Gifted and Talented discussions at 1/27/14 and 2/24/14 SOMSD BOE meetings
Jan 30, 2014 at 6:34am Edited
How does one define talent? If a child has exceptional musical talent, is this part of G&T? What are the talent categories?
I am beginning to think that communities can never be fully prepared to meet all the needs the individual students require in the various categories where they fall or someone places them. Maybe a larger geographical area such as the county level could respond better.
As far as the gifted the major complaint has always been to let them use their gifts to push themselves ahead. They will figure it out. A friend of mine tells me that he was totally bored in second grade and was a class distraction. The teacher sent him to spend time with th he janitor.
I am beginning to think that communities can never be fully prepared to meet all the needs the individual students require in the various categories where they fall or someone places them. Maybe a larger geographical area such as the county level could respond better.
As far as the gifted the major complaint has always been to let them use their gifts to push themselves ahead. They will figure it out. A friend of mine tells me that he was totally bored in second grade and was a class distraction. The teacher sent him to spend time with th he janitor.
Myboys said:
When districts were hit hard a few years ago with the massive budget cuts, the easiest thing to eliminate was G&T because districts could say that all teachers were differentiating in the classroom. However, many teachers do not differentiate across the board in their rooms. It is almost an impossible expectation.
Time for a recent anecdotal story. I have a child in 4th grade, and he is currently in the math enrichment program. He loves math enrichment, and loves math in general. It seems to come very easily to him up to this point. During parent teacher conferences this past fall, I met with the Language Arts teacher, as this year they split subjects between 2 teachers. When it came time to talk math, I was given papers of recent work, both from the 4th grade math teacher and the enrichment teacher. I was asked how he feels about math, the teacher claiming not to know, since she teaches only Language Arts. I responded saying he loves it, perhaps because so far it is all "easy" to him. The teacher responded by explaining how she feels about the enrichment program, saying it is a shame that many hard-working kids don't get in, and if they do get in, they struggle and feel stress..., and so on.
I found this discussion of math enrichment, which wasn't even with the math teachers, very disheartening. This was just one teacher, but clearly there are others who are not on board, so I am not surprised that it is going away. Unfortunately, I think much of this is a district-wide outlook on services for G&T, and sadly it is not a well-informed perspective. Plus, if this is the outlook of the teacher, differentiation is most likely not happening in her classroom. Perhaps many teachers are more sympathetic to the hard-workers. Perhaps this is just the way it is, especially in K-5, but this does a disservice to students who are on a course for easy street, because they are not challenged, and are not seen in a positive light as students. And then when easy street gets bumpy later on...
susan1014 said:
She is still struggling with an expectation that math should be effortless to learn, a belief that is driving her out of top level HS courses.
@susan1014 describes a traditional path for such students who show ability very early on.
I read a post somewhere that indicated that the ST Math (which I understand to have a somewhat self-directed online component, is that right?) does NOT allow students to work ahead of grade level. I don't get this. If they have something that students can use online, why the heck NOT let kids go as far as they can with it?
I remember when I was in 7th grade and, along with one other student, was pretty bored in my math class. My teacher made a deal with the two of us that she would give us the lesson plans/assignments to work ahead, and would give us help here and there if/when we needed it, IF we would agree to teach a lesson on one of our work-ahead topics when the rest of the class got to that point. I still think it was a great approach on her part, because we not only got to work at our pace, but we also were stretched a bit to think about how to teach the topics to others, not just to learn them for ourselves.
Sadly for us, she left in the middle of the year (to have a baby) and the replacement teacher refused to allow us to work ahead anymore, so then we were even more bored.
I remember when I was in 7th grade and, along with one other student, was pretty bored in my math class. My teacher made a deal with the two of us that she would give us the lesson plans/assignments to work ahead, and would give us help here and there if/when we needed it, IF we would agree to teach a lesson on one of our work-ahead topics when the rest of the class got to that point. I still think it was a great approach on her part, because we not only got to work at our pace, but we also were stretched a bit to think about how to teach the topics to others, not just to learn them for ourselves.
Sadly for us, she left in the middle of the year (to have a baby) and the replacement teacher refused to allow us to work ahead anymore, so then we were even more bored.
Jan 30, 2014 at 7:08am Edited
http://www.reformer.com/news/ci_25022346/vermont-helps-students-personalized-learning-plans
Vermont helps students with personalized learning plans
By LISA RATHKE / Associated Press
POSTED: 01/30/2014
HINESBURG -- Abby Trombley wasn’t feeling challenged in school.
So with the help of her parents the high school sophomore enrolled in classes at the University of Vermont and developed a job shadow with an orthopedic surgeon.
"This made such a monumental difference in me because I was able to create an environment where I was challenged, engaged and really interested in what I was learning," said Trombley, a student at Champlain Valley Union High School on Wednesday.
"And I think that much more students would take advantage of these opportunities if they knew they were available."
State education officials agree -- the Vermont Agency of Education launched a website on Wednesday to help schools, students and parents prepare for such plans.
Based on legislation passed last year, each student eventually will develop a personalized learning plan that matches their career interests and aspirations with their learning, which could include internships and college courses.
Starting next year, Vermont schools will develop plans with seventh and ninth graders and other grades will follow, officials said. Schools and parents will help the students to develop them and have the chance to review and revise them each year.
Gov. Peter Shumlin, who is dyslexic, told the assembled CVU students and staff he wished he had access to such a planning and learning program.
"The idea here is -- whether you are dyslexic like me and don’t learn traditionally or whether you excel traditionally or whether you’re somewhere in the middle -- our job is to have an educational system where everybody succeeds and everybody learns to their potential," he said.
Besides Trombley, the state has seen other students who were struggling in school and weren’t thinking about college but succeeded after taking advantage of more flexible ways of learning, state Education Secretary Rebecca Holcombe said.
"The key to personalized learning plans is to taking the time to sit down with the students and ask where you want to go and figure out the best way to get there," she said. "We have the same high ambitions for all of you but we know you have to walk different paths to get there."
About half of Vermont schools offer some type of personalized learning now, state education officials said, and almost 1,300 students take or have taken college courses as part of dual enrollment in the 2013-2014 academic year. That’s up about 30 percent from 789 in 2012-2013.
Vermont helps students with personalized learning plans
By LISA RATHKE / Associated Press
POSTED: 01/30/2014
HINESBURG -- Abby Trombley wasn’t feeling challenged in school.
So with the help of her parents the high school sophomore enrolled in classes at the University of Vermont and developed a job shadow with an orthopedic surgeon.
"This made such a monumental difference in me because I was able to create an environment where I was challenged, engaged and really interested in what I was learning," said Trombley, a student at Champlain Valley Union High School on Wednesday.
"And I think that much more students would take advantage of these opportunities if they knew they were available."
State education officials agree -- the Vermont Agency of Education launched a website on Wednesday to help schools, students and parents prepare for such plans.
Based on legislation passed last year, each student eventually will develop a personalized learning plan that matches their career interests and aspirations with their learning, which could include internships and college courses.
Starting next year, Vermont schools will develop plans with seventh and ninth graders and other grades will follow, officials said. Schools and parents will help the students to develop them and have the chance to review and revise them each year.
Gov. Peter Shumlin, who is dyslexic, told the assembled CVU students and staff he wished he had access to such a planning and learning program.
"The idea here is -- whether you are dyslexic like me and don’t learn traditionally or whether you excel traditionally or whether you’re somewhere in the middle -- our job is to have an educational system where everybody succeeds and everybody learns to their potential," he said.
Besides Trombley, the state has seen other students who were struggling in school and weren’t thinking about college but succeeded after taking advantage of more flexible ways of learning, state Education Secretary Rebecca Holcombe said.
"The key to personalized learning plans is to taking the time to sit down with the students and ask where you want to go and figure out the best way to get there," she said. "We have the same high ambitions for all of you but we know you have to walk different paths to get there."
About half of Vermont schools offer some type of personalized learning now, state education officials said, and almost 1,300 students take or have taken college courses as part of dual enrollment in the 2013-2014 academic year. That’s up about 30 percent from 789 in 2012-2013.
susan1014 said:
2. The main new addition is a proposal to identify students gifted in the arts, music, dance, leadership, etc., differentiate their intruction in those areas, and provide showcases for their talent (e.g. a District-wide gallery show). In addition, there is a plan to pilot an elementary math competition program at Seth Boyden this year. And, oh yes, they plan to give parents lists of outside opportunities that might be of interest. And maybe they will eventually let kids work ahead in the online ST Math...
I'm sorry but this is laughable on its face and displays an utter lack of understanding on their part of the purpose of G&T or refusal to acknowledge same. This is not American Idol.
if anything, if they refuse to implement a state mandated program, they need to reimburse parents for their cost of having to obtain out of District testing and attendance at out of district G&T programs, such as at MSU. Simply giving parents a "heads up" as to what programs are available simply does not cut it.
Our schools have very good music programming, and students who choose an instrument, can go very far. Theater is also well-represented. Sports, not so much, and I am only mentioning that because perhaps we could classify dance in that category. Leadership??? Hmmmm. No offense, as my teenager would say, but this sounds downright silly as "the main new addition".
ST Math has been going on for my 4th grader now for half a year, and we just got the explanation of his progress. I looked it over with him, and found that he has been working on it for about half the amount of time that is the class average. So, I say to him, perhaps you should work on it some more, because he is also not working on it for the time that is "recommended". But he points out to me that his progress is further than the class average. OK, now smarty pants has learned that he doesn't have to work so much... It is an interesting experience.
wnb said:
Esiders points out, "Special Ed" is federally mandated.
I'll add, G&T is state mandated. You kind of were implying it is optional whereas Special Needs is not. But that's not actually true. They're both mandated at some level.
I think mammabear's point is a valid one, the BOT picks and chooses which mandates it wishes to follow. Perhaps part of that is based on the fact that the state's G&T mandate has no teeth whatsoever, and that the BOT has so far been good and crafting a message that "our regular curriculum is G&T" or something to that effect.
Exactly. The key distinction is that parents and students have a direct right of action against the district under federal law for failure to provide adequate special education services, whereas as there really is no enforcement option for a district's failure to provide the state-mandated G&T instruction.
kareno said:
ST Math has been going on for my 4th grader now for half a year, and we just got the explanation of his progress. I looked it over with him, and found that he has been working on it for about half the amount of time that is the class average. So, I say to him, perhaps you should work on it some more, because he is also not working on it for the time that is "recommended". But he points out to me that his progress is further than the class average. OK, now smarty pants has learned that he doesn't have to work so much... It is an interesting experience.
I have no direct experience with the ST math as my child is now in Middle school but I have heard that there is a lot of plodding through the same work until you can get to the next thing. My friend's son complains that it is just so boring and doesn't progress fast enough. Sounds like drill and kill but on a computer. Unless there is a way for teachers to individually set parameters for kids it doesn't sound like such a terrific G & T tool. Also right now it does not allow kids to get ahead of what they are doing in class.
Most of my elementary school differentiation stories involve math, since in Language Arts classrooms at least have many baskets of books sorted by reading level.
I sat in a meeting earlier this year for my first grader and listened to two or three participants debate whether they would be allowed to unlock higher levels of ST Math for my son, whether they could perhaps get a second grade teacher to quietly add him to her classroom, etc.
Finally, one day my son's teacher just had him stick his cute little head into a second grade classroom and ask if they had a spare workbook that he could have...so now he has a second grade workbook that he can use in class, if he wants to work on it while she teaches the other children. Sometimes he does, other times he wanders around the classroom looking bored. She is one teacher, with 20+ kids, and she isn't being given the materials or support to do anything for a kid who is far ahead of the curve on math.
Bumming a workbook from another classroom seems to be the real state of the art for us in math differentiation...the teachers try hard, on the whole, but they aren't always given the tools they need for the promised differentiation, much less G&T programming.
I sat in a meeting earlier this year for my first grader and listened to two or three participants debate whether they would be allowed to unlock higher levels of ST Math for my son, whether they could perhaps get a second grade teacher to quietly add him to her classroom, etc.
Finally, one day my son's teacher just had him stick his cute little head into a second grade classroom and ask if they had a spare workbook that he could have...so now he has a second grade workbook that he can use in class, if he wants to work on it while she teaches the other children. Sometimes he does, other times he wanders around the classroom looking bored. She is one teacher, with 20+ kids, and she isn't being given the materials or support to do anything for a kid who is far ahead of the curve on math.
Bumming a workbook from another classroom seems to be the real state of the art for us in math differentiation...the teachers try hard, on the whole, but they aren't always given the tools they need for the promised differentiation, much less G&T programming.
It seems like G & T programming could be improved greatly with mostly existing resources. At the elementary level, enrichment could be ended. I think enrichment serves about a third to half of the students. It's really just a fun add on for some students and extremely boring for others. Enrichment teachers could receive training in gifted education and serve more as coaches/facilitators/testers, etc. They could manage the identification process, work with teachers and parents to come up with a plan, and then assist classroom teachers in modifying their curriculum, readings, homework assignments, etc. as necessary for students who really need this. This would also help all teachers to learn how to differentiate more effectively for those who are just fast learners or eager students rather than exceptionally gifted. Clubs and small groups could also be formed throughout the year for specific projects, etc. If about 4% of students are usually classified as gifted, then there should only be about 25-30 students per school so this seems manageable.
At the middle school level, perhaps the IB Coordinator position could become a part-time gifted and talented coordinator as well once IB is more established at the schools.
These are just a few ideas. I'm sure others could come up with better ones. The BOE really should request the administration to rethink their proposal, which was pretty lacking in any details, and come up with something more creative that actually meets the needs of gifted students.
At the middle school level, perhaps the IB Coordinator position could become a part-time gifted and talented coordinator as well once IB is more established at the schools.
These are just a few ideas. I'm sure others could come up with better ones. The BOE really should request the administration to rethink their proposal, which was pretty lacking in any details, and come up with something more creative that actually meets the needs of gifted students.
One can only imagine what the next proposal would be, based upon the talent show doozy. perhaps a Hunger Games style battle of wits with an iPad2 as the grand prize.
joanauer said:
Enrichment teachers could receive training in gifted education and serve more as coaches/facilitators/testers, etc. They could manage the identification process, work with teachers and parents to come up with a plan, and then assist classroom teachers in modifying their curriculum, readings, homework assignments, etc. as necessary for students who really need this.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the enrichment teacher positions were eliminated in the last budgetary cycle.
Neither of my children like ST Math and now that I hear that it doesn't go beyond grade level, I understand why. I assumed from the way it was described to the parents as "self-paced, student-directed" that it would be an adaptive learning system that will allow students to work beyond grade level. Her teacher lets my daughter (4th grade) work on Alex instead in school and she sometimes picks out an area to explore on Khan Academy (now doing geometry). My kindergartener, however, is stuck with ST Math and tells me that math is boring. He can add and subtract with carrying and can do basic multiplication.
I try to provide enrichment at home, but I also want him to learn to enjoy learning.
I try to provide enrichment at home, but I also want him to learn to enjoy learning.
Jan 30, 2014 at 10:25am Edited
dg64 said:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the enrichment teacher positions were eliminated in the last budgetary cycle.
As were the MATH and LA curriculum specialists who were supposed to be supporting our K-5 teachers. Snip, snip here, snip, snip there, in the wonderful Land of Oz.
Jan 30, 2014 at 10:44am Edited
Please do remember that the budget divided by the number of students is EIGHTEEN THOUSAND dollars and is projected to go up to TWENTY TWO thousand dollars in 2017.
At the very generous minimum wage of $10.10, the easy to remember ten ten, a worker gross income is $404.00/wk and $21,008 if my brain is functioning correctly. $18k after tax is a fortune. The ladder of opportunity does not work equally for all.
The money is there. Plenty of it. It needs to be spent wisely. Stuff like new aquatic centers should not make it to a vote like it did recently even in a town that thinks it's wealthy.
WISELY = spend other people money as you would spend it if it was your money. Demand the most for your money.
At the very generous minimum wage of $10.10, the easy to remember ten ten, a worker gross income is $404.00/wk and $21,008 if my brain is functioning correctly. $18k after tax is a fortune. The ladder of opportunity does not work equally for all.
The money is there. Plenty of it. It needs to be spent wisely. Stuff like new aquatic centers should not make it to a vote like it did recently even in a town that thinks it's wealthy.
WISELY = spend other people money as you would spend it if it was your money. Demand the most for your money.
Good guiding principles. Please enumerate the savings under your approach.
Jan 30, 2014 at 10:51am Edited
The BOE is simply trying to come up with a definition of "G&T" that includes everyone. Then they will put on a show. Or maybe they're already putting on the show.
mapletree said:
At the very generous minimum wage of $10.10, the easy to remember ten ten, a worker gross income is $404.00/wk and $21,008 if my brain is functioning correctly. $18k after tax is a fortune.
The number of minimum wage people driving Maybachs is outrageous.
Jan 30, 2014 at 11:01am Edited
Everything in perspective.
We certainly should not be using the facebook founders
Evolution has yet to come up with a money bearing tree.
We certainly should not be using the facebook founders
Evolution has yet to come up with a money bearing tree.
Mapletree,
You are speaking at the level of a BOE meeting which means not much concrete.
You are speaking at the level of a BOE meeting which means not much concrete.
I am FOR G&T programs. I am only asking to make sure the SOMASD spend its budget wisely.
Jan 31, 2014 at 8:07am Edited
The truth is that Osborne and many of the BOE have no interest in serving the gifted and talented. They are far more interested in their achievement gap which they have convinced themselves is all about racial bias. That is their agenda. Every attempt to fight for G&T kids will be met with half heartedness. There is no press and resume benefit for Osborne in that, and for some of those long timers on the BOE, they are only too happy to go along with this.
I suggest that those who can afford it, explore private schools. G&T kids deserve better, and many of the private schools will cater to their needs. For those who can't afford to go that route, continue the fight on behalf of your kids, but realize that it will sap you of energy and you will probably not win. If you can, at least try to have your kids socialize with other G&T kids to help give them some of the mental stimulation they need.
I suggest that those who can afford it, explore private schools. G&T kids deserve better, and many of the private schools will cater to their needs. For those who can't afford to go that route, continue the fight on behalf of your kids, but realize that it will sap you of energy and you will probably not win. If you can, at least try to have your kids socialize with other G&T kids to help give them some of the mental stimulation they need.
Jan 31, 2014 at 8:15am Edited
jayjayp said:
The truth is that Osborne and many of the BOE have no interest in serving the gifted and talented. They are far more interested in their achievement gap which they have convinced themselves is all about racial bias. That is their agenda. Every attempt to fight for G&T kids will be met with half heartedness. There is no press and resume benefit for Osborne in that, and for some of those long timers on the BOE, they are only too happy to go along with this.
I suggest that those who can afford it, explore private schools. G&T kids deserve better, and many of the private schools will cater to their needs. For those who can't afford to go that route, continue the fight on behalf of your kids, but realize that it will sap you of energy and you will probably not win. If you can, at least try to have your kids socialize with other G&T kids to help give them some of the mental stimulation they need.
Osborne is a smart person who, I am sure, knows exactly what is going on. He also has to keep multiple constituencies happy with a finite budget. Having taken a closer look at the what the BOE and Administration do, I have concluded that I would choose waterboarding over their jobs if given a choice.
Jan 31, 2014 at 8:22am Edited
When people questioned the wisdom of funding IB when almost no other public school districts in NJ are doing it, Osborne said, "It's $110 million budget. I will find the money." He finds the money for his pet projects, one of which is most assuredly NOT G&T kids.
As the OP pointed out, our district does not participate in the Essex County Steering Committee for Gifted and Talented Education, which sounds like a great resource, and would cost the district nothing. The district is not interested in helping these students, as JJP correctly states.
As the OP pointed out, our district does not participate in the Essex County Steering Committee for Gifted and Talented Education, which sounds like a great resource, and would cost the district nothing. The district is not interested in helping these students, as JJP correctly states.
Jan 31, 2014 at 4:17pm Edited
JJP and Chalmers are correct. Anyone who has read Ursula K. LeGuin's story The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas will recognize the moral position of the Board and its choice of Superintendent.
Feb 2, 2014 at 8:20pm Edited
gaijin said:
JJP and Chalmers are correct. Anyone who has read Ursula K. LeGuin's story The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas will recognize the moral position of the Board and its choice of Superintendent.
I've read the story now and tried to reach your conclusion, but fell short. Thanks for the reference. It was worth thinking about regardless.
Feb 3, 2014 at 5:40am Edited
Question for "myboys" (and anyone else) - does anyone know what the better districts are for G&T in NJ? In my limited and anecdotal experience, it seems that districts like Springfield, Cranford, Bridgewater provide a more robust G&T program than districts like Millburn, Livingston etc. We actually left the SOMA district when our daughter was in 1st grade and moved to a district with a G&T program. Unfortunately we did not really understand what we were doing at the time, and chose a district with a light-weight weekly pullout. What she really needed was subject acceleration (particularly math). I wish there was a database of NJ school district G&T programs - it is SO hard to make an informed decision re. districts for G&T - not to mention that these programs get cancelled frequently anyway. In retrospect I guess we would have done better in the NYC schools - seems like their G&T is fantastic.
BTW I will add that my daughter also has an IEP.
BTW I will add that my daughter also has an IEP.
Cities can provide a larger variety of services than small towns.
A small town can never be everything to every individual student in every individual grade in every individual family.
You get one elementary school, one middle school, one high school with their limits. The alternative is private school.
A small town can never be everything to every individual student in every individual grade in every individual family.
You get one elementary school, one middle school, one high school with their limits. The alternative is private school.
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Thank you for your thoughts. I am curious what you think of the process so far including the guiding change document and the power point prepared by district and shared at Monday's meeting?