Credit to our Right-Wingnuts
terp said:
You mean like backing all thinking into the vaccines and mask mandates cure all? That is fun, because you can poke fun at red states when spikes happen there.
The fact is that none of these measures worked as we were told.
We were never told the vaccines would be 100% effective. But for people who vaccinated and followed the guide, the combination was very effective at avoiding illness. And highly effective st avoiding serious illness.
ml1 said:
We were never told the vaccines would be 100% effective. But for people who vaccinated and followed the guide, the combination was very effective at avoiding illness. And highly effective st avoiding serious illness.
Seems to come down to who exactly the "they" are that was doing the telling. As I've noted before on this topic, one takeaway here is that a lot of people should re-evaluate their sources of information.
tjohn said:
terp said:
You mean like backing all thinking into the vaccines and mask mandates cure all? That is fun, because you can poke fun at red states when spikes happen there.
The fact is that none of these measures worked as we were told.
Those people who followed the science and got vaccinated prevented the Delta and Omicron spikes from being much, much worse.
Exactly. The people who followed the public health advice are the ones who helped the economy recover. The ones who kicked and screamed and cheated and supported rejection of the vaccines prolonged the damage.
ml1 said:
terp said:
You mean like backing all thinking into the vaccines and mask mandates cure all? That is fun, because you can poke fun at red states when spikes happen there.
The fact is that none of these measures worked as we were told.
We were never told the vaccines would be 100% effective. But for people who vaccinated and followed the guide, the combination was very effective at avoiding illness. And highly effective st avoiding serious illness.
I have to admit though that I was taken by surprise to learn that they didn't do much to stop transmission - which is what we expect from our other vaccines. This was not made clear at all during the early stages of the roll-out.
drummerboy said:
I have to admit though that I was taken by surprise to learn that they didn't do much to stop transmission - which is what we expect from our other vaccines. This was not made clear at all during the early stages of the roll-out.
It was disappointing, and maybe surprising in the context of how incredibly effective the vaccines turned out to be, but not surprising in the broader context of how vaccines work.
Here's an excerpt from a July 2020 article, when we hoped for but had no assurances of effective covid vaccines:
Vaccine-induced immunity, though, tends to be weaker than immunity that arises after an infection. Vaccines are typically given as a shot straight into a muscle. Once your body recognizes the foreign invader, it mounts an immune response by, for example, producing long-lasting antibodies that circulate in the blood.
But respiratory viruses don’t normally fling themselves into muscle. They infect respiratory systems, after all, and they usually sneak in through the mucous membranes of the nose and throat. Although vaccine shots induce antibodies in the blood, they don’t induce many in the mucous membranes, meaning they’re unlikely to prevent the virus from entering the body. But they could still protect tissues deeper in the body such as the lungs, thus keeping an infection from getting worse. “The primary benefit of vaccination will be to prevent severe disease,” says Subbarao. A COVID-19 vaccine is unlikely to achieve what scientists call “sterilizing immunity,” which prevents disease altogether.
(A Vaccine Reality Check, Sarah Zhang, The Atlantic July 24, 2020)
When the vaccines were approved and rolled out, the Moderna and Pfizer ones turned out to also be really good at reducing transmission, which was a fantastic bonus. Then the Delta variant arrived. The vaccines do still seem to reduce transmission, but nowhere near as effectively as against the original covid strain -- but still do a very good job reducing death and serious illness. At least, that's what "they" have been telling me -- I gather that other "theys" have been selling a very different story. I'm not sure why, in light of that, people are still listening to those other "they"s.
As usual, science doesn't stand a chance against Twitter simplifications.
PVW said:
drummerboy said:
I have to admit though that I was taken by surprise to learn that they didn't do much to stop transmission - which is what we expect from our other vaccines. This was not made clear at all during the early stages of the roll-out.
It was disappointing, and maybe surprising in the context of how incredibly effective the vaccines turned out to be, but not surprising in the broader context of how vaccines work.
Here's an excerpt from a July 2020 article, when we hoped for but had no assurances of effective covid vaccines:
Vaccine-induced immunity, though, tends to be weaker than immunity that arises after an infection. Vaccines are typically given as a shot straight into a muscle. Once your body recognizes the foreign invader, it mounts an immune response by, for example, producing long-lasting antibodies that circulate in the blood.
But respiratory viruses don’t normally fling themselves into muscle. They infect respiratory systems, after all, and they usually sneak in through the mucous membranes of the nose and throat. Although vaccine shots induce antibodies in the blood, they don’t induce many in the mucous membranes, meaning they’re unlikely to prevent the virus from entering the body. But they could still protect tissues deeper in the body such as the lungs, thus keeping an infection from getting worse. “The primary benefit of vaccination will be to prevent severe disease,” says Subbarao. A COVID-19 vaccine is unlikely to achieve what scientists call “sterilizing immunity,” which prevents disease altogether.(A Vaccine Reality Check, Sarah Zhang, The Atlantic July 24, 2020)
When the vaccines were approved and rolled out, the Moderna and Pfizer ones turned out to also be really good at reducing transmission, which was a fantastic bonus. Then the Delta variant arrived. The vaccines do still seem to reduce transmission, but nowhere near as effectively as against the original covid strain -- but still do a very good job reducing death and serious illness. At least, that's what "they" have been telling me -- I gather that other "theys" have been selling a very different story. I'm not sure why, in light of that, people are still listening to those other "they"s.
I don't remember where I read this, but an important question about this is -- if a vaccinated person is "infected" with COVID in the sense of it being present in the nasal passages, and they test positive, but they don't get symptoms, is that of concern? If 100% of eligible people had become vaccinated, would it be concerning if many people encountered the virus, it resided in their bodies for a short term before their immune system took care of it, but they never got sick?
I think the answer to that would be no, it wouldn't be particularly concerning if the vast majority of people were suffering only very mild or no symptoms at all from the virus. Under those circumstances COVID would be something we'd live with, the way we live with the common cold.
ml1 said:
I don't remember where I read this, but an important question about this is -- if a vaccinated person is "infected" with COVID in the sense of it being present in the nasal passages, and they test positive, but they don't get symptoms, is that of concern? If 100% of eligible people had become vaccinated, would it be concerning if many people encountered the virus, it resided in their bodies for a short term before their immune system took care of it, but they never got sick?
I think the answer to that would be no, it wouldn't be particularly concerning if the vast majority of people were suffering only very mild or no symptoms at all from the virus. Under those circumstances COVID would be something we'd live with, the way we live with the common cold.
"A koan for pandemic times: If a microbe silently and inconsequentially copies itself in a tissue, and the body doesn’t notice, did it actually infect?"
(We’re Asking the Impossible of Vaccines, Katherine J Wu, The Atlantic, Sept 9 2021)
Anyway, I feel that a lot of this is material that's all been hashed and rehashed already. I don't have anything else to add, really. If people are still running around screaming that they've been misled about this pandemic, at this point either they wanted to be misled and so have been, and continue to, seek out sources that will mislead them, or they're not actually particularly interested in the pandemic per se and just using it as a handy axe grinder for whatever other pet issues they actually care about.
On the upside, the small group of needlephobes that turned out for the Flu Trux Klan in Edmonton on Saturday was dwarfed by the crowds who lined up to show their support for Ukrainian sovereignty on Sunday.
Perhaps the brave example of Ukrainians fighting ACTUAL tyranny will be enough to finally silence these sniveling, cowardly adult infants.
I think there are also more than a few people who get really bent out of shape when it's suggested that refusing a COVID vaccination is a really stupid, irrational, and illogical choice for the vast, vast majority of adults. And it is. People are free to make a lot of stupid choices. You want to piss into the wind, eat food from your fridge that's so old you can't identify it, drink your urine as COVID prevention, leave a loaded gun on your nightstand, you're free to do so. But those are all dumb choices, so don't get pissy if someone points it out.
ml1 said:
I think there are also more than a few people who get really bent out of shape when it's suggested that refusing a COVID vaccination is a really stupid, irrational, and illogical choice for the vast, vast majority of adults. And it is. People are free to make a lot of stupid choices. You want to piss into the wind, eat food from your fridge that's so old you can't identify it, drink your urine as COVID prevention, leave a loaded gun on your nightstand, you're free to do so. But those are all dumb choices, so don't get pissy if someone points it out.
Would it surprise you that our Putin-excusing mutual friend also excuses the antivaxxers and antimask protesters like the truckers?
nohero said:
ml1 said:
I think there are also more than a few people who get really bent out of shape when it's suggested that refusing a COVID vaccination is a really stupid, irrational, and illogical choice for the vast, vast majority of adults. And it is. People are free to make a lot of stupid choices. You want to piss into the wind, eat food from your fridge that's so old you can't identify it, drink your urine as COVID prevention, leave a loaded gun on your nightstand, you're free to do so. But those are all dumb choices, so don't get pissy if someone points it out.
Would it surprise you that our Putin-excusing mutual friend also excuses the antivaxxers and antimask protesters like the truckers?
but somehow protests against police violence are beyond the pale.
Not sure why there would be confusion.
The mother of all COVID montages, "public health expert" edition. h/t @KanekoaThaGreat pic.twitter.com/y7yvUQ7QZW
— Jordan Schachtel @ dossier.substack.com (@JordanSchachtel) December 18, 2021
This guy fabricated quite a bit considering nobody ever said this kind of thing.
Whoever did this deserves an award.
— Rising serpent
pic.twitter.com/cJFcgpB9Y3
@terp - Thanks for continuing your own confusion.
I'm sorry you are unable to read a graph because the unvax vs. vax vs. booster lines from Jan/Feb clearly shows that the vaccination works very well, even against a slightly different target.
PVW said:
ml1 said:
We were never told the vaccines would be 100% effective. But for people who vaccinated and followed the guide, the combination was very effective at avoiding illness. And highly effective st avoiding serious illness.
Seems to come down to who exactly the "they" are that was doing the telling. As I've noted before on this topic, one takeaway here is that a lot of people should re-evaluate their sources of information.
I wish I had listened to you before swallowing a montage of headlines in a tweet.
Is this where we were discussing the Canadian protests? And I linked, to compare, to the NZ protests outside their Parliament?
I’ll continue that discussion here - only because I don’t want post bits & links all over the place. Some shocking events (for Kiwis and us) over the past couple of days:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/02/police-move-to-clear-new-zealand-protests-as-maori-king-calls-for-end-to-occupation
[do you have LPG over there? Bottles of gas for BBQs, for kitchen stoves etc and for some cars?]
I’m kinda caught by the mental pictures of people using fire extinguishers as weapons, but then again, yuk! (And other more powerful words) And burning/destroying a kids’ playground… This isn’t us. This destruction is imported, it’s just horrible.
DaveSchmidt said:
PVW said:
ml1 said:
We were never told the vaccines would be 100% effective. But for people who vaccinated and followed the guide, the combination was very effective at avoiding illness. And highly effective st avoiding serious illness.
Seems to come down to who exactly the "they" are that was doing the telling. As I've noted before on this topic, one takeaway here is that a lot of people should re-evaluate their sources of information.
I wish I had listened to you before swallowing a montage of headlines in a tweet.
And if you watched the video, the sources making the claims that ml1 says were never made include the POTUS, the lead advisor to the president on health matters and the head of the NIAID(AKA Dr Truth Science), the head of the CDC & the entire corporate press. You may also remember that dissenting opinions were in fact censored.
I think what you may be suffering from is cognitive dissonance. While you were under the impression that you were "Following the Science (tm)" the truth is that you were being led around by the nose by unelected beaurocrats.
But as the president said last night: You can't build a wall that can stop a vaccine.
terp said:
DaveSchmidt said:
PVW said:
ml1 said:
We were never told the vaccines would be 100% effective. But for people who vaccinated and followed the guide, the combination was very effective at avoiding illness. And highly effective st avoiding serious illness.
Seems to come down to who exactly the "they" are that was doing the telling. As I've noted before on this topic, one takeaway here is that a lot of people should re-evaluate their sources of information.
I wish I had listened to you before swallowing a montage of headlines in a tweet.
And if you watched the video, the sources making the claims that ml1 says were never made include the POTUS, the lead advisor to the president on health matters and the head of the NIAID(AKA Dr Truth Science), the head of the CDC & the entire corporate press. You may also remember that dissenting opinions were in fact censored.
I think what you may be suffering from is cognitive dissonance. While you were under the impression that you were "Following the Science (tm)" the truth is that you were being led around by the nose by unelected beaurocrats.
But as the president said last night: You can't build a wall that can stop a vaccine.
That video is largely horsesh!t, as most of the claims were based on what was best known at the time.
A much more convincing video, which does not exist, would show, in real time, someone disputing, with evidence, that those claims were wrong. (whew, commas)
i.e. Fauci says something on 4/1/20 and then someone shows he's wrong on 4/2/20. Doesn't exist cause it didn't happen.
People are so easily duped.
drummerboy said:
That video is largely horsesh!t, as most of the claims were based on what was best known at the time.
A much more convincing video, which does not exist, would show, in real time, someone disputing, with evidence, that those claims were wrong. (whew, commas)
i.e. Fauci says something on 4/1/20 and then someone shows he's wrong on 4/2/20. Doesn't exist cause it didn't happen.
People are so easily duped.
I'm also a dope for once again writing something imprecisely. I meant we were never told the vaccines were 100% effective in preventing infections. They are virtually 100% effective in preventing COVID fatalities. if you consider fewer than one death in 100,000 boosted people to be "virtually 100%" of course. Which a reasonable person probably does. And those headlines went by awfully fast (typically a sign of dishonesty. Why not give us a chance to read the subhead?). If for example those articles said 100% effective in preventing deaths among teens in the trial, the headlines would likely have been 100% true.
I'm suspicious of anyone who edits Fauci's sentence right after he says "virtually 100% efficacious." At what? If he said "preventing infection" after that, why was it cut? A smart person's BS detector should have gone to 11 after seeing that.
DaveSchmidt said:
I wish I had listened to you before swallowing a montage of headlines in a tweet.
the tweet did help me understand how people can be confused about vaccinations if that's what they use as a news source.
ml1 said:
DaveSchmidt said:
I wish I had listened to you before swallowing a montage of headlines in a tweet.
the tweet did help me understand how people can be confused about vaccinations if that's what they use as a news source.
It's never going to end, some people have amnesia about the debunking of anti-vax claims.
terp said:
And if you watched the video, the sources making the claims that ml1 says were never made include the POTUS, the lead advisor to the president on health matters and the head of the NIAID(AKA Dr Truth Science), the head of the CDC & the entire corporate press.
I watched most of the video. I even paused it here and there to look up the stories behind the “100%” headlines and check out the context.
All I caught Fauci saying were variations of “highly effective,” with one “95 percent” when talking about protection against serious illness. But they went by fast and weren’t intended to be dwelled on, so I may have missed something.
DaveSchmidt said:
I watched most of the video. I even paused it here and there to look up the stories behind the “100%” headlines and check out the context.
All I caught Fauci saying were variations of “highly effective,” with one “95 percent” when talking about protection against serious illness. But they went by fast and weren’t intended to be dwelled on, so I may have missed something.
you really are a boring sod…facts are stubborn and boring things to the people living in a parallel universe…and you just keep coming into their rooms at sunrise with your cheerful voice whispering..” it’s time to wake up little Johnny “
ml1 said:
the tweet did help me understand how people can be confused about vaccinations if that's what they use as a news source.
Yes, terp does seem pretty insistent on proving my point about choosing better news sources, doesn't he? Headline mashups in twitter videos are a poor source of information.
joanne said:
Is this where we were discussing the Canadian protests? And I linked, to compare, to the NZ protests outside their Parliament?
Terp has his own agenda and he will pursue it anywhere, no matter how inappropriate or off topic.
joanne said:
Is this where we were discussing the Canadian protests? And I linked, to compare, to the NZ protests outside their Parliament?
I’ll continue that discussion here - only because I don’t want post bits & links all over the place. Some shocking events (for Kiwis and us) over the past couple of days:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/02/police-move-to-clear-new-zealand-protests-as-maori-king-calls-for-end-to-occupation
[do you have LPG over there? Bottles of gas for BBQs, for kitchen stoves etc and for some cars?]
I’m kinda caught by the mental pictures of people using fire extinguishers as weapons, but then again, yuk! (And other more powerful words) And burning/destroying a kids’ playground… This isn’t us. This destruction is imported, it’s just horrible.
I was a bit confused by the Maori angle in that story. Not sure how much insight you have on that on your end?
Also, hope you're doing all right with all the flooding!
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Those people who followed the science and got vaccinated prevented the Delta and Omicron spikes from being much, much worse.