Jussie Smollett - what an idiot

flimbro said:

....

He did not ‘embarass’ Chicago or make a mockery of the Chicago PD. Chicago has done far worse to its citizens- particularly the Black, brown and poor citizens for decades. The Chicago PD has long been plagued with officers who lie, cheat, steal from and murder the citizens they’re paid to protect. ....

 From Haymarket Square to Chicago 8 to Fred Hampton, the Chicago police have done enough to discredit themselves.

erins said:

.....The only person who got hurt by Jussie's actions is Jussie.  Unlike the white woman who lied on Emmett Till.  Or the countless other times lies were used to justify imprisoning/killing/torturing black people.  

     Perhaps there are other victims.  According to the Chicago Police Superintendent Eddie T. Johnson, the others potentially hurt by Smollett's selfish (that word assumes the reports that it was in reaction to disgruntlement over salary) actions are real crime victims…those whose cases were diminished by the draining of resources that could otherwise “have been used to investigate other crimes for which people were actually suffering.”    Others affected include the next victims of real racial harassment and violence or homophobia whose reports may be doubted just a little bit more as a function of comparisons to this stunt.  It doesn't take a lot to affirm the suspicions of those who may already be predisposed to question/doubt stories of racial or other forms of discrimination so an event of this nature allows them to use this situation to justify those doubts.  Certainly, that existing prejudice also speaks to their character but Smollett’s actions served to reinforced those qualities.  Finally, Mr. Smollett offensively co-opted the pain of those who have suffered racism or homophobia and the outrage of those who oppose Trump (the MAGA reference in his faked note) to attempt to leverage a salary increase for himself.   

      Smollett was correct that our insipid media would zoom on in this story.  As Superintendent Johnson noted in frustration, “I just wish that the families of gun violence in this city got this much attention”

     Smollett, of course, deserves his day in court. But, according to the story in the NY Times, the evidence is mounting  and damning (text messages from Smollett to the brothers orchestrating the “attack”, checks to the brothers, phone calls to them from Smollett’s cell immediately prior to and after the alleged assault).   However, an incalcitrant Smollett seems to be “doubling down” and attempting to shift the responsibility to the brothers.  (Gee..sounds as though he and Trump have read the same "how to respond" manual)   It will be interesting to see how the case goes.  Frankly, if he is found guilty, I don’t think it warrants jail time.   I’d much rather he be assigned to use his talents to work with real victims of racism and homophobia to create works that educate others,  especially those whose prejudices were reinforced by this ridiculous stunt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/21/arts/television/jussie-smollett-arrest-salary-letter.html

sprout said:

lord_pabulum said:

This is perpetuated by many journalists and main stream media - they no longer wait for facts or sit back and reflect.  

It appears to be a downside to this age of mass instant access to information. If media outlets and reporters decide to wait for more facts, they will be 'scooped' by Twitter/social media and less rigorous media outlets on a regular basis. 
Even if media outlets and journalists slow down publication to wait for more information, I'm not sure there is any way to slow down the high-intensity commentary that streams out from the court of public opinion, which then seems to demand a spotlight. 

 Yes indeed.  Unfortunately many people who consume the 'scoops', assume the truth.  Think about how many people assume the opinions on the cable news networks are facts.

Before this incident, I had never heard of the guy. Looks like $3,500 bought him recognition (and a mug shot...and likely jail time)

mayhewdrive said:
Before this incident, I had never heard of the guy. Looks like $3,500 bought him recognition (and a mug shot...and likely jail time)

 Well, lots of people had heard of him. Guess they are not in the circles in which you travel. 

That being said, he's a jerk.  

how can you say only he was hurt? That’s silly. There was a financial and resources “hurt” while a police force ran around investigating this bs. There is a “hurt” to real victims of racism and homophobia as this may make their stories questioned and not believed. 

Exactly. And last night he supposedly met with his cast mates and restated his innocence. Magical thinking at work in his mind without regard for others.

I wonder what his reaction would have been if CPD had wrongly charged someone for the fictitious assault.

Clearly he didn't think through his plan.

conandrob240 said:
how can you say only he was hurt? That’s silly. There was a financial and resources “hurt” while a police force ran around investigating this bs. There is a “hurt” to real victims of racism and homophobia as this may make their stories questioned and not believed. 

Norman_Bates said:

erins said:

.....The only person who got hurt by Jussie's actions is Jussie.  Unlike the white woman who lied on Emmett Till.  Or the countless other times lies were used to justify imprisoning/killing/torturing black people.   

  Others affected include the next victims of real racial harassment and violence or homophobia whose reports may be doubted just a little bit more as a function of comparisons to this stunt.  It doesn't take a lot to affirm the suspicions of those who may already be predisposed to question/doubt stories of racial or other forms of discrimination so an event of this nature allows them to use this situation to justify those doubts.  Certainly, that existing prejudice also speaks to their character but Smollett’s actions served to reinforced those qualities.  Finally, Mr. Smollett offensively co-opted the pain of those who have suffered racism or homophobia and the outrage of those who oppose Trump (the MAGA reference in his faked note) to attempt to leverage a salary increase for himself.  

The 'hurt to real victims of racism and homophobia' is actual ongoing and persistent racism and homophobia. 'Real victims' stories are already 'questioned and not believed'- know why... Racism and Homophobia.  See how that works?

There are systems in place to constrain the life experiences of Black folks and gay Americans.  These systems don't need permission or 'examples' to exist. Bias does not require facts to flourish. When you suggest that Jussie Smollett is giving racists a reason to be racist you are essentially saying that each and every time any Black person or a gay American does anything other than live a life above reproach they are justifying their own unjust treatment as well as the group they belong to.  

Is that really what you want to project?  

Do you really believe that each and every Black and brown person must be held to a different standard than the rest of the country/ the world?  Do gay Americans have to meet and maintain a standard of personal divinity that you don't?  That your neighbors don't?  And why do you get to decide what the standards are or what the default is?  What kind of thinking does that sound like to you?

Smollett made a mistake, it was stupid, he was wrong. He is a human and therefore flawed, just like the rest of us. His actions shouldn't incriminate anyone other than Jussie Smollett.  

Meanwhile, a white terrorist military officer with an entire arsenal gets caught planning a mass attack but this thread has 40+ comments and radio silence on that.  smh.  

flimbro said:
Is that really what you want to project?  
Do you really believe that each and every Black and brown person must be held to a different standard than the rest of the country/ the world?  Do gay Americans have to meet and maintain a standard of personal divinity that you don't?  That your neighbors don't?  And why do you get to decide what the standards are or what the default is?  What kind of thinking does that sound like to you?

Na. I think all we ask is that when you want a raise simply ask for it.  Don't stage a false attack.  

I hold that standard to all people, not based on race or sexual persuasion. 

max_weisenfeld said:
Meanwhile, a white terrorist military officer with an entire arsenal gets caught planning a mass attack but this thread has 40+ comments and radio silence on that.  smh.  

This!

No excuse whatsoever for Smollett, but WAY too much focus when there are for worse and more important issues to be reckoned with.

sac said:

max_weisenfeld said:
Meanwhile, a white terrorist military officer with an entire arsenal gets caught planning a mass attack but this thread has 40+ comments and radio silence on that.  smh.  

This!
No excuse whatsoever for Smollett, but WAY too much focus when there are for worse and more important issues to be reckoned with.

 I don't remember this sentiment about the Smollett affair before we knew it was a hoax. 

I don't think there was any discussion of it here at all. 

I just love the "what-about-ism".  This is a thread about a "celebrity" who tried to increase his salary and fame by inciting racist and homophobic anger and implicating 2 innocent people in a crime..and then lying about it multiple times on national TV.  It's a fascinating story...but when you review the evidence, it was a "hoax" that was based on stupidity and incompetence (writing a check, calling the attackers directly, etc), yet the media and other so-called "celebrities" bought the story from the beginning and are now back-pedaling.

The stupidity is staggering.

It has nothing to do with any other crimes in the news, which are certainly free to be discussed elsewhere.

it's not "what aboutism."  It's more that you aren't convincing very many people that the story is as important as you think it is.

Some presidential candidates got caught in the crossfire. Are they now subject to accusations of gullibility? Support was quick and strong from all sectors. Personally I thought it was a weird story from the beginning, as did anyone else with an ounce of street smarts.

max_weisenfeld said:
Meanwhile, a white terrorist military officer with an entire arsenal gets caught planning a mass attack but this thread has 40+ comments and radio silence on that.  smh.  

And along the lines of sprout’s earlier comment, the MSM could give five minutes to Smollett and devote a prime-time special or entire home page to Hasson and we’d still be here.

mayhewdrive said:
Are you kidding?  The guy tried to spark a race war so he could get a raise. According to the early reports he paid his “attackers” by check and called them before and after the attack, then refused to turn over his cell phone. He went on National TV fabricating a complete hoax.  He’s an idiot and should spend a really long time in prison.  

What white nationalists did in Charlottesville is trying to spark a race war.

What this guy did was incredibly stupid and illegal but let's not characterize it with hyperbole.

flimbro said:

conandrob240 said:
how can you say only he was hurt? That’s silly. There was a financial and resources “hurt” while a police force ran around investigating this bs. There is a “hurt” to real victims of racism and homophobia as this may make their stories questioned and not believed. 

Norman_Bates said:

erins said:

.....The only person who got hurt by Jussie's actions is Jussie.  Unlike the white woman who lied on Emmett Till.  Or the countless other times lies were used to justify imprisoning/killing/torturing black people.   

  Others affected include the next victims of real racial harassment and violence or homophobia whose reports may be doubted just a little bit more as a function of comparisons to this stunt.  It doesn't take a lot to affirm the suspicions of those who may already be predisposed to question/doubt stories of racial or other forms of discrimination so an event of this nature allows them to use this situation to justify those doubts.  Certainly, that existing prejudice also speaks to their character but Smollett’s actions served to reinforced those qualities.  Finally, Mr. Smollett offensively co-opted the pain of those who have suffered racism or homophobia and the outrage of those who oppose Trump (the MAGA reference in his faked note) to attempt to leverage a salary increase for himself.  

The 'hurt to real victims of racism and homophobia' is actual ongoing and persistent racism and homophobia. 'Real victims' stories are already 'questioned and not believed'- know why... Racism and Homophobia.  See how that works?
There are systems in place to constrain the life experiences of Black folks and gay Americans.  These systems don't need permission or 'examples' to exist. Bias does not require facts to flourish. When you suggest that Jussie Smollett is giving racists a reason to be racist you are essentially saying that each and every time any Black person or a gay American does anything other than live a life above reproach they are justifying their own unjust treatment as well as the group they belong to.  
Is that really what you want to project?  
Do you really believe that each and every Black and brown person must be held to a different standard than the rest of the country/ the world?  Do gay Americans have to meet and maintain a standard of personal divinity that you don't?  That your neighbors don't?  And why do you get to decide what the standards are or what the default is?  What kind of thinking does that sound like to you?
Smollett made a mistake, it was stupid, he was wrong. He is a human and therefore flawed, just like the rest of us. His actions shouldn't incriminate anyone other than Jussie Smollett.  

Your interpretations of what I wrote/meant and what may be my underlying motivations are incorrect and, I have to assume, are a projection of your own innate biases.  There is nothing in what I wrote that serves to suggest people of color and LGBT persons must live by a different standard or that Smollett's actions somehow justify racism or homophobia.  Nor is there anything that asserts that racism and homophobia are not ongoing nor social conditions that require attention.   We each are entitled to our own unique interpretation of the Smollett incident. We may agree on some aspects and disagree on others.   To suggest that the situation has no impact or effect  on anyone other than himself is, in my opinion, not the case.  I believe his actions did have an impact on others.  However,  I very much respect your right to feel otherwise.  But, please do not attempt to apply unjustified conclusions as to what I meant to serve your own agenda.

Norman_Bates said:

There is nothing in what I wrote that serves to suggest people of color and LGBT persons must live by a different standard or that Smollett's actions somehow justify racism or homophobia.  

No one has to write it. The point remains: If a heterosexual white man stages an attack, does anyone wonder what damage it’ll do to the credibility of heterosexual white men who really are attacked?

Norman_Bates said:

flimbro said:

  Others affected include the next victims of real racial harassment and violence or homophobia whose reports may be doubted just a little bit more as a function of comparisons to this stunt.  It doesn't take a lot to affirm the suspicions of those who may already be predisposed to question/doubt stories of racial or other forms of discrimination so an event of this nature allows them to use this situation to justify those doubts.  Certainly, that existing prejudice also speaks to their character but Smollett’s actions served to reinforced those qualities. 

The 'hurt to real victims of racism and homophobia' is actual ongoing and persistent racism and homophobia. 'Real victims' stories are already 'questioned and not believed'- know why... Racism and Homophobia.  See how that works?
There are systems in place to constrain the life experiences of Black folks and gay Americans.  These systems don't need permission or 'examples' to exist. Bias does not require facts to flourish. When you suggest that Jussie Smollett is giving racists a reason to be racist you are essentially saying that each and every time any Black person or a gay American does anything other than live a life above reproach they are justifying their own unjust treatment as well as the group they belong to.  
Is that really what you want to project?  
Do you really believe that each and every Black and brown person must be held to a different standard than the rest of the country/ the world?  Do gay Americans have to meet and maintain a standard of personal divinity that you don't?  That your neighbors don't?  And why do you get to decide what the standards are or what the default is?  What kind of thinking does that sound like to you?
Smollett made a mistake, it was stupid, he was wrong. He is a human and therefore flawed, just like the rest of us. His actions shouldn't incriminate anyone other than Jussie Smollett.  

Your interpretations of what I wrote/meant and what may be my underlying motivations are incorrect and, I have to assume, are a projection of your own innate biases.  There is nothing in what I wrote that serves to suggest people of color and LGBT persons must live by a different standard or that Smollett's actions somehow justify racism or homophobia.  Nor is there anything that asserts that racism and homophobia are not ongoing nor social conditions that require attention.   We each are entitled to our own unique interpretation of the Smollett incident. We may agree on some aspects and disagree on others.   To suggest that the situation has no impact or effect  on anyone other than himself is, in my opinion, not the case.  I believe his actions did have an impact on others.  However,  I very much respect your right to feel otherwise.  But, please do not attempt to apply unjustified conclusions as to what I meant to serve your own agenda.

Two quick points:

1. While you may not have intended to suggest that Black people and LGBT persons must live by a different standard and that Smollett's actions justify racism or homophobia, you did write "Smollett's actions served to reinforce(d) those qualities".  Smollett is Black and gay and his actions according to you, reinforce prejudice.   You're not alone in this- so don't take it personally. I responded to what you and others wrote about the effect of what one man's actions have to do with me and people that look like me. That's my agenda.

2. What @DaveSchmidt said 

DaveSchmidt said:

Norman_Bates said:

There is nothing in what I wrote that serves to suggest people of color and LGBT persons must live by a different standard or that Smollett's actions somehow justify racism or homophobia.  

No one has to write it. The point remains: If a heterosexual white man stages an attack, does anyone wonder what damage it’ll do to the credibility of heterosexual white men who really are attacked?

So, is it your belief that Smollett's actions (assuming the outcome is that it was fabricated) had no impact beyond his personal career and legal status?  If you do, that is perfectly fine, but when I consider the vast amount of media attention the matter has garnered, the resources of the Chicago Police that were diverted from other crimes to the investigation, and how I believe Smollett co-opted the real lived experiences of people who have been victims of racism and homophobia for his personal advantage, I come to the conclusion that others were impacted.  I assume that the reason Smollett may have elected to utilize MAGA, racism, and homophobia in concocting a hoax (again, I do realize that we have to see if that is the final conclusion) is because those are real societal issues that he felt would garner him support/sympathy in his effort to generate publicity as  a victim.  Cognitive psychologists recognize that it is difficult to change extant beliefs because even the smallest things that affirm our preconceptions have enormous power while exceptions may be disregarded as flukes or "one offs".  That is why stereotypes are so difficult to erase...all it takes is one small thing that endorses the stereotype and it becomes even more entrenched.

All I was attempting to say (but apparently failed to do so in a cogent manner) was that, if it does turn out to be a  hoax, it absolutely will be used by those who already harbor racist and homophobic attitudes as evidence of the validity of their beliefs and harden their positions.  That is a very real and established psychological dynamic, not some errant contention among MOL posters.  As I thought I wrote, that is a function of the poor character of such people, not a statement that people of color and LGBT persons should be held to a different standard. Apparently I failed to communicate that adequately.

Norman_Bates said:

So, is it your belief that Smollett's actions (assuming the outcome is that it was fabricated) had no impact beyond his personal career and legal status?   

No. But that’s on us, not him.

There are swaths of LBGTQ / Black / mixed race people who may be embarrassed and/or angered by the actions of this individual, while at the same time understanding that it’s not reflective of how their own group thinks or behaves.It’s like the reverse of feeling group pride in the public accomplishment of a person representing your specific group. It’s human nature. 

Personally I find the argument that the Chicago police were significantly deterred from investigating other crimes because they were investigating this one is pretty ludicrous. It's just grasping at straws.

The CPD has 12000 police officers. If their ability to protect the public can be thrown off by one case, they are a sorry organization.

Nobody likes a wild goose chase.

flimbro said:

conandrob240 said:

Norman_Bates said:

erins said:

   

 

There are systems in place to constrain the life experiences of Black folks and gay Americans.  These systems don't need permission or 'examples' to exist. Bias does not require facts to flourish. When you suggest that Jussie Smollett is giving racists a reason to be racist you are essentially saying that each and every time any Black person or a gay American does anything other than live a life above reproach they are justifying their own unjust treatment as well as the group they belong to.  
Is that really what you want to project?  

I think what Smollett did was a little worse than not 'live a life above reproach' as you say.  

I certainly understand your point that noone should have to live an extra careful life in order to not provoke irrationals.  But that's just it, there really are irrational people out there looking for an excuse.  Looking for an opportunity to say 'see, I told you', and go on to commit crimes.    I think you need to be careful not to inadvertently debate as if the racists out there have the same level of consideration that the general public does.  I don't think there are people out there watching someone like Robert Kraft hoping he will screw up so that they can discriminate against people like him.    

DaveSchmidt said:

Norman_Bates said:

There is nothing in what I wrote that serves to suggest people of color and LGBT persons must live by a different standard or that Smollett's actions somehow justify racism or homophobia.  

No one has to write it. The point remains: If a heterosexual white man stages an attack, does anyone wonder what damage it’ll do to the credibility of heterosexual white men who really are attacked?

 Maybe not.  At the same time, the attack itself is unlikely to get the attention that this one did in the first place. 

Red_Barchetta said:

flimbro said:

conandrob240 said:

Norman_Bates said:

erins said:

   

 

There are systems in place to constrain the life experiences of Black folks and gay Americans.  These systems don't need permission or 'examples' to exist. Bias does not require facts to flourish. When you suggest that Jussie Smollett is giving racists a reason to be racist you are essentially saying that each and every time any Black person or a gay American does anything other than live a life above reproach they are justifying their own unjust treatment as well as the group they belong to.  
Is that really what you want to project?  

I think what Smollett did was a little worse than not 'live a life above reproach' as you say.  


I certainly understand your point that noone should have to live an extra careful life in order to not provoke irrationals.  But that's just it, there really are irrational people out there looking for an excuse.  Looking for an opportunity to say 'see, I told you', and go on to commit crimes.    I think you need to be careful not to inadvertently debate as if the racists out there have the same level of consideration that the general public does.  I don't think there are people out there watching someone like Robert Kraft hoping he will screw up so that they can discriminate against people like him.    

 People like Trump or Patriots fans? You gotta be kidding! I live to watch them screw up!