This assumption may be appropriate or not; some will perceive it as putting an additional burden on a victim. Like you say it's a difficult question.
DaveSchmidt said:
Norman_Bates said:No one has to write it. The point remains: If a heterosexual white man stages an attack, does anyone wonder what damage it’ll do to the credibility of heterosexual white men who really are attacked?
There is nothing in what I wrote that serves to suggest people of color and LGBT persons must live by a different standard or that Smollett's actions somehow justify racism or homophobia.
Exactly. Are all white heterosexual males tainted by the idiocy and corruption of Donald Trump?
yahooyahoo said:
DaveSchmidt said:Exactly. Are all white heterosexual males tainted by the idiocy and corruption of Donald Trump?
Norman_Bates said:No one has to write it. The point remains: If a heterosexual white man stages an attack, does anyone wonder what damage it’ll do to the credibility of heterosexual white men who really are attacked?
There is nothing in what I wrote that serves to suggest people of color and LGBT persons must live by a different standard or that Smollett's actions somehow justify racism or homophobia.
only the ones wearing MAGA hats
Red_Barchetta said:
FB:
I'm simply objecting to the extremity you have used in your postings here. Noone 'must' do anything. No, there is not a manual. You cannot control Smollet and noone expects you to. What I would respectfully say is that in the absence of a better method of dealing with bad actors, there are some minor things we can all do to adjust our behavior to avoid the irrational, unpredictable, dangerous, ... whatever.
I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination. This assumption may be appropriate or not; some will perceive it as putting an additional burden on a victim. Like you say it's a difficult question.
I just figured out I was 'FB'
Here's where you'll always lose me:
"I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination."
To my ears this sound like this "If only the Blacks would learn not to do bad things they wouldn't have to suffer from the racism, oh well".
Hope that wasn't too extreme for you.
flimbro said:
Red_Barchetta said:I just figured out I was 'FB'
FB:
I'm simply objecting to the extremity you have used in your postings here. Noone 'must' do anything. No, there is not a manual. You cannot control Smollet and noone expects you to. What I would respectfully say is that in the absence of a better method of dealing with bad actors, there are some minor things we can all do to adjust our behavior to avoid the irrational, unpredictable, dangerous, ... whatever.
I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination. This assumption may be appropriate or not; some will perceive it as putting an additional burden on a victim. Like you say it's a difficult question.
Here's where you'll always lose me:
"I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination."
To my ears this sound like this "If only the Blacks would learn not to do bad things they wouldn't have to suffer from the racism, oh well".
Hope that wasn't too extreme for you.
To my ears your interpretation of my statement is something that would be said by a racist person, and that I am therefore racist. That's disappointing but you're entitled to your opinion.
I don't care that he committed a crime that wasted a bunch of cops' time. I'm more bothered that the manner of crime he committed; that he used his race and orientation in an effort to benefit himself, has a possibility of inspiring more discrimination against people like him. You are free to find racism in this statement as your experience dictates.
flimbro said:
conandrob240 said:
how can you say only he was hurt? That’s silly. There was a financial and resources “hurt” while a police force ran around investigating this bs. There is a “hurt” to real victims of racism and homophobia as this may make their stories questioned and not believed.Norman_Bates said:The 'hurt to real victims of racism and homophobia' is actual ongoing and persistent racism and homophobia. 'Real victims' stories are already 'questioned and not believed'- know why... Racism and Homophobia. See how that works?
erins said:Others affected include the next victims of real racial harassment and violence or homophobia whose reports may be doubted just a little bit more as a function of comparisons to this stunt. It doesn't take a lot to affirm the suspicions of those who may already be predisposed to question/doubt stories of racial or other forms of discrimination so an event of this nature allows them to use this situation to justify those doubts. Certainly, that existing prejudice also speaks to their character but Smollett’s actions served to reinforced those qualities. Finally, Mr. Smollett offensively co-opted the pain of those who have suffered racism or homophobia and the outrage of those who oppose Trump (the MAGA reference in his faked note) to attempt to leverage a salary increase for himself......The only person who got hurt by Jussie's actions is Jussie. Unlike the white woman who lied on Emmett Till. Or the countless other times lies were used to justify imprisoning/killing/torturing black people.
There are systems in place to constrain the life experiences of Black folks and gay Americans. These systems don't need permission or 'examples' to exist. Bias does not require facts to flourish. When you suggest that Jussie Smollett is giving racists a reason to be racist you are essentially saying that each and every time any Black person or a gay American does anything other than live a life above reproach they are justifying their own unjust treatment as well as the group they belong to.
Is that really what you want to project?
Do you really believe that each and every Black and brown person must be held to a different standard than the rest of the country/ the world? Do gay Americans have to meet and maintain a standard of personal divinity that you don't? That your neighbors don't? And why do you get to decide what the standards are or what the default is? What kind of thinking does that sound like to you?
Smollett made a mistake, it was stupid, he was wrong. He is a human and therefore flawed, just like the rest of us. His actions shouldn't incriminate anyone other than Jussie Smollett.
Whoa! Slow your roll. I NEVER said or even THOUGHT that Jussie had to be held to a higher standard. ANYONE who cries wolf like this is an *******. A selfish, stupid, little person. Could have been a Black guy, White guy, gay, straight- doesn’t matter. The fact is he acted like a spoiled brat, wasted the resources of the police, and possibly made true victims’ stories less believable. He could have been a white woman crying rape, a white child making up bullying or a boy pretending a wolf was invading the village. Doesn’t make any difference. You make up a crime like this to further your own interests, you’re a dick. I have no idea where you got all the other “interpretations” of my anger around this from.
That being said, I am not suggesting the death penalty here for crying out loud. He should lose his job (since this whole thing seems to have been his bargaining tool), he should pay a fine plus any expenses the police put into investigating this. And since he seems like a big spoiled brat, a few weeks in jail might knock him down a few pegs.
Red_Barchetta said:
flimbro said:To my ears your interpretation of my statement is something that would be said by a racist person, and that I am therefore racist. That's disappointing but you're entitled to your opinion.
Red_Barchetta said:I just figured out I was 'FB'
FB:
I'm simply objecting to the extremity you have used in your postings here. Noone 'must' do anything. No, there is not a manual. You cannot control Smollet and noone expects you to. What I would respectfully say is that in the absence of a better method of dealing with bad actors, there are some minor things we can all do to adjust our behavior to avoid the irrational, unpredictable, dangerous, ... whatever.
I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination. This assumption may be appropriate or not; some will perceive it as putting an additional burden on a victim. Like you say it's a difficult question.
Here's where you'll always lose me:
"I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination."
To my ears this sound like this "If only the Blacks would learn not to do bad things they wouldn't have to suffer from the racism, oh well".
Hope that wasn't too extreme for you.
I don't care that he committed a crime that wasted a bunch of cops' time. I'm more bothered that the manner of crime he committed; that he used his race and orientation in an effort to benefit himself, has a possibility of inspiring more discrimination against people like him. You are free to find racism in this statement as your experience dictates.
(Warning: This may just dip into the extreme so hold tight to your pearls)
You can call it whatever you'd like, and phrase it however you'd like- you're still saying the same thing.
Like many, you're hung up on the idea that negative actions by a Black person will 'inspire' MORE discrimination. This belief suggests that in part, racism manifests or becomes amplified when Black folks do something objectionable or don't do what is expected of them by white people.
This is bullshyte.
For example- talking about racism doesn't create racism. Taking a knee to protest racism doesn't create racism. Robbing a bank while Black doesn't create racism. Using drugs while Black doesn't create racism. Saying your life matters doesn't create racism. Nothing Black or brown people do creates or invites racism. Some white folks advance the idea that it does because collectively they/we do not have the moral courage or the self awareness to address the real root, origin and American insistence on maintaining racism.
Apparently the same holds true for homophobia. Bad behavior on the part of gay people will invite/create/stir up/foster homophobia. More bullshyte.
Along with being remarkably ignorant and inevitably cowardly, these ideas (even when they are disguised as helpful warnings and gentle admonishments like you do) put the onus on the victims of racism and homophobia instead of the practitioners and beneficiaries- where it belongs.
And for what it's worth, the suggestion that one random Black person acting irresponsibly can affect the lives of millions of Black people is pretty much textbook racism.
I think you are wildly off-base. I did not in ANY way say or suggest (or even entertain the thought, to be honest), that this would spread more racism. I did say that when a person fakes something, it may make it harder for the next person to be believed when that something happens to them. Tale as old as time- as simple as “the boy who cried wolf”.
And, no, sorry I was not suggesting the actions of one Black man affect the whole race. I was suggesting that the actions of one PERSON in high profile like this can have a ripple effect where future victims are less likely to come forward or be believed. Just like when a true victim in a high profile position comes forward, it spurs others to come forward or be believed. For example, a famous person talking about mental illness or sexual assault usually results in more people feeling comfortable coming forward. It’s logical this could also work in reverse. It’s really not at all about race.
The driver of the #metoo movement is the comfort of coming forward and being believed. No one is going back in hiding as long as victims show courage and continue to speak up. The actions of one person will not stop a movement, however I think it’s safe to say that the person in this case availed himself of riding a wave for his own strange purposes.
conandrob240 said:
There is a “hurt” to real victims of racism and homophobia as this may make their stories questioned and not believed.
I responded to two posts, yours was the one copied above.
And this is the portion of my response directed to you regarding what you’d written:
The ‘hurt to real victims of racism and homophobia’ is actual ongoing and persistent racism and homophobia. ‘Real victims’ stories are already questioned and not believed’ - know why... Racism and Homophobia. See how that works?
Apologies for the confusion, I should have responded separately. Hopefully this clears some things up.
conandrob240 said:
I think you are wildly off-base. I did not in ANY way say or suggest (or even entertain the thought, to be honest), that this would spread more racism. I did say that when a person fakes something, it may make it harder for the next person to be believed when that something happens to them. Tale as old as time- as simple as “the boy who cried wolf”.
For the record, knowing what we know now, I think it would be fitting if Smollett, who I’m assuming plays the role of the shepherd in your reworked fable, is ignored by the townsfolk from here on out.
However, I do not think it is wise, equitable or prudent for the townsfolk to ignore the other shepherds when they cry wolf, simply because they resemble Shepherd Smollett.
who the hell said it would be wise, equitable or prudent? Of course, the next wolf that shows up shouldn’t be ignored. Duh. Only said that it might be possible it would be ignored since the “false wolf” was cried.
terp said:
To be fair, it's not like Jussie was the first.
That’s dumb. Of course he’s not the first. Does that make it okay?
The villagers went out of their way to look past a transgression. They ran to the shepherd boy the second time he cried “Wolf!” too.
I hope that’s exactly right. At least the part about running to future victims and not letting the first false cry impact future response. As for the “weakness”, if this is more sympathy and understanding for Smollett, I call bs. He’s an *** and should be treated as such. He hasn’t asked for forgiveness, he hasn’t expressed remorse. Let’s wait for that before we toss this up to “poor Jussie made a mistake” rather than an indication of his character.
terp said:
To be fair, it's not like Jussie was the first.
wow. what kind of person would spend their time tallying fake hate crimes? and to what purpose?
conandrob240 said:
As for the “weakness”, if this is more sympathy and understanding for Smollett, I call bs.
Realizing post hoc that the word might not be taken in the intended spirit, I replaced “weakness” before your comment appeared. I can only ask for your forgiveness.
flimbro said:
Red_Barchetta said:(Warning: This may just dip into the extreme so hold tight to your pearls)
flimbro said:To my ears your interpretation of my statement is something that would be said by a racist person, and that I am therefore racist. That's disappointing but you're entitled to your opinion.
Red_Barchetta said:I just figured out I was 'FB'
FB:
I'm simply objecting to the extremity you have used in your postings here. Noone 'must' do anything. No, there is not a manual. You cannot control Smollet and noone expects you to. What I would respectfully say is that in the absence of a better method of dealing with bad actors, there are some minor things we can all do to adjust our behavior to avoid the irrational, unpredictable, dangerous, ... whatever.
I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination. This assumption may be appropriate or not; some will perceive it as putting an additional burden on a victim. Like you say it's a difficult question.
Here's where you'll always lose me:
"I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination."
To my ears this sound like this "If only the Blacks would learn not to do bad things they wouldn't have to suffer from the racism, oh well".
Hope that wasn't too extreme for you.
I don't care that he committed a crime that wasted a bunch of cops' time. I'm more bothered that the manner of crime he committed; that he used his race and orientation in an effort to benefit himself, has a possibility of inspiring more discrimination against people like him. You are free to find racism in this statement as your experience dictates.
You can call it whatever you'd like, and phrase it however you'd like- you're still saying the same thing.
Like many, you're hung up on the idea that negative actions by a Black person will 'inspire' MORE discrimination. This belief suggests that in part, racism manifests or becomes amplified when Black folks do something objectionable or don't do what is expected of them by white people.
This is bullshyte.
For example- talking about racism doesn't create racism. Taking a knee to protest racism doesn't create racism. Robbing a bank while Black doesn't create racism. Using drugs while Black doesn't create racism. Saying your life matters doesn't create racism. Nothing Black or brown people do creates or invites racism. Some white folks advance the idea that it does because collectively they/we do not have the moral courage or the self awareness to address the real root, origin and American insistence on maintaining racism.
Apparently the same holds true for homophobia. Bad behavior on the part of gay people will invite/create/stir up/foster homophobia. More bullshyte.
Along with being remarkably ignorant and inevitably cowardly, these ideas (even when they are disguised as helpful warnings and gentle admonishments like you do) put the onus on the victims of racism and homophobia instead of the practitioners and beneficiaries- where it belongs.
And for what it's worth, the suggestion that one random Black person acting irresponsibly can affect the lives of millions of Black people is pretty much textbook racism.
Fair enough, message received. I’ll take my racism-masked-as white-guy-concern-for-those-discriminated-against and sit down and shut up.
Red_Barchetta said:
flimbro said:Fair enough, message received. I’ll take my racism-masked-as white-guy-concern-for-those-discriminated-against and sit down and shut up.
Red_Barchetta said:(Warning: This may just dip into the extreme so hold tight to your pearls)
flimbro said:To my ears your interpretation of my statement is something that would be said by a racist person, and that I am therefore racist. That's disappointing but you're entitled to your opinion.
Red_Barchetta said:I just figured out I was 'FB'
FB:
I'm simply objecting to the extremity you have used in your postings here. Noone 'must' do anything. No, there is not a manual. You cannot control Smollet and noone expects you to. What I would respectfully say is that in the absence of a better method of dealing with bad actors, there are some minor things we can all do to adjust our behavior to avoid the irrational, unpredictable, dangerous, ... whatever.
I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination. This assumption may be appropriate or not; some will perceive it as putting an additional burden on a victim. Like you say it's a difficult question.
Here's where you'll always lose me:
"I think that for better or worse some of us assume a person like Smollet who has presumably suffered discrimination due to his race and orientation would be less likely to act in a manner that might inspire more of the same discrimination."
To my ears this sound like this "If only the Blacks would learn not to do bad things they wouldn't have to suffer from the racism, oh well".
Hope that wasn't too extreme for you.
I don't care that he committed a crime that wasted a bunch of cops' time. I'm more bothered that the manner of crime he committed; that he used his race and orientation in an effort to benefit himself, has a possibility of inspiring more discrimination against people like him. You are free to find racism in this statement as your experience dictates.
You can call it whatever you'd like, and phrase it however you'd like- you're still saying the same thing.
Like many, you're hung up on the idea that negative actions by a Black person will 'inspire' MORE discrimination. This belief suggests that in part, racism manifests or becomes amplified when Black folks do something objectionable or don't do what is expected of them by white people.
This is bullshyte.
For example- talking about racism doesn't create racism. Taking a knee to protest racism doesn't create racism. Robbing a bank while Black doesn't create racism. Using drugs while Black doesn't create racism. Saying your life matters doesn't create racism. Nothing Black or brown people do creates or invites racism. Some white folks advance the idea that it does because collectively they/we do not have the moral courage or the self awareness to address the real root, origin and American insistence on maintaining racism.
Apparently the same holds true for homophobia. Bad behavior on the part of gay people will invite/create/stir up/foster homophobia. More bullshyte.
Along with being remarkably ignorant and inevitably cowardly, these ideas (even when they are disguised as helpful warnings and gentle admonishments like you do) put the onus on the victims of racism and homophobia instead of the practitioners and beneficiaries- where it belongs.
And for what it's worth, the suggestion that one random Black person acting irresponsibly can affect the lives of millions of Black people is pretty much textbook racism.
I know you wrote that flippantly, but the issue is real for us white folks. While intellectually we know all about racism and what we should do to avoid it, the mind is a strange thing, of which we don't have total control. And if someone is rationally telling you that maybe what you're saying is more racist that you want to admit, you should probably take some time and examine it.
I've had to do that quite a few times here at MOL. Fighting racism as a white person presents its own set of personal challenges.
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DaveSchmidt said:
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I would amend that statement. Titania is one of the funniest trolls on twitter. To wit:
And how do I control these "irrationals"? Is there a handbook, a manual, perhaps some guidelines published online? What adjustments do I need to make in my daily life to keep on the good side of these irrationals? Further, how do I control what Jussie Smollett does in Chicago so he doesn't enrage the irrationals in my NJ neighborhood, causing them to seek me out? How much work do you think I should be expected to put in to ensure that some random Black person somewhere doesn't do something to piss the irrationals off and bring harm to me?
Who do you adjust your life for? Who are the irrationals you're careful not to piss off?
Perhaps the problem is with the irrational folks and not with me or any other Black folks.