Guns, Fights: The Mayors of our two towns and the police need to take control of Columbia high school or we will all be sorry
uncleb said:
pmartinezv said:Pretty sure there are steep penalties for an adult found to be responsible. Further, the idea that guns laws in NJ (since this is where this is happening) need to be tougher shows a lack of understanding of the current gun laws. An adult in NJ needs to interview with a detective, fill out an application that will be reviewed by the Chief Of Police, undergo a psychiatric background check, a criminal background check, provide 3 personal references (who will also be interviewed by the detective) and wait 30+ days to see if they are approved. Once approved, carrying a gun of any type loaded outside of your house or away from a legal gun range (without a carry permit, which is nearly impossible to obtain in NJ) is a felony and carrying a loaded magazine of any type, even if it is not in the gun, is considered the same as carrying a loaded weapon. All of this is appropriate, in my opinion, but the idea that NJ needs gun law reform is unfounded and reactionary, IMHO.
What about gun owners being held accountable when these events occur? What are the laws regarding guns, such as those registered to a parent, being taken by the child to school? Are there any? I don't know to be honest, but I would be curious if anyone is familiar.
I think the argument is that state-by-state laws can only do so much, as guns can be and are easily transported across state lines (esp. up the I-95 gun corridor), so this needs to be addressed at the federal level. Not that this will happen anytime soon, unfortunately.
uncleb said:
pmartinezv said:Pretty sure there are steep penalties for an adult found to be responsible. Further, the idea that guns laws in NJ (since this is where this is happening) need to be tougher shows a lack of understanding of the current gun laws. An adult in NJ needs to interview with a detective, fill out an application that will be reviewed by the Chief Of Police, undergo a psychiatric background check, a criminal background check, provide 3 personal references (who will also be interviewed by the detective) and wait 30+ days to see if they are approved. Once approved, carrying a gun of any type loaded outside of your house or away from a legal gun range (without a carry permit, which is nearly impossible to obtain in NJ) is a felony and carrying a loaded magazine of any type, even if it is not in the gun, is considered the same as carrying a loaded weapon. All of this is appropriate, in my opinion, but the idea that NJ needs gun law reform is unfounded and reactionary, IMHO.
What about gun owners being held accountable when these events occur? What are the laws regarding guns, such as those registered to a parent, being taken by the child to school? Are there any? I don't know to be honest, but I would be curious if anyone is familiar.
However, none of this prevents a teenager from taking a gun from the home and bringing it to school does it? Are there specific laws in NJ to hold the gun owner accountable when this happens even if no crime was committed with the gun as it is the case in the MMS event? My point is that, gun safety is not regulated nor am I saying it should be. Nobody is required to purchase a gun safe or show proof that they are storing their guns safely. But we read daily about toddlers and young children 'finding' guns and hurting themselves with them which points to too many instances of gun owners not securing their guns from a toddler never mind a teenager. There are few places where to hide a gun from a teenager unless it is locked safe for which they don't have the key or code. So gun ownership, even in very well regulated states, still puts our children at risk, when gun owners are not storing their guns safely. So if a child/teen decides to bring his/her dad's gun to school, even if just to show it off to classmates, the gun owner should lose the ability to own a gun, in my opinion. If you can be safe with it, you should not have the right to have one. From what I see here, indeed there are some laws in place in NJ. I wonder if in this case the parents will be held liable and will face charges.
http://smartgunlaws.org/child-access-prevention-policy-summary/#footnote_30_5958
Jude said:
Police can come in when called for a crisis. They cannot simply walk in and declare they are in charge without the school administration asking them to. The school is not a crime scene. If the principal asks the cops to leave, they have to leave once the "crisis" is handled and done.
it's a crime scene if a kid is carrying a loaded gun, and the gun is filled with hollow point bullets - (illegal in nj unless kept in your home for self-protection) - in what world do the police have to get the school's permission to come in, or leave when the school tells them to? it's a public school, not an embassy with sovereignty.
fwiw i basically agree with your other points, and i don't mean to pick apart your post, but the idea that if a crime is occurring on school grounds the police have to wait for an invitation is just incorrect.
holymoly said:
Jude said:it's a crime scene if a kid is carrying a loaded gun, and the gun is filled with hollow point bullets - (illegal in nj unless kept in your home for self-protection) - in what world do the police have to get the school's permission to come in, or leave when the school tells them to? it's a public school, not an embassy with sovereignty.
Police can come in when called for a crisis. They cannot simply walk in and declare they are in charge without the school administration asking them to. The school is not a crime scene. If the principal asks the cops to leave, they have to leave once the "crisis" is handled and done.
fwiw i basically agree with your other points, and i don't mean to pick apart your post, but the idea that if a crime is occurring on school grounds the police have to wait for an invitation is just incorrect.
I think you're talking about 2 different things. I believe Jude was speaking about police presence in the building on an ad-hoc, day-to-day basis, not police intervention when a crime is underway.
mjh said:
holymoly said:I think you're talking about 2 different things. I believe Jude was speaking about police presence in the building on an ad-hoc, day-to-day basis, not police intervention when a crime is underway.
Jude said:it's a crime scene if a kid is carrying a loaded gun, and the gun is filled with hollow point bullets - (illegal in nj unless kept in your home for self-protection) - in what world do the police have to get the school's permission to come in, or leave when the school tells them to? it's a public school, not an embassy with sovereignty.
Police can come in when called for a crisis. They cannot simply walk in and declare they are in charge without the school administration asking them to. The school is not a crime scene. If the principal asks the cops to leave, they have to leave once the "crisis" is handled and done.
fwiw i basically agree with your other points, and i don't mean to pick apart your post, but the idea that if a crime is occurring on school grounds the police have to wait for an invitation is just incorrect.
fair enough. he mentioned that the school officials can ask police to leave when a "crisis" is over, so i thought he was speaking of the latter situation. apologies if i misunderstood.
I laughed at this, until I remembered that there are people who really think this way.
ml1 said:
if only the other MMS kids had been armed. all it takes to stop a bad kid with a gun is a good kid with a gun.
doris said:
I laughed at this, until I remembered that there are people who really think this way.
ml1 said:
if only the other MMS kids had been armed. all it takes to stop a bad kid with a gun is a good kid with a gun.
Come to think of it, there may be some states now where what happened at MMS wouldn't have even constituted a crime or a disciplinary offense....
"
States Imposing Criminal Liability for Allowing a Child to Gain Access to the Firearm, Regardless of Whether the Child Uses the Firearm or Causes Injury
California
District of Columbia
Hawaii
Maryland
Massachusetts
Minnesota
New Jersey
Texas"
The above from smartgunlaws.org
So to answer those who wondered if an adult in subject to criminal penalties for allowing a gun to be accessed by a child (defined as someone under 16), the answer is yes. Not sure if it is a felony (although it should be).
How despicable that our school children are getting the message that this behavior is "ok" and "routine."
We can only hope that our kids will get the support they deserve from their community and school administration to insure these events don't become ok and routine.
roycer said:
How despicable that our school children are getting the message that this behavior is "ok" and "routine."
roycer said:
We can only hope that our kids will get the support they deserve from their community and school administration to insure these events don't become ok and routine.
Where do you come up with crap like this?
meandtheboys Jun 5, 2015 at 06:05pm Edited
roycer said:
How despicable that our school children are getting the message that this behavior is "ok" and "routine."
roycer said:
We can only hope that our kids will get the support they deserve from their community and school administration to insure these events don't become ok and routine.
Where do you come up with crap like this?
Excuse me?
I won't return your personal attack and won't engage in a dialogue with anyone who uses expletives.
If my comments weren't clear to anyone else reading the thread, unfortunately there's been an alarmingly "blasé" attitude from some commenting maplewoodonline and in the news that the recent events of guns, fights and gropings in our schools weren't so "out of the ordinary" in our contemporary society. Stating that perhaps not much can be done.
That's very disconcerting and a terrible message to send our children.
I received this email from the town.
Recent incidents at Columbia High School and Maplewood Middle Schools have understandably raised concerns about how to keep our children safe, both in our schools and in our larger community. We therefore invite parents and other community members to join members of the administration, board of education, and municipal officials to discuss:
- Ensuring a safe and positive climate in our schools
- Ways to protect our children from guns and other threats of violence
- Supporting students in times of crisis.
We want to hear from you! Join us Monday, June 8, 2015 from 7:00PM to 9:00PM at the Maplewood Middle School Auditorium at 7 Burnet Street in Maplewood NJ.
Saying that a condition is prevalent throughout the country isn't the same thing as saying that nothing should be done. Quite the opposite. This is a call for something to be done both locally and on a national level. Since the local issue is easier for us to deal with, we should start here at home with identifying the circumstances in our community that lead to this form of behavior and then doing something to change or at least counter balance them. The Town Hall meeting scheduled for Monday is a good place to start but we need to see some real, constructive action coming from it.
My comments were addressed to the title of the thread -- Mayors and Police Need to Take Control of the High School.
Yes, when a report that a student has a gun or weapon, of course the police are called in. The thread was saying, if I interpret the intent, that municipal control of the schools is required for more than a few hours, i.e., ongoing control independent of the desires of the District or School administrators. Otherwise, what would be the point of the thread?
When a crisis, the police come in and take control of the search for the weapon and student. Once the crisis is over the police leave and a couple may stay in the building with the admin team, but at that point the admin team is back in control. The admin team decides what next steps, if any, are needed for that day and following days, not the police nor the mayors.
When a statement is made that the mayors and police should take control of the high school, I have to assume it means more than the time it takes to defuse a crisis. That would be ongoing control independent of and perhaps in defiance of the elected Board of Education and its appointed administrators. That latter case would not happen. The difference between the two towns and the District is that the towns have police powers and the District does not. Police powers do not give one elected body jurisdiction over another -- the Board of Ed is not appointed by the elected officials of the towns; it is independently elected and not subservient to either or both towns.
The fact that a couple of fights occur or that one student at the high school brought a weapon into the school is not data that says the school is out of control. Since the gun came from outside one could argue that the two towns are not in control of how weapons make their way into the towns. Should the State of NJ take over the towns because weapons are found in the towns?
In both schools as soon as the issue of a weapon was made known to an administrator the police were called and appropriate lockdown procedures were implemented immediately. Sounds like to me control was firmly established by each school's admin team. The faculty and staff have been trained in such procedures and everyone knew what to do. In each case the student was identified. The weapon taken and the student were removed from the building and placed under arrest.
That sounds like complete control of the two weapons situations -- admin team and the police.
The fights may very well be an issue beyond the control of any group. If kids can't fight in the building they will fight outside the building or down the street. I went to a private, Catholic, Jesuit high school a half century ago and discipline was just short of a military school -- you couldn't talk in the halls between classes, for example -- and there were still fights. No social media then but crowds on a smaller scale still gathered. Social media does help in promoting the spectacle of a fight -- just ask any student.
I doubt that fights in and of themselves indicate a breakdown of control and there is little the police can do on an ongoing basis other than patrol outside the school, which they did yesterday to great effect. If we have a massive police presence in the building all day every day we can expect that the fun and excitement that many kids will have will vanish as the school becomes more like a military school.
Also expect the towns to bill the district as the number of police needed for "control" on an ongoing basis would require the hiring of more police. In fact, there used to be a police officer assigned to the school on a permanent basis but that money ran out and Maplewood was unwilling to fund it. If you have ever been in CHS it is a sprawling building with 4 levels in D-Wing, 2 in C-wing, 3 in A-wing and 3 in B-wing. We have around 20 doorways into the building. We have 3 parking lots separated from the building (one across the street on Valley and two up Parker close to the NJT tracks.) The gas station conveniently built a 7-11 for the obvious purpose of catering to the students, so there is that hangout. And there is Maplewood Pizzeria at Valley and Parker. Ritzer field is also vast.
If someone wants "control" by the two towns we are talking a very large police presence on an ongoing basis that will cost a lot. If that is what is desired, the two towns will face a tax increase or the District will face one-to-one layoff of teachers -- one teacher replaced by one cop.
Part of this may be that kids this age love drama and attention, and use the former to get the latter. I know I am more focussed on my kid when s/he comes home and says, "there was a fight at school" then when s/he tells me about the social studies review packet s/he did eighth period. Mention gangs, and I get even more interested.
Is it possible some of us are getting wound up by our kids a bit?
There is also the fact that kids spreading the "news" can get the facts wrong, so it's possible that a lot of what parents are hearing from their kids simply isn't true, even if the kid completely believes it. It's like playing telephone... the more times an account gets passed on, the more colorful details get added, or facts get taken away. So when your kids tell you something about what's going on at school, trust -- but verify.
Interesting idea, PeggyC, but I wonder how we could verify? I can't even get a human being to pick up the phone at CHS if I'm trying to verify a late opening because of testing in another grade. And if we can't verify, do we just decide nothing our kids say about what is happening at school is untrue?
annesimms said:
It is distinctly "out of control" when any child brings a GUN to school. This happened twice in two days at two different schools. Unfortunately the fights at CHS become secondary now to the gun events but this is indeed very serious and should be address swiftly and with great concern by the administration and by the police.
For clarity, the "gun" brought to CHS was a BB gun which is not a real handgun.
And I am a heavy proponent of strict gun control. But this is not a gun that can do serious bodily harm.
mjh said:
Excellent points, Jude. Thank you.
Agreed. It's nice to have clear thinking people in CHS providing perspective to the anxioustownsfolk.
uncleb said:
pmartinezv said:Pretty sure there are steep penalties for an adult found to be responsible. Further, the idea that guns laws in NJ (since this is where this is happening) need to be tougher shows a lack of understanding of the current gun laws. An adult in NJ needs to interview with a detective, fill out an application that will be reviewed by the Chief Of Police, undergo a psychiatric background check, a criminal background check, provide 3 personal references (who will also be interviewed by the detective) and wait 30+ days to see if they are approved. Once approved, carrying a gun of any type loaded outside of your house or away from a legal gun range (without a carry permit, which is nearly impossible to obtain in NJ) is a felony and carrying a loaded magazine of any type, even if it is not in the gun, is considered the same as carrying a loaded weapon. All of this is appropriate, in my opinion, but the idea that NJ needs gun law reform is unfounded and reactionary, IMHO.
What about gun owners being held accountable when these events occur? What are the laws regarding guns, such as those registered to a parent, being taken by the child to school? Are there any? I don't know to be honest, but I would be curious if anyone is familiar.
Or drive to a gun show in Virginia with cash and come home later that day with a gun.
Woot said:
annesimms said:For clarity, the "gun" brought to CHS was a BB gun which is not a real handgun.
It is distinctly "out of control" when any child brings a GUN to school. This happened twice in two days at two different schools. Unfortunately the fights at CHS become secondary now to the gun events but this is indeed very serious and should be address swiftly and with great concern by the administration and by the police.
And I am a heavy proponent of strict gun control. But this is not a gun that can do serious bodily harm.
An airsoft gun, at that. It only shoots little plastic balls. A toy basically. They sell them off the shelf at Dick's.
ligeti said:
Looks like a gun. Shoots projectiles like a gun. No.
Yes, they look like guns with bright orange plastic tips. The "projectiles" that they fire can only hurt you if they end up in your eye. I've been hit with one point blank. Left a small mark that disappeared within a few minutes.
That doesn't make them less scary to someone it's pointed at, particularly if the orange tip is cut off. And it certainly doesn't belong in a school. But it's hardly a deadly weapon.
Pretty sure there are steep penalties for an adult found to be responsible. Further, the idea that guns laws in NJ (since this is where this is happening) need to be tougher shows a lack of understanding of the current gun laws. An adult in NJ needs to interview with a detective, fill out an application that will be reviewed by the Chief Of Police, undergo a psychiatric background check, a criminal background check, provide 3 personal references (who will also be interviewed by the detective) and wait 30+ days to see if they are approved. Once approved, carrying a gun of any type loaded outside of your house or away from a legal gun range (without a carry permit, which is nearly impossible to obtain in NJ) is a felony and carrying a loaded magazine of any type, even if it is not in the gun, is considered the same as carrying a loaded weapon. All of this is appropriate, in my opinion, but the idea that NJ needs gun law reform is unfounded and reactionary, IMHO.