FBI raids Mar-A-Lago

From what I've been able to discern, there were repeated requests for these documents, including a grand jury subpoena.  Some of the documents were returned and his attorneys signed a statement advising that all classified materials had been returned (presumably leaving the issue of unclassified Presidential Records for another day and additional discussions).  It came/was brought to the Department of Justice's attention that there were additional classified documents, including those marked TS/SCI, remaining at MAL notwithstanding protestations to the contrary.  Thus, they presented the evidence to the Magistrate Judge, who is authorized under federal law, who concluded that there was probable cause to believe that the material was present at MAL and that it constituted the violation of one or more federal laws.  Thus, he signed the warrant and the FBI executed it, recovering classified material that he and his representatives claimed did not exist.

Of course there is no SOP for this.  Are you aware of allegations that any other former POTUS retained classified materials following his exit from office, declined to return same, and had representatives sign statements saying that all such materials had been returned?  I, for one, am not.

As for the timing, it seems consistent with when DOJ had sufficient evidence to reach the conclusion that such materials had not been returned.


What material was Clinton withholding that she had refused to turn over? What would the FBI have been trying to secure exactly?

As for the timing, 1) it doesn't appear that it was immediately known which documents were missing, but that this came out over the course of the initial months-long back and forth between the National Archives and Trump, 2) when it came out that, contrary to Trump's claim, he had held back some documents, only then was there a subpoena, and 3) only after Trump ignored the subpoena was there a search warrant.

This seems a sensible process?


I'm not sure what process Trump's defenders are arguing for here -- former presidents should be able to refuse a subpoena?


terp said:

When was Clinton's house raided by the FBI?  We're requests for these documents ignored or denied?  It is odd that there is a raid 17 months after a President leaves the White House.  I don't think there's an SOP for this.  

when did Clinton refuse a subpoena from DOJ? Oh. Never you say?

so desperate . 


terp said:

When was Clinton's house raided by the FBI?  We're requests for these documents ignored or denied?  It is odd that there is a raid 17 months after a President leaves the White House.  I don't think there's an SOP for this.  

All questions for which merely reading the reporting would provide some clarification for you.


nohero said:

It's amazing to see who is rallying around the Trump side in all of this.

(Note - Judge Reinhart is a Magistrate Judge, and they issue warrants)

Judge Reinhart was great in Beverly Hills Cop.


nohero said:

terp said:

When was Clinton's house raided by the FBI?  We're requests for these documents ignored or denied?  It is odd that there is a raid 17 months after a President leaves the White House.  I don't think there's an SOP for this.  

All questions for which merely reading the reporting would provide some clarification for you.

there's no SOP for this because no president since the passage of the Presidential Records Act has decided to take documents into his personal possession.

Those documents (even if they aren't classified) belong to all of us, particularly future historians. I find it amazing that anyone would defend Trump for refusing to give these documents to the National Archives. 


Honestly, from afar this all seems kinda straight forward and in keeping with the man’s character. I vaguely remember an account at the time he was finally moving out of the White House/Oval Office, of ‘ at least 25-30 large document boxes being carried out to the [vehicles]’, and some lighthearted speculation as to what was in them given that working papers etc belong to National Archives, including the doodles. 

While you’ve got the fallout from that going on, we’ve just found out that the two most important people in our nation implicated the Queen’s office in secretly undermining democracy, and establishing a dictatorship. In 2020 Scott Morrison secretly had himself sworn in as Minister for the 5 most important Ministries of government without letting the the current Ministers know. So we had a Treasurer, Health Minister, Home Affairs Minister etc but he also held these positions for 2 years. His explanation/excuses don’t hold water. The Governor General, who swore him in, is revealed as super-shady and highly political. ScoMo is currently an ordinary Member of Parliament and won’t resign, yet this is the biggest scandal since 1975 (the Dismissal)


joanne said:

While you’ve got the fallout from that going on, we’ve just found out that the two most important people in our nation implicated the Queen’s office in secretly undermining democracy, and establishing a dictatorship. In 2020 Scott Morrison secretly had himself sworn in as Minister for the 5 most important Ministries of government without letting the the current Ministers know. So we had a Treasurer, Health Minister, Home Affairs Minister etc but he also held these positions for 2 years. His explanation/excuses don’t hold water. The Governor General, who swore him in, is revealed as super-shady and highly political. ScoMo is currently an ordinary Member of Parliament and won’t resign, yet this is the biggest scandal since 1985.

I read about that. It was newsworthy here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/16/australia-prime-minister-scott-morrison-jobs/

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/16/world/australia/scott-morrison-minister.html

We're in bad shape but your government also seems really screwed up.

Appointing oneself as minister to five departments while keeping it secret from the legislature and the public. That takes the cake.

Does the office of governor general serve any other purpose besides being relic of British reign? The few duties he performs seem to me can be split up and assigned elsewhere.


I’m a little rusty on all the GG’s duties, however according to our Constitution, Queen Elizabeth is Queen of Australia. So the GG represents her office in all regal functions such as delivering Her Majesty’s speeches to Parliament, ratifying legislation, appointing governments and ministers, accepting foreign dignitaries’ credentials, recognising significant achievements, awarding honours etc. If any actual Royal is visiting, the GG (as well as the Governor of each State) step back into ‘department head’ mode. 
State Governors and the GG are actually quite busy, and not just with light social stuff. There’s quite a bit of legal consultation and historical/archival consultation among their duties, plus because they’re above politics they’re often involved in milestone moments for police and military personnel. (Often they’re patrons of important charities and foundations, too, such as Legacy, and the Returned Soldiers League as well as being former military officers, so this work is quite significant )

The fact that’s it unclear if the Queen’s office knew of any of PM Morrison’s extra duties is worrying, as is the absence of the swearing-in appointments from the GG’s official diary. Totally against protocol, and very very shifty. This GG was once one of our top military brass; leaves me deeply troubled about our defensive capabilities. 


I am still trying to wrap my brain around why so many people really love Trump.   I can understand the Republican conservative line of thought that the government is too big, spends too much money, and has too many regulations.   I can understand the abortion/ anti-abortion divide.   As a child of the sixties, I can understand the line of thought that says that says the government is bad and a revolution is needed.  I understand that the internet and cable TV allow wild conspiracy and false information theories to abound.  I understand that racism still a large factor in the US.  Trump panders to all these ideas.   But personal loyalty to Trump is beyond my understanding.   


PS:  I hope the lawyers and those who work for Trump are smart enough to get paid in advance.   


RobertRoe said:

I am still trying to wrap my brain around why so many people really love Trump.   I can understand the Republican conservative line of thought that the government is too big, spends too much money, and has too many regulations.   I can understand the abortion/ anti-abortion divide.   As a child of the sixties, I can understand the line of thought that says that says the government is bad and a revolution is needed.  I understand that the internet and cable TV allow wild conspiracy and false information theories to abound.  I understand that racism still a large factor in the US.  Trump panders to all these ideas.   But personal loyalty to Trump is beyond my understanding.   

Something I’m constantly asking myself also. I guess it’s because he says the things they wish they could say publicly. He’s their “great white hope”…maybe it’s just rational ignorance. I find the people who pay less attention to politics are more inclined to support a person like trump.  It’s an indication of just how many people are ignorant of the issues, and are closeted racists. Trumpism is a philosophy of hatred.


RobertRoe said:

PS:  I hope the lawyers and those who work for Trump are smart enough to get paid in advance.   

Rudy didn’t get paid, and he’s still licking trump’s boots…once trumpenstein gets them on his hook they’re his…


Oy.


If she was blonde he would have taken her down to his secret tunnel…the same tunnel Rudy used to use when he was drunk to avoid the cameras. 
The man is such a jackass.

nohero said:

Oy.


"In any normal case, in my experience, with a responsible, upstanding citizen who may have inadvertently taken government documents, a simple voluntary request for their return would ordinarily suffice. If that failed, a grand jury subpoena would typically do the trick. In this case, neither approach worked. The attorney general had to resort to the most intrusive method of obtaining the return of the documents, a search warrant approved by a federal court."

Opinion | What the Redacted Affidavit Shows in the Trump Mar-a-Lago Case - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Game, set, match.


Jaytee said:

 You are not in India.

?


What goes unsaid about this alleged standing declassification order is that if it were actually true (which I don't for a second believe that it is if it is even possible), it would be beyond reckless.  He has Top Secret/Secured Compartmented Information and Special Access Program material that he declassifies it because he wants to look at it while he takes a dump?  Are they really saying that this material is appropriate for the front page of the New York Times?  


here's a good overview of last night's DOJ filing. read the whole thread.


PVW said:

Jaytee said:

 You are not in India.

?

Seriously, wtf? He’s from Long Island.


Trump is like your teenager with a messy room, if your teenager had access to country's most Top Secret information. 


ridski said:

PVW said:

Jaytee said:

 You are not in India.

?

Seriously, wtf? He’s from Long Island.

It still works with, "You're not in Long Island, keep your stupidity in check".


ridski said:

Seriously, wtf? He’s from Long Island.

there’s also a woman from Long Island who speaks with dead people… Patel from Long Island thinking trumpenstein can literally declassify documents…. That’s the kinda crap politicians in India say and do. Remember Modi kissing Trumpenstein’s sun starved **** and a cricket stadium filled with teary eyed faithful? Wtf is right!


Jaytee said:

there’s also a woman from Long Island who speaks with dead people… Patel from Long Island thinking trumpenstein can literally declassify documents…. That’s the kinda crap politicians in India say and do. Remember Modi kissing Trumpenstein’s sun starved **** and a cricket stadium filled with teary eyed faithful? Wtf is right!

And Trump is the kinda crap politician Americans say and do. No need to slip in Trumpism ourselves here. Trump blames American judges of being Mexican if he doesn't like their judgements, talks about how some countries like Norway should send more immigrants but others are s-hole countries... I don't see why we should follow suit and draw any connection between Patel's work on behalf of such a sick man and his heritage.


I'm not convinced he'll ever actually get his, but if he does, and it's not due to tax shenanigans (my sentimental favorite route), being taken down by librarians/archivists fighting to protect national security would be just fine.



PVW said:

Jaytee said:

there’s also a woman from Long Island who speaks with dead people… Patel from Long Island thinking trumpenstein can literally declassify documents…. That’s the kinda crap politicians in India say and do. Remember Modi kissing Trumpenstein’s sun starved **** and a cricket stadium filled with teary eyed faithful? Wtf is right!

And Trump is the kinda crap politician Americans say and do. No need to slip in Trumpism ourselves here. Trump blames American judges of being Mexican if he doesn't like their judgements, talks about how some countries like Norway should send more immigrants but others are s-hole countries... I don't see why we should follow suit and draw any connection between Patel's work on behalf of such a sick man and his heritage.

It appears that DJT learned a lot of his strategies, methods and values from Roy Cohn.  Roy Cohn ("RC") was famous for a lot of things.  AFAIK, almost none of the things that RC was famous for are admired by me.  Below is a RC quote that could have just as easily been uttered by DJT last week.

PS  I am not defending DJT.  Rather, I am trying to understand how he became the person that he is today.

PPS Clearly, RC's quote is at a minimum corrosive to the rule of law.  Additionally, I would be hard-pressed to find a better example than RC's quote of a person applying the principle: "the ends justify the means."


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