Is Bill Cosby Not Innocent until proven guilty?

You are repulsed by people who you don't find funny?

Is this like a magnetic repulsion? If I tie you to the back of a broken down car and push Bill Cosby toward you, will the car move?

or is it magnetic revulsion?

I actually liked him in "Mother, Jugs, and Speed." However, that role was not in keeping with the family friendly image he spent decades cultivating. I haven't seen any of his earlier work so I don't know if that one role was an anomaly or not.

I remember this. as kids we loved his sports routines

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tslhul73z-0

he apparently is not a nice man

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/bill-cosby-didnt-rape-me-but-what-he-did-has-always-given-me-the-creeps/

ml1 said:

I should probably not have said they sat on the story. I think it would be better described that most mainstream media outlets didn't seem to give the story much credence. I've only become aware of the details over the past year or so. I wasn't aware that he was accused of drugging women. I wasn't aware of the number of accusations. And I pay attention to the news. I only knew he was accused of forcing himself on a woman who sued him.

mjh said:

Please, there was not much coverage at all. Most people are currently surprised/shocked because they didn't know these stories existed until recently.

From today's Times:

The current furor surrounding Mr. Cosby had its root in accusations brought in 2005 by Andrea Constand, a female staff member with the basketball team at Temple University, Mr. Cosby’s alma mater. She said she had been drugged and molested by Mr. Cosby.
...
But women had been describing similar episodes with Mr. Cosby in the nine years since the suit was settled. Ms. Bowman spoke about her charges to Philadelphia magazine and People magazine in 2006.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/business/media/bill-cosby-fallout-rape-accusations.html?rref=business/media&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Media&pgtype=article

I lived in Philadelphia at the time and work in mainstream media, two facts that influence my perspective, so take this for what it's worth. But I think your belated awareness of these allegations may have more to do (as the Times article suggests) with the rapid increase, even just since then, in the speed and breadth of how news spreads, along with Cosby's decision to thrust himself back into the public eye, than it does with outlets not giving the allegations credence or coverage in the first place.

drummerboy said:

he apparently is not a nice man

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/bill-cosby-didnt-rape-me-but-what-he-did-has-always-given-me-the-creeps/

THAT is some seriously creepy shizz. Whoa.

ml1 said:

I remember this. as kids we loved his sports routines

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tslhul73z-0

I always liked this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmZ0tVOTr3o

drummerboy said:

he apparently is not a nice man

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/bill-cosby-didnt-rape-me-but-what-he-did-has-always-given-me-the-creeps/

I was going to say that a lot of celebs aren't like the persona they show the public. For example my grandmother ran into Jackie Gleason once and claimed he was a complete jerk. But then I read the article. What the author says happened goes beyond a celebrity having a show business facade and temporarily showing their other side. The apple thing was just weird and creepy.

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

I should probably not have said they sat on the story. I think it would be better described that most mainstream media outlets didn't seem to give the story much credence. I've only become aware of the details over the past year or so. I wasn't aware that he was accused of drugging women. I wasn't aware of the number of accusations. And I pay attention to the news. I only knew he was accused of forcing himself on a woman who sued him.

mjh said:

Please, there was not much coverage at all. Most people are currently surprised/shocked because they didn't know these stories existed until recently.

From today's Times:

The current furor surrounding Mr. Cosby had its root in accusations brought in 2005 by Andrea Constand, a female staff member with the basketball team at Temple University, Mr. Cosby’s alma mater. She said she had been drugged and molested by Mr. Cosby.
...
But women had been describing similar episodes with Mr. Cosby in the nine years since the suit was settled. Ms. Bowman spoke about her charges to Philadelphia magazine and People magazine in 2006.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/business/media/bill-cosby-fallout-rape-accusations.html?rref=business/media&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Media&pgtype=article

I lived in Philadelphia at the time and work in mainstream media, two facts that influence my perspective, so take this for what it's worth. But I think your belated awareness of these allegations may have more to do (as the Times article suggests) with the rapid increase, even just since then, in the speed and breadth of how news spreads, along with Cosby's decision to thrust himself back into the public eye, than it does with outlets not giving the allegations credence or coverage in the first place.

maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I had no idea this went beyond a couple of women. and I wasn't aware of the details. I think I was more aware that he had been blackmailed by the daughter he had with a woman who was not his wife.

I always thought he was an arrogant f*ck even in his heyday. His interviews were always telling.

ml1 said:

maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I had no idea this went beyond a couple of women. and I wasn't aware of the details. I think I was more aware that he had been blackmailed by the daughter he had with a woman who was not his wife.

I don't think it's a reflection on your or anybody's attention. The blackmailing is an interesting comparison: There was a public trial, and Cosby was only a few years removed from the end of his long reign on Thursday nights.

By the time the stories came out of Philly, as I recall, even the "poundcake" spotlight had faded. If a local editor elsewhere noticed a wire service report based on them, he or she probably figured there were bigger, more newsworthy celebrities at the moment to fill the newsprint, homepage or airtime. Maybe it got a brief item, if anything.* The viral Buress video, the Netflix comedy special, the plan for another NBC sitcom and the new biography helped change that.

*Which I guess does dovetail with mjh's coverage comment.

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I had no idea this went beyond a couple of women. and I wasn't aware of the details. I think I was more aware that he had been blackmailed by the daughter he had with a woman who was not his wife.

I don't think it's a reflection on your or anybody's attention. The blackmailing is an interesting comparison: There was a public trial, and Cosby was only a few years removed from the end of his long reign on Thursday nights.

By the time the stories came out of Philly, as I recall, even the "poundcake" spotlight had faded. If a local editor elsewhere noticed a wire service report based on them, he or she probably figured there were bigger, more newsworthy celebrities at the moment to fill the newsprint, homepage or airtime. Maybe it got a brief item, if anything.* The viral Buress video, the Netflix comedy special, the plan for another NBC sitcom and the new biography helped change that.

*Which I guess does dovetail with mjh's coverage comment.

Either I have a horrible memory or I was completely not paying attention because these allegations are all news to me. I don't remember them coming out before at all.

As for him being a creep, it wasn't until he started giving his "blame the black folks" speeches that he started to creep me out.

Crisis management firm.

Bill Cosby aside for a moment. Have any of you seen the on-air interviews with him and his wife sitting alongside him with that big smile on her face as he's not responding to allegations of rape, asking a reporter to edit the portion of the interview where she asks him about the allegations, etc., etc.? What's THAT all about?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew

mumstheword said:

Bill Cosby aside for a moment. Have any of you seen the on-air interviews with him and his wife sitting alongside him with that big smile on her face as he's not responding to allegations of rape, asking a reporter to edit the portion of the interview where she asks him about the allegations, etc., etc.? What's THAT all about?

Reminds me of Chris Krispy's wife, with a Stepford Wives grin on her face when she is with her husband when he is in his bully mode.

I do remember about the young woman who claimed to be his daughter, so it must have been getting some coverage at the time. But I agree completely with Dave Schmidt about how dramatically the media have changed over the past decade or two. News (and gossip) move at the speed of light now, and it's easy to forget how new that phenomenon is. Even 10 years ago none of us had news feeds popping up throughout the day blaring the latest developments at us. And a lot of the media are fed by sensationalism, so a story like this is something they live for.

I'm not saying he didn't do what these women are saying he did. Clearly something has been horribly wrong with his treatment of women (and probably people in general) for a very long time. But until recently, we wouldn't have been anywhere near as aware of it.

It all makes me very sad. I remember growing up listening to his stand-up comedy on LPs, and my family quotes from his "Noah's Ark" and "Adam and Eve" skits even now. He really was good at it, back in the day. Later, he lost that funny edge. Now, he's just all kinds of dark and creepy.

I'm reminded of the way the media -- and the public -- didn't sensationalize (or even mention) FDR's (now they're saying it wasn't polio, but something else) disability and illness. And how there was never any mention of JFK's infidelities. And so much more. It is truly a different world now. Since there's never any "going back" -- where can it go?

The question I keep asking about the Crosby thing is, if all of these women are telling the truth, or even if a number of them are (I can't judge what's true or not), and there is no way to prosecute him now and there is nothing for them to benefit from by telling their stories -- why NOW? What is it about now that this is all happening? I can't help but think there's something else in the shadows that we don't (yet) know about that's the reason for all of this happening at this time and place.

And since all of the allegations are carbon copies of the other (he seduces them, drugs them, rapes them), I would hope that these women would band together and provide some sort of support organization for young women and educate them on self-love and how to handle themselves if they find themselves in these kinds of experiences, because it's still happening today and not just with "famous" people.

mumstheword said:

Bill Cosby aside for a moment. Have any of you seen the on-air interviews with him and his wife sitting alongside him with that big smile on her face as he's not responding to allegations of rape, asking a reporter to edit the portion of the interview where she asks him about the allegations, etc., etc.? What's THAT all about?

$

Student_Council said:

mumstheword said:

Bill Cosby aside for a moment. Have any of you seen the on-air interviews with him and his wife sitting alongside him with that big smile on her face as he's not responding to allegations of rape, asking a reporter to edit the portion of the interview where she asks him about the allegations, etc., etc.? What's THAT all about?

$

She needs counselling in addition to the women harmed.

It seems so obvious to me why these women are coming out now. They were silenced. Yes, money made their voices go away at the time. Now, as Cosby is about to launch a pretty good "comeback" career, they're pissed. They're likely mad at themselves for allowing this to be silenced, mad at themselves because it paved the way for others to be abused and are pissed as all hell that this guy is getting away with IT ALL. They're pissed, and they have nothing to lose or gain other than to see him finally pay in the spotlight for what he's done.

I'm saddened by all of this too. I listened to him on LP as a kid (along with Bob Newhart - hysterical). He portrayed great characters. But, if he's guilty of these things, I say let it be known that money can't make your actions go away forever.

NYT today: For Some Fans, Accusations of Rape Crumble Bill Cosby’s Wholesome Image. By KATE ZERNIKENOV. (edited)

As woman after woman has come forward to accuse Bill Cosby of sexual assault, there has been growing public revulsion, but also a nagging question: Did it have to be Cliff Huxtable? He was America’s Dad, the star and co-creator of the most-watched show in America in an era when network television drew big enough audiences to shift the national conversation. Parents and children watched together, identified themselves in the struggles big and small of the characters. Mr. Cosby’s was an old-school obstetrician, the kindly type whom women trusted to guide them to motherhood. It has made the rising drumbeat of allegations more shattering than typical celebrity misbehavior. Particularly for Americans who grew up with “The Cosby Show,” the transformation of Mr. Cosby’s image has produced the discomfort and struggle akin to coming to terms with the dark past of a family member. “He reminds me a lot of my own father, or he did,” said David Rhoden, 47, a computer programmer in Austin, Tex. “Let’s make that clear. Reminded me a lot of my own father.”

Julie Lemaitre protested outside the Maxwell C. King Center for the Performing Arts in Melbourne, Fla., before a show by Bill Cosby on Friday. Credit Phelan M. Ebenhack/Associated Press
While Mr. Rhoden is white, he saw in Mr. Cosby a physical resemblance and the same goofy dancing of his own father. As he spoke, Mr. Rhoden broke into an impression of Dr. Huxtable lecturing his television son, Theo. “I thought he was teaching something,” Mr. Rhoden said. “I thought he was the kind of person you could count on to do the right thing in a not too irritating way.” Mervan Osborne, 46, the associate head of a school in Boston that prepares low-income students for private high schools, felt it as a personal embarrassment, the loss of a hallowed icon — “You know, Cosby, a one-word guy.” “It’s another black male authority figure, one of those people who folks that don’t live on the edges of the country think of as a good black guy; they trust that guy,” said Mr. Osborne, who is black. “I felt a real deflation, not even the outrage I should have felt if the accusations are true.” ...

“He implanted so many positive images, moments, subliminal pictures of what African-Americans can be,” Mr. Osborne said. The portrayal struck him as false — the families he knew in Brooklyn did not live in well-appointed townhouses in the Heights; the Cosby children’s range of skin tones made it a strain to see them as siblings. Still, he recognized the accomplishment. “There was a time when white people used to claim, ‘I watch “Cosby” ’ as their bona fides,” he said. “While we can look at it very cynically, there’s some good in that.” [...MORE]

The closeness and personal pride may be what allowed people to look away when rape accusations against Mr. Cosby surfaced decades ago. And still, with at least 15 women coming forward with similar stories — of being given a drink or a pill by Mr. Cosby, then waking up feeling they had been sexually assaulted — many fans continue to point out that he has never been charged. The women, they say, must be after money. The brownstone at 10 St. Luke’s Place in the West Village was used for exterior shots of the fictional Huxtable family’s home. Credit Nicole Bengiveno/The New York Times
As Mr. Cosby, now 77, took the stage in Melbourne, Fla., on Friday night as part of what was to be a comeback tour, at least two in the audience shouted out, “We love you, Bill Cosby!” To this, Mr. Cosby, wearing a “Hello Friend” sweatshirt, responded with a clenched fist above his head, and many in the crowd copied him. [MORE:]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/23/arts/bill-cosby.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=Moth-Visible&module=inside-nyt-region®ion=inside-nyt-region&WT.nav=inside-nyt-region&_r=0

It could also be that more women are coming forward now as they feel the support of OTHER women to whom the same thing happened. When it was being swept under the rug, each of the women might have felt isolated with her own experience, afraid to go up against a man who had so much wealth and power and who apparently could be quite personally menacing. But as other women stepped forward, each individual woman to whom it happened could feel she was no longer alone, that she had a group to bolster her claim and provide some protection against Cosby's wrath.

Times have changed, too. Not too long ago, women who claimed a famous man had raped them could pretty much count on being dragged through the mud and made to look like sluts who had "asked for it." I think society is a bit more inclined to believe the women who make these claims now. And it paints a pretty scary picture of what has been going on for a very long time, only no one would believe it.

Yes I really thought we that we forgot how much times have changed. And then I read the Rolling Stone expose on UVA and realized that things really haven't changed much at all.

eliz said:

Yes I really thought we that we forgot how much times have changed. And then I read the Rolling Stone expose on UVA and realized that things really haven't changed much at all.

Colleges are changing, but as long as you mix alcohol, various drugs and young men and women, rape is going to happen. So, prevention strategies have to go a lot farther than "no means no" and prosecution of sexual assaults.

Er whaaat? Did you read the article?

Colleges are changing, but as long as you mix alcohol, various drugs and young men and women, rape is going to happen. So, prevention strategies have to go a lot farther than "no means no" and prosecution of sexual assaults.

You are so right. Prevention is the key point. "Prosecution" is too late. And the focus of prevention has to be education around consent which tends not to be as a dichotomous a construct as some people think. The idea that most campus sexual assaults involve strangers or other students who overpower a victim, predators who slip drugs to unsuspecting victims, or students who deliberately ignore the pleas of a victim to stop simply is not accurate. Of course, those situations can happen, but the vast majority of incidents of campus sexual misconduct involve students who know one another and who initially engage in some sort of mutually consensual activity ranging from hand-holding to much more intimate activity. Then, the common scenario is that one partner starts to feel uncomfortable and attempts to signal his/her discomfort and desire to stop but the other ignores that messsage...deliberately, out of ignorance, or due to alcohol/drugs. While some victims send clear messages to "stop", others (typically being 18-19 years old, confused, scared, and intoxicated) tend to send mixed or mild "messages of reluctance" that the other student (also typically being 18-19 years old, confused, scared, excited, and intoxicated) ignores or misses. Yes, at some point what is going on ceases to be consensual, but expressing that and recognizing the message can be challenging and blurry for many college students. This is not meant to excuse more predatory behavior, only to offer my sense of the most common dynamic acquired over a couple decades of dealing with these unfortunate situations.

Educational efforts have to address clarifying one's sexual values, listening to one's partner, sexual communication skills, by-stander intervention (don't let your friends get into challenging situations if you can help it), and the importance of respect for others and one's self. The credo "no means no" really should be replaced with "any sort of reluctance means no".

I sincerely doubt that those of you on MOL who have a son or daughter in college would think of him/her as being likely to commit a sexual assault. But, it happens every day because of the factors I've mentioned. Don't wait for someone like me to call you with that news. Trust me, it is a horrible call to make and even harder to receive. Talk with your sons and daughters before they head off to college.

Sorry for the thread hijack...nothing about Cosby.

Yes it feels like a betrayal considering his image and brand all these years going so far back. Reminds me of how I saw Michael Jackson post-trial. Im not able to separate the craft from the crafter once I learn of something like this. It feels like we got screwed somehow. Along with those women.