Bill Browder and the Magnitsky Act. Humanitarian Act or Big Scam?
jamie said:
Why doesn't Komisar or you mention Russia abusing Interpol to try and arrest Browder? Do you think he would get proper justice in a Russian court?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-browder/russia-asks-interpol-to-arrest-kremlin-critic-bill-browder-again-letter-idUSKCN1RL0PY
Are you in favor of extraditing him to Russia?
She has talked about this in the past--as has Krainer--it's in his book and Browder's book is called "Red Notice." I do think he got proper justice in the Russian court. I think he's a crook. I think he's taking advantage of anti-Russian disinformation - just as strong here as in the UK with the Integrity INitiative. I hope, somehow, that they are able to finally get him with this case, but I would not hold my breath.
jamie said:
ok, are you in favor of extraditing him to Russia?
Absolutely. That's exactly where he should go. He lied about his story and at this point the Russians sound honest next to him.
OMG - I honestly didn’t think even you would admit to that. Wow How about McFaul? You’re a great asset for Vlad.
What court cases in Russia that have been tried are closest to what you’re calling for? Do you know of any?
jamie said:
OMG - I honestly didn’t think even you would admit to that. Wow How about McFaul? You’re a great asset for Vlad.
What court cases in Russia that have been tried are closest to what you’re calling for? Do you know of any?
McFaul knows Browder is a fake, but he goes along for whatever it does for him. Anyway, I'm only interested in Browder being sent back to where he escaped justice. I will try to find that court ruling--it's somewhere in this thread. We will see how well your search works. 
Here is the original Russian verdict from 2013. By the way, fun fact: Bill Browder was born in New Jersey in 1964.
Why such a target on Browder- surely there’s one or two other people financially ripping off the Russian people.
nan said:
Here is the original Russian verdict from 2013. By the way, fun fact: Bill Browder was born in New Jersey in 1964.
https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/New_York_Southern_District_Court/1--13-cv-06326/United_States_of_America_v._Prevezon_Holdings_Ltd._et_al/731/6/
I wasn't asking about Browder verdicts. Show me someone with similar crimes that were brought to justice in Russia.
Tell me which of the oligarchs has been most unfairly targeted by the Magnitsky act? Who do you think should be de-listed from the blacklist the most? This is essentially who you are fighting for.
jamie said:
nan said:I wasn't asking about Browder verdicts. Show me someone with similar crimes that were brought to justice in Russia.
Here is the original Russian verdict from 2013. By the way, fun fact: Bill Browder was born in New Jersey in 1964.
https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/New_York_Southern_District_Court/1--13-cv-06326/United_States_of_America_v._Prevezon_Holdings_Ltd._et_al/731/6/
Tell me which of the oligarchs has been most unfairly targeted by the Magnitsky act? Who do you think should be de-listed from the blacklist the most? This is essentially who you are fighting for.
The people on the Magnitsky Act list were put there without a trial or chance to defend themselves. That's not how it should be done.
Anyway, I also have this MLAT response from the Russian Federation. It is in Russian followed by the translation: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DcWO9_zbO9qfnPsqhP75RL9zEfZfseCM/view
nan - you didn't answer my question - which oligarch do you wish to have access to his money the most?
Not sure what the MLAT is for in response to any of my questions - please provide context for it.
I was looking for other cases - not Browder related.
Have you and/or Lucy looked into where/how these oligarchs have acquired their wealth? Or again - is all of your focus on Browder?
This obsession is pretty sad - when it's a drop in the buckets in regards to who actually is ripping off the country. But Putin controls the media - so you'll never see investigations into his buddies.
Browder is a scapegoat for the declining economic prospects for affected oligarchs, which pressures Putin to lower his take on their profits from 50% to, say, 20% or get anonymous notes taped to his dacha's door saying "that's sure a nice job you have there; be a terrible thing to lose it."
jamie said:
nan - you didn't answer my question - which oligarch do you wish to have access to his money the most?
Not sure what the MLAT is for in response to any of my questions - please provide context for it.
I was looking for other cases - not Browder related.
This thread is about Browder, not defending individual Russian oligarchs or going on wild gosse chases--open another thread for that. There is lots of Browder is a crook and so was Magnitsky. Browder goes around spreading dangerous propaganda for personal gain which helps us get closer to nuclear war. He is more important to go after than some alleged Russian criminals. Browder is the most dangerous one of all. He pretends to be a whistleblower and human rights advocate, and he really looks to be just a common sleazebag thief.
The MLAT response is a "Mutual legal assistance treaty" document whereby countries help each other prosecute alleged criminals. So, if you go through to the English translation the Russias describe, in detail, the crime of the 230M stolen. It is easy to read and it is summed it up well except for a few awkward sentences.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DcWO9_zbO9qfnPsqhP75RL9zEfZfseCM/view
dave said:
Browder is a scapegoat for the declining economic prospects for affected oligarchs, which pressures Putin to lower his take on their profits from 50% to, say, 20% or get anonymous notes taped to his dacha's door saying "that's sure a nice job you have there; be a terrible thing to lose it."
Where is the evidence for that? Browder does not have it. His story is like Swiss Cheese.
jamie said:
Why such a target on Browder- surely there’s one or two other people financially ripping off the Russian people.
I still think it's for the reason I mentioned on this thread back in March:
nohero said:
imho, the whole Russia/Putin strategy is because of money, specifically the sanctions. They put out a blizzard of claims attacking Browder, as a way to undercut the Magnitsky sanctions. They don't really care about Browder himself, but if going after him helps their anti-sanction goal, they'll do it.
Lots of others are ripping off the Russian people. The Russian Government doesn't care, they only care about the Magnitsky sanctions being imposed by other countries. And, the Russian government has the help of Americans in trying to undercut them.
nan said:Browder is the most dangerous one of all. He pretends to be a whistleblower and human rights advocate, and he really looks to be just a common sleazebag thief.
The MLAT response is a "Mutual legal assistance treaty" document whereby countries help each other prosecute alleged criminals. So, if you go through to the English translation the Russias describe, in detail, the crime of the 230M stolen. It is easy to read and it is summed it up well except for a few awkward sentences.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DcWO9_zbO9qfnPsqhP75RL9zEfZfseCM/view
The second page of the translated document claims that the late, unfortunate Mr. Magnitsky was also a "common sleazebag thief", to quote Nan/Paul. Magnitsky is named as one of the people "who developed a criminal scheme designed to seize the stock of large Russian companies, derive enrichment by illicit stock turnover, tax evasion and fraudulent tax refund from the Russian Federation."
As I said, it's the Russian smear to get rid of the sanctions (with the help of Americans).
One more thing. At the top of page 22 of 27, the last sentence of the "Factual Background" states: "Investigation into the stealing of 5.4 billion rubles in respect of V.N. Kurochkin, S.M. Korobeinikov, O.G. Gasanov and S.L. Magnitsky was discontinued owing to their deaths." Two thoughts on that:
1. That's a lot of unfortunate deaths, and as we all know Magnitsky's death was after he was arrested and already in custody.
2. As was discussed on this thread in August, Magnitsky was tried and convicted despite the fact that he was dead. So there's a great big, provable lie in the Russian MLAT response, which claims the investigation into Magnitsky was "discontinued".
Not convicted. Found guilty, but not convicted. Under Russian law a dead person can go to trial to clear their name. Magnitsky’s name was not cleared.
Imagine, if you will, the US tried Julian Assange 3 years ago, while Assange was in the Ecuadorian embassy, and we gave Giuliani the job of his defense attorney. And he was found guilty and the US wanted him extradited. That’s where Browder is right now. Except he’s been tried and found guilty twice in absentia, with another trial forthcoming. But their justice system is completely trustworthy.
ridski said:
Not convicted. Found guilty, but not convicted. Under Russian law a dead person can go to trial to clear their name. Magnitsky’s name was not cleared.
Okay, the point still stands. Magnitsky was found guilty, but the MLAT document from Russia (which we're supposed to trust implicitly) claims the investigation against him was discontinued.
ridski said:
Imagine, if you will, the US tried Julian Assange 3 years ago, while Assange was in the Ecuadorian embassy, and we gave Giuliani the job of his defense attorney. And he was found guilty ...
Saw what you did there.
To follow some of the money - a good one to google- is Putin's cellist friend: Sergei Roldugin
In March 2019, Roldugin was implicated in a nearly $9 billion global money laundering scheme allegedly constructed by Sberbank CIB (formerly known as "Troika Dialog"), in which Roldugin received $69 million.
Perhaps someone can point to Lucy's reporting on people like this.
nohero said:
Lots of others are ripping off the Russian people. The Russian Government doesn't care, they only care about the Magnitsky sanctions being imposed by other countries. And, the Russian government has the help of Americans in trying to undercut them.
Ripping off people is not in the same class as helping to bring on nuclear war and Cold War 2.0. Let the Russian government deal with Russia--when the US was there to help in the 1990s they made it so bad, Putin seemed like a great guy to them and they keep him around and would take him any day over Yeltsin.
Bill Browder is a dangerous person, precisely because he has you all brainwashed that he is a humanitarian leader and that everything with the word "Russian" in it is evil and threatening the US.
nohero said:
The second page of the translated document claims that the late, unfortunate Mr. Magnitsky was also a "common sleazebag thief", to quote Nan/Paul. Magnitsky is named as one of the people "who developed a criminal scheme designed to seize the stock of large Russian companies, derive enrichment by illicit stock turnover, tax evasion and fraudulent tax refund from the Russian Federation."
As I said, it's the Russian smear to get rid of the sanctions (with the help of Americans).
One more thing. At the top of page 22 of 27, the last sentence of the "Factual Background" states: "Investigation into the stealing of 5.4 billion rubles in respect of V.N. Kurochkin, S.M. Korobeinikov, O.G. Gasanov and S.L. Magnitsky was discontinued owing to their deaths." Two thoughts on that:
1. That's a lot of unfortunate deaths, and as we all know Magnitsky's death was after he was arrested and already in custody.
2. As was discussed on this thread in August, Magnitsky was tried and convicted despite the fact that he was dead. So there's a great big, provable lie in the Russian MLAT response, which claims the investigation into Magnitsky was "discontinued".
If you think the Russians are lying, where is your evidence? I've shown you evidence that Browder is lying and making up his story and your response has been to just believe him no matter what he says. The Russians have evidence--where is yours?
jamie said:
Perhaps someone can point to Lucy's reporting on people like this.
Who are you to tell an investigative reporter what to report on. She is specifically interested in Browder and why should she stop doing that? If you think he is innocent than show the evidence. Browder has not been able to, but perhaps you have some.
nan said:
nohero said:If you think the Russians are lying, where is your evidence? I've shown you evidence that Browder is lying and making up his story and your response has been to just believe him no matter what he says. The Russians have evidence--where is yours?
...
At the top of page 22 of 27, the last sentence of the "Factual Background" states: "Investigation into the stealing of 5.4 billion rubles in respect of V.N. Kurochkin, S.M. Korobeinikov, O.G. Gasanov and S.L. Magnitsky was discontinued owing to their deaths." Two thoughts on that:
...
2. As was discussed on this thread in August, Magnitsky was tried and convicted despite the fact that he was dead. So there's a great big, provable lie in the Russian MLAT response, which claims the investigation into Magnitsky was "discontinued".
I snipped and highlighted parts of the response which Nan/Paul responded to. Despite what the Russians told the court in the MLAT response, they didn't discontinue the investigation of Magnitsky after his death. Instead, they all but dug him up and propped him up in court, as they put him on trial post-mortem.
nohero said:
I snipped and highlighted parts of the response which Nan/Paul responded to. Despite what the Russians told the court in the MLAT response, they didn't discontinue the investigation of Magnitsky after his death. Instead, they all but dug him up and propped him up in court, as they put him on trial post-mortem.
Bill Browder props him up after death as a great friend and martyr. His whole career is based on this fiction.
nan said:
nohero said:Bill Browder props him up after death as a great friend and martyr. His whole career is based on this fiction.
I snipped and highlighted parts of the response which Nan/Paul responded to. Despite what the Russians told the court in the MLAT response, they didn't discontinue the investigation of Magnitsky after his death. Instead, they all but dug him up and propped him up in court, as they put him on trial post-mortem.
The "whatabout" is based on contested claims by supporters of the Russian government narrative.
It doesn't eliminate, and is undercut by, the glaring lie in the documents from Russia.
nohero said:
The "whatabout" is based on contested claims by supporters of the Russian government narrative.
It doesn't eliminate, and is undercut by, the glaring lie in the documents from Russia.
The glaring lies are the holes in Bill Browder's story, which he cannot explain. Instead he blocks everyone who might challenge him and works overtime keeping the movie and book about him suppressed and anyone who manages to get through is labeled a Russian agent.
nan said:
nohero said:The glaring lies are the holes in Bill Browder's story, which he cannot explain. Instead he blocks everyone who might challenge him and works overtime keeping the movie and book about him suppressed and anyone who manages to get through is labeled a Russian agent.
The "whatabout" is based on contested claims by supporters of the Russian government narrative.
It doesn't eliminate, and is undercut by, the glaring lie in the documents from Russia.
So, we're going to ignore the obvious lie from Russia in their anti-Browder filing. Got it.
nohero said:
So, we're going to ignore the obvious lie from Russia in their anti-Browder filing. Got it.
I don't see an obvious lie from Russia. They were investigating Browder. Magnitsky worked for Browder.
Why doesn't Komisar or you mention Russia abusing Interpol to try and arrest Browder? Do you think he would get proper justice in a Russian court?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-browder/russia-asks-interpol-to-arrest-kremlin-critic-bill-browder-again-letter-idUSKCN1RL0PY
Are you in favor of extraditing him to Russia?