Jefferson and Maplewood Avenue

You just can’t have two roadways intersecting and one direction is not allowed to stop….then we might have multiple threads on MOL with varying degrees of animosity towards the town….. unless we put up a wall on Walton or one of those gates over by the border with Newark. 

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

Who says its gotta be 4 way?

The purpose of the 4-way is to reduce the hazard, one block below. Cars that are heading towards Ridgeway are moving away from the hazard. Having them stop at a second stop sign, does nothing to reduce the hazard.

The purpose of the stops at Jeff and Walton is to facilitate compliance at Jeff/Maplewood. I support that. A stop sign at the intersection towards Ridgeway, doesn't nothing to support compliance at the hazardous stop signs. It is silly.

Where is "Ridgeway" and what does that have to do with the discussion?   The problem with a three way stop where four streets carrying traffic intersect is that the traffic on the street without a stop sign keeps moving while traffic on the other three is alternating passage through the intersection.  Wouldn't a three way stop in this instance cause more accidents not fewer? Even if you could argue successfully that the traffic on the fourth street is moving away from trouble, the entire intersection is the problem and a four way stop would be a better way of ensuring safety for all motorists and pedestrians passing through the intersection.

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

The purpose of the 4-way is to reduce the hazard, one block below. Cars that are heading towards Ridgeway are moving away from the hazard. Having them stop at a second stop sign, does nothing to reduce the hazard.

The purpose of the stops at Jeff and Walton is to facilitate compliance at Jeff/Maplewood. I support that. A stop sign at the intersection towards Ridgeway, doesn't nothing to support compliance at the hazardous stop signs. It is silly.

A vehicle on Walton can see the stop sign on Jefferson going toward Maplewood Avenue.  Since 3-way stops like you propose do not exist, or at least are exceedingly uncommon, they’re going to assume that there is a similar stop sign coming up Jefferson from Maplewood Avenue, pull out and be t-boned by a car speeding towards them.

Yeah…the car speeding away from the danger is actually the most dangerous occupant on that roadway…

Jaytee said:

Yeah…the car speeding away from the danger is actually the most dangerous occupant on that roadway…

Not sure of the tone there. Do you disagree that a 3-way stop is confusing? Change my choice of words from “speeding” to “driving” if you like.

jimmurphy said:

Not sure of the tone there. Do you disagree that a 3-way stop is confusing? Change my choice of words from “speeding” to “driving” if you like.

“driving” away from danger doesn’t sound too exciting….of course I disagree with three stop signs at a four way intersection. 

DanDietrich said:

Apollo_T said:

How about a full fledged traffic light?

lets give this a chance.  Stoplights are over a Million to install

It took you 19 minutes to post this amount.  Please show us where you got this number?  and its relevance to this discussion.

Thanks

From the discussions about stoplights in South Orange over the years.  We technically don't have any.  They are county owned.  When they are discussed at engineering meetings the number quickly heads north.  Bringing in power, communication, etc adds up quickly. 

Traffic lights total costs in New Jersey are anywhere between 200k and 300k. Per intersection, including control panel. 

DanDietrich said:

From the discussions about stoplights in South Orange over the years.  We technically don't have any.  They are county owned.  When they are discussed at engineering meetings the number quickly heads north.  Bringing in power, communication, etc adds up quickly. 

The intersections in question are in Maplewood. Also they are not on county roads. Is the cost really borne by the county in that case?

sac said:

DanDietrich said:

From the discussions about stoplights in South Orange over the years.  We technically don't have any.  They are county owned.  When they are discussed at engineering meetings the number quickly heads north.  Bringing in power, communication, etc adds up quickly. 

The intersections in question are in Maplewood. Also they are not on county roads. Is the cost really borne by the county in that case?

I am only answering the question about where I got my numbers.  I know this isn't South Orange and doesn't involve the county.  I would ask Jaytee where he gets his much lower number.

Before asking my question I did a quick general search on the net.  The results I got included ranges from $80-500K.  I didn’t spend the time to read further, at least not yet.  The lower figure may be for a single light while the higher number may be for a complex intersection, requiring multiple light (such as multiple road at a traffic circle).  

In this case, I believe, there’s already a flashing light at the intersection we’re talking about.  That means the infrastructure is in place right now.  Poles and electric connections shouldn’t be a problem.  Perhaps there’s a small problem with the cables holding the light hanging there might need to be strengthened for added weight and a control panel installed.  I’m sure the upgrades needed would be less $100K.

DanDietrich spoke from some experience, though not directly applicable; Apollo_T did a (quick) web search; and Jaytee thinks milk comes in waxed cartons and Ford controls Mazda.

All informative, but it looks like the jury’s still out.

DaveSchmidt said:

DanDietrich spoke from some experience, though not directly applicable; Apollo_T did a (quick) web search; and Jaytee thinks milk comes in waxed cartons and Ford controls Mazda.

All informative, but it looks like the jury’s still out.

I was hoping you would clarify the cost of installing traffic lights at a four way intersection for us, you always have the right answer or a legitimate link to the information. I’m always looking forward to your feedback and corrections, I guess you were too tired last night. 
I’m not surprised South Orange got a quote of $1,000,000 for a traffic light….contractors think it’s all millionaires who live around here… try getting a quote for a kitchen or bathroom around here. 
That contractor that did the bathroom for Maplewood township for $5000 should advertise here on MOL…  

This is from NJ.com in 2008, so it is probably pretty low 

There are nearly 12,000 traffic lights in New Jersey, and only a quarter of them are on state roads. The rest are on local streets and county thoroughfares. The average cost is $800,000. It's not just the price of hanging the hardware, Reiser said; sewerage improvements, curb replacements and sidewalks can drive up the pricetag

Jaytee said:

I’m always looking forward to your feedback and corrections, I guess you were too tired last night.

Though well rested, I would have had no idea what I was talking about, so I deferred.

There’s already a four way traffic light installed at this intersection. The lights blink, it can be changed in the control panel. Nobody is talking about installing million dollar lights there, instead it’s a four way stop

Everyone here seems to believe that the accident pictured in the original post was caused by a car speeding downhill over the crest of the hill.  Look at the original post and you'll see that the overturned car is a few feet UPHILL of the intersection.  I'm scratching my head about that.  Could the prevailing concept of the accident's cause be wrong?  It would be interesting to see the official police report instead of assuming.

mrmaplewood said:

Everyone here seems to believe that the accident pictured in the original post was caused by a car speeding downhill over the crest of the hill. Look at the original post and you'll see that the overturned car is a few feet UPHILL of the intersection. I'm scratching my head about that. Could the prevailing concept of the accident's cause be wrong? It would be interesting to see the official police report instead of assuming.

Crash Scene Investigation: Maplewood.

As far as I can tell, two commenters speculated that speed was the cause of that crash. The rest of the discussion has centered on longtime concerns about the safety of that intersection, independent of that specific accident.

mrmaplewood said:

Everyone here seems to believe that the accident pictured in the original post was caused by a car speeding downhill over the crest of the hill.  Look at the original post and you'll see that the overturned car is a few feet UPHILL of the intersection.  I'm scratching my head about that.  Could the prevailing concept of the accident's cause be wrong?  It would be interesting to see the official police report instead of assuming.

whichever direction the vehicle was traveling, it's hard to imagine it being flipped on its roof if high speed of one of the vehicles didn't contribute tremendously. 

Speed aside, someone didn't heed the prominently posted signage.  But (here I'm assuming) a speeder seems to have been travelling UPHILL, not downward over the crest.

It's been a while, but my recollection is that a good number of accidents at that intersection were caused by confusion about who had to stop, regardless of speed.  E.g., someone traveling on Maplewood stops at the sign, then proceeds in front of a car traveling on Jefferson (not necessarily too fast), because they expect the Jefferson driver to stop.  Fingers crossed that having a 4-way stop will reduce the number of fender benders as well as the more serious accidents involving speed.

I'm surpised posters are arguing over the cost of traffic lights and 4-way stops.  My guess is that most are on board with a safer intersection that will save money and possibly lives in the long run.

My only argument is that they should start with the two four way stops and see if that works.  Personally I think that it will work.  

mjc said:

It's been a while, but my recollection is that a good number of accidents at that intersection were caused by confusion about who had to stop, regardless of speed. E.g., someone traveling on Maplewood stops at the sign, then proceeds in front of a car traveling on Jefferson (not necessarily too fast), because they expect the Jefferson driver to stop.

One could even imagine the Jefferson driver slamming the brakes and swerving before reaching the intersection in order to avert a collision, possibly even overturning in the process, depending on speed and how the swerving car may have hit the curb. But that would be pure speculation.

Has the frequency of accidents increased over the years? Any stats on that?

dave said:

Has the frequency of accidents increased over the years? Any stats on that?

The draft report prepared by the Master Plan consultants (which is available on the town website) shows motor vehicle crash statistics for the most dangerous intersections in Maplewood, including the intersection which inspired the thread.  However, that data only goes up to 2020.  It would be interesting to see how the Pandemic impacted those numbers.

mjc said:

It's been a while, but my recollection is that a good number of accidents at that intersection were caused by confusion about who had to stop, regardless of speed.  E.g., someone traveling on Maplewood stops at the sign, then proceeds in front of a car traveling on Jefferson (not necessarily too fast), because they expect the Jefferson driver to stop.  Fingers crossed that having a 4-way stop will reduce the number of fender benders as well as the more serious accidents involving speed.

a driver traveling at the speed limit should be able to stop ahead of crashing into a car that pulled out from the stop sign in most cases. And certainly wouldn't cause the kind of severe crashes that prompted the changes in the intersection. 

I've seen enough crashes at that intersection that I can say with confidence that 99% of the problem has been speeding.  

I cross this intersection often and when on Maplewood Avenue crossing Jefferson I always look uphill first, then downhill to ascertain safe passage, then I look uphill again before proceeding because I worry about someone topping the crest coming down at speed.  This is what I do, but I'm sure many drivers don't show the same precaution that I feel is necessary.  Making the intersection a four-way stop may be the answer, but initially there will be local drivers on Jefferson who will not recognize the new stop requirement at first.  Even with new and prominent signage, I would expect the new traffic pattern could lead to increased accidents during the initial "break in" time.