Facts Matter
While words like "slightly" are indeed subjective, if you go to the village facts website, and go to the link that answers questions about the development proposal, you will find that the actual heights of the proposed building are outlined in a pretty fair amount of detail. No one is trying to obscure those points. it explicitly states that the range of height is from 39' 6' to 52'6", depending upon which corner of the building you're referencing. I would say that is more truthful than those who continually refer only to the side of the building that is the highest above finished grade.
http://villagefacts.org/fact-sheet-2/
author said:
Well, I am all for freedom of speech and dissemination of ideas, but it seems to me that this was the type of effort that would have been needed many months ago.
We are at the point where citizen input just does not count. The courts are not going to be looking at pictures or asking any questions germane to the points being raised now
Like I said..... there is no harm to be done but anything having to do with the proposed building
is out of the hands of the citizenry......Unless there are more court suits in the works.
Why. There was an open process. It's only been relatively recent that Fred, Inda, you and others have started disseminating hysteria and misinformation (e.g. 60 feet, Kings opposition, chain stores). The Town Council has been doing a fine job.
- You ask how many people will benefit from the Post House development. The answer is that everyone in Maplewood and everyone who goes into the village will benefit. The answer is thousands.
author said:
Steve said:You missed the jokes about a place for the militia to drill?
author said:And we're back to the "need" for a nice park to serve as Author's backyard. What happened to selling it for too little money and giving too much away in the PILOT? A "Village Green" would result in the expenditure of money without any revenue being generated.
Oh sure.........The TC would have changed its mind and we would now be building a nice Village Green to serve us all......Its all the fault of Engage and OhNO that the Kings Folly building is still being planned.
And the rest of Maplewood Township would have the use of a Village Green.
How many people in the Township would benefit by an oversized apartment building.
Do you think you will ever see the inside of one? You might be able to sneak into the underground parking lot though.
author said:
Steve said:You missed the jokes about a place for the militia to drill?
author said:And we're back to the "need" for a nice park to serve as Author's backyard. What happened to selling it for too little money and giving too much away in the PILOT? A "Village Green" would result in the expenditure of money without any revenue being generated.
Oh sure.........The TC would have changed its mind and we would now be building a nice Village Green to serve us all......Its all the fault of Engage and OhNO that the Kings Folly building is still being planned.
And the rest of Maplewood Township would have the use of a Village Green.
How many people in the Township would benefit by an oversized apartment building.
Do you think you will ever see the inside of one? You might be able to sneak into the underground parking lot though.
Everyone will benefit including the town merchants. It's just you that will suffer.
Everyone who shops at the five stores.
author said:
Steve said:You missed the jokes about a place for the militia to drill?
author said:And we're back to the "need" for a nice park to serve as Author's backyard. What happened to selling it for too little money and giving too much away in the PILOT? A "Village Green" would result in the expenditure of money without any revenue being generated.
Oh sure.........The TC would have changed its mind and we would now be building a nice Village Green to serve us all......Its all the fault of Engage and OhNO that the Kings Folly building is still being planned.
And the rest of Maplewood Township would have the use of a Village Green.
How many people in the Township would benefit by an oversized apartment building.
Do you think you will ever see the inside of one? You might be able to sneak into the underground parking lot though.
Who will benefit ? Everyone who walks and drives in Maplewood and takes advantage of the new traffic pattern, everyone who parks in the upgraded parking lots, everyone who patronizes 5 new businesses, every business in Maplewood who will have new customers brought in by the new businesses and better traffic flow and new residents, every commuter who will have improved access to both sides of the train tracks. every business and many residents close to town who will no longer have sewer back ups, dozens of Maplewoodians who will have jobs created by the new businesses, the 30 or so new residents of the building who will now have housing options that were previously unavailable, everyone for years to come who will enjoy the new public plaza, every taxpayer in Maplewood and last but not least everyone for whom the sight of the post office building will become a distant memory.
To put it differently, I don't personally benefit from the apartment building where Author lives, so perhaps we should repurpose that building. And nobody besides my family and me benefits from my house, so let's get rid of it.
Woot said:
author said:Why. There was an open process. It's only been relatively recent that Fred, Inda, you and others have started disseminating hysteria and misinformation (e.g. 60 feet, Kings opposition, chain stores). The Town Council has been doing a fine job.
Well, I am all for freedom of speech and dissemination of ideas, but it seems to me that this was the type of effort that would have been needed many months ago.
We are at the point where citizen input just does not count. The courts are not going to be looking at pictures or asking any questions germane to the points being raised now
Like I said..... there is no harm to be done but anything having to do with the proposed building
is out of the hands of the citizenry......Unless there are more court suits in the works.
And the Township which has been doing such a fine job is now in court why?
Not sure what Kings opposition means unless you are going way back
60 feet......not quite, the builder tried to exceed the specs for the building and submitted plans that called for it to be 59 and a half feet in height.
So tell me what Mom and Pop stores can plan two years in advance to occupy the five retail stores which surely will have high rentals based on the other rentals we see on Maplewood Ave.....i.e. Village Coffee andthe Japanese Restaurant both currently paying $9, 500.00 a month.
Highland Place , when it was there paying $12,500.00 a month.
We provide facts. We are not a bunch of cheerleaders.
Because the Village Creepers don't understand that providing input to the T.C. doesn't mean that they will get their way.
This is beyond stupid. Stop posting make-believe nonsense or lies. Rents are high because there is a limited supply. Increase supply and rents drop. Economics 101.
You have been warned. The BS is stopping on this issue.
author said:
Woot said:And the Township which has been doing such a fine job is now in court why?
author said:Why. There was an open process. It's only been relatively recent that Fred, Inda, you and others have started disseminating hysteria and misinformation (e.g. 60 feet, Kings opposition, chain stores). The Town Council has been doing a fine job.
Well, I am all for freedom of speech and dissemination of ideas, but it seems to me that this was the type of effort that would have been needed many months ago.
We are at the point where citizen input just does not count. The courts are not going to be looking at pictures or asking any questions germane to the points being raised now
Like I said..... there is no harm to be done but anything having to do with the proposed building
is out of the hands of the citizenry......Unless there are more court suits in the works.
Not sure what Kings opposition means unless you are going way back
60 feet......not quite, the builder tried to exceed the specs for the building and submitted plans that called for it to be 59 and a half feet in height.
So tell me what Mom and Pop stores can plan two years in advance to occupy the five retail stores which surely will have high rentals based on the other rentals we see on Maplewood Ave.....i.e. Village Coffee andthe Japanese Restaurant both currently paying $9, 500.00 a month.
Highland Place , when it was there paying $12,500.00 a month.
We provide facts. We are not a bunch of cheerleaders.
author said:
And the Township which has been doing such a fine job is now in court why?
Because an organization that at the time had no more than three members filed a law suit. Duh!
I can file a law suit against the Township or against you or against MOL for allowing you to post tomorrow. (Well, Monday when the Courts open). Does that mean that any of those are doing anything wrong?
Returning the site to the tax rolls with a property that will pay a significant amount of taxes even with a 5 year PILOT benefits every taxpayer. There is nothing else you could do with the property that would benefit the average homeowner on Jacoby Street.
And the Township which has been doing such a fine job is now in court why?
author said:
Because some nasty people filed a lawsuit. The merits and the outcome remain to be seen, so this is meaningless.
And because those same lawsuit filers don't seem to fully understand the Redevelopment Plan process.
mjh said:
Because some nasty people filed a lawsuit. The merits and the outcome remain to be seen, so this is meaningless.And the Township which has been doing such a fine job is now in court why?
author said:
dave said:
This is beyond stupid. Stop posting make-believe nonsense or lies. Rents are high because there is a limited supply. Increase supply and rents drop. Economics 101.
You have been warned. The BS is stopping on this issue.
Dave,
Please stick with the Village Creepers alternative reality narrative which is that increased supply increases costs.
CONFUSED said:Returning the site to the tax rolls...
? The only plans for a non-fully taxed status downtown have been from Vic/Dave and the lackeys in here, first for The Womans' Club and now the PILOT for the Post House.
You keep claiming that having to pay high rents and plan two years ahead will prevent Mom and Pop stores from moving to the Post House.
Exactly where did you get the two year requirement. Can you name any other development by the same developers that had a two year advance requirement and stop with the high rents already. More supply will not increase the rent. Lots of Mom and Pop stores manage the high rents. otherwise there would be many vacancies downtown.
Keep making things up - no one believes you any more.
author said:
Woot said:And the Township which has been doing such a fine job is now in court why?
author said:Why. There was an open process. It's only been relatively recent that Fred, Inda, you and others have started disseminating hysteria and misinformation (e.g. 60 feet, Kings opposition, chain stores). The Town Council has been doing a fine job.
Well, I am all for freedom of speech and dissemination of ideas, but it seems to me that this was the type of effort that would have been needed many months ago.
We are at the point where citizen input just does not count. The courts are not going to be looking at pictures or asking any questions germane to the points being raised now
Like I said..... there is no harm to be done but anything having to do with the proposed building
is out of the hands of the citizenry......Unless there are more court suits in the works.
Not sure what Kings opposition means unless you are going way back
60 feet......not quite, the builder tried to exceed the specs for the building and submitted plans that called for it to be 59 and a half feet in height.
So tell me what Mom and Pop stores can plan two years in advance to occupy the five retail stores which surely will have high rentals based on the other rentals we see on Maplewood Ave.....i.e. Village Coffee andthe Japanese Restaurant both currently paying $9, 500.00 a month.
Highland Place , when it was there paying $12,500.00 a month.
We provide facts. We are not a bunch of cheerleaders.
tjohn said:
To put it differently, I don't personally benefit from the apartment building where Author lives, so perhaps we should repurpose that building. And nobody besides my family and me benefits from my house, so let's get rid of it.
Sorry, that's not a great parallel or logical argument - the building where author lives is private property as is your lovely house. The discussion is what to do with PUBLIC property, that which belongs to all of us, the taxpayers of this town.
the "slightly" issue - Paul et al, did you measure the building at the corner of Baker? What are the dimensions? can you substantiate your statements?
Further, even if they were found to be exactly the same length, the scale and mass matter. The building at the corner of Baker street is only 2 stories, so it's impact on the street wall is not comparable to that which is proposed. The proposed building will be 4 stories as visible from the Stationers, the Village Coffee Shop, from Leo's Nails...and all the examples you show...it will only appear as 3 stories from Ricalton Square, Kings and above.
Did you measure the Theater building and the others cited on your website as well? what are those dimensions?
And re the heights and representation - the difference in height between the proposed building (per last renderings) and Village Coffee building is 18 feet.
Real materials? cast stone is not the same as actual stone. As for sidewalk pavers, the site plan issued in April calls out stamped concrete to look like pavers - even the dimensions shown are different than the brick pavers in town.
Art Deco motifs to match the village? where?...there are a few buildings in town that have some Art Nouveaux details, but not Art Deco - not the same. So again, where?
Suggest that people who don't like cast stone and formed concrete find a time machine and go back 100 years. This is the 21st Century. Some things are better - most things. Some things are not, for example, affordable craftsmen.
I think that people understand the distinction. For many, given that there is significant public land nearby, there doesn't seem to be a need for a public parcel right in the middle of the village, which primarily is a business district.
IndaSechzer said:
tjohn said:Sorry, that's not a great parallel or logical argument - the building where author lives is private property as is your lovely house. The discussion is what to do with PUBLIC property, that which belongs to all of us, the taxpayers of this town.
To put it differently, I don't personally benefit from the apartment building where Author lives, so perhaps we should repurpose that building. And nobody besides my family and me benefits from my house, so let's get rid of it.
sarahzm said:
Who will benefit ? Everyone who walks and drives in Maplewood and takes advantage of the new traffic pattern, everyone who parks in the upgraded parking lots, everyone who patronizes 5 new businesses, every business in Maplewood who will have new customers brought in by the new businesses and better traffic flow and new residents, every commuter who will have improved access to both sides of the train tracks. every business and many residents close to town who will no longer have sewer back ups, dozens of Maplewoodians who will have jobs created by the new businesses, the 30 or so new residents of the building who will now have housing options that were previously unavailable, everyone for years to come who will enjoy the new public plaza, every taxpayer in Maplewood and last but not least everyone for whom the sight of the post office building will become a distant memory.
Well, yes. But who ELSE will?
RobB said:
Coneheads said:There's a PILOT?
CONFUSED said:? The only plans for a non-fully taxed status downtown have been from Vic/Dave and the lackeys in here, first for The Womans' Club and now the PILOT for the Post House.Returning the site to the tax rolls...
Yep! It's better than Harrison Ford but not as good as Han Solo
Coneheads said:
CONFUSED said:? The only plans for a non-fully taxed status downtown have been from Vic/Dave and the lackeys in here, first for The Womans' Club and now the PILOT for the Post House.Returning the site to the tax rolls...
Stop calling names.
Are you, Inda and Author "lackeys" of Boss Profeta?
There is a difference of opinion.
sarahzm said:
You keep claiming that having to pay high rents and plan two years ahead will prevent Mom and Pop stores from moving to the Post House.
Exactly where did you get the two year requirement. Can you name any other development by the same developers that had a two year advance requirement and stop with the high rents already. More supply will not increase the rent. Lots of Mom and Pop stores manage the high rents. otherwise there would be many vacancies downtown.
Keep making things up - no one believes you any more.
author said:
Woot said:And the Township which has been doing such a fine job is now in court why?
author said:Why. There was an open process. It's only been relatively recent that Fred, Inda, you and others have started disseminating hysteria and misinformation (e.g. 60 feet, Kings opposition, chain stores). The Town Council has been doing a fine job.
Well, I am all for freedom of speech and dissemination of ideas, but it seems to me that this was the type of effort that would have been needed many months ago.
We are at the point where citizen input just does not count. The courts are not going to be looking at pictures or asking any questions germane to the points being raised now
Like I said..... there is no harm to be done but anything having to do with the proposed building
is out of the hands of the citizenry......Unless there are more court suits in the works.
Not sure what Kings opposition means unless you are going way back
60 feet......not quite, the builder tried to exceed the specs for the building and submitted plans that called for it to be 59 and a half feet in height.
So tell me what Mom and Pop stores can plan two years in advance to occupy the five retail stores which surely will have high rentals based on the other rentals we see on Maplewood Ave.....i.e. Village Coffee andthe Japanese Restaurant both currently paying $9, 500.00 a month.
Highland Place , when it was there paying $12,500.00 a month.
We provide facts. We are not a bunch of cheerleaders.
So Sarah..........if the issue becomes who believes me.......you spent two years telling us how very vital it is that Kings be allowed to re locate across the street from where they are now. Want to tell us that again?
You claim also that a Village Green is useless because of the presence of Memorial Park. Try buying a cup of coffee at let's say t he Maple Leaf. Then taking that coffee and crossing Maplewood Ave.........under the rail road tracks.......crossing Dunnel Road and finding one of the three benches located at the top of the rise of the hill. If that is convenient to you there is not much more to say.
Also repeated frequently by you that there is a Recreation Department building located right there. Yes there is and for the past two years the people of Maplewood Township can only look at it and are not permitted its use. It is now under long term lease to the YMCA and even at night town residents are not allowed entry.
I did miss your usual pat on the back you give yourself because everyone is so impressed by the Gospel according to Sarah. Although I think it is fascinating that in a town which already has something like 70 store fronts any one thinks an additional 5 will will bring hordes of shoppers descending on Maplewood Village. Again, ask the current store owners how thrilled they are. Ask yourself why two of them
allowed us the use of their stores for our meetings. Ask and you will get an answer.
And finally, one more time Village Greens. I have personal experience with two of them in different towns.
They are a pleasure.
And lo and behold, you'll have one in Ricalton.
ETA: I should have said "still have one".
But it's 100 more feet more for him to walk to...across the King's loading dock, I mean the entrance to the Ricalton parking lot.
ctrzaska said:
And lo and behold, you'll have one in Ricalton.
ETA: I should have said "still have one".
author said:Oh cat fat.
Sorry for the thread drift, but can someone explain this to me? Is this a new expletive that I don't know about? Like a new version of "horse hockey"?
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The more information shared in good faith, the better, so thank you. Two brief observations: First, a term like "slightly," leaned on twice in the VillageFacts description of the Post House's dimensions, is more subjective than factual. The facade facing Village Coffee would be at least 11 feet taller -- 25 percent or more -- depending on the accuracy of the Village Coffee measurement and the grading. That may be slightly taller to some, but I wouldn't argue if someone disagreed.
Second, while the expertise of Mr. Pepe and tjohn's testimonial deserve serious consideration, I see an assertion like "I can't conceive of" not as an expression of the full, finite extent of knowledge but rather, in decisions of lasting importance, as an invitation to get help exploring other possible directions. Personally, I still regret the fact the TC saw it otherwise.