Why our party is in trouble
I said that I haver reservations about him. Here's the thing: My number 1 issue has always been personal liberty. And I have felt that liberty under attack for some time. Read back on this board and you will see that I consistently argue in defense of liberty and against the power of the state.
Here's the thing though: I have never so viscerally felt my liberties infringed as I have over the last couple of years. And look, I didn't have it as bad as many have. I know people who have lost their jobs. I just got a case of Bells Palsy after my vaccination. While this was scary and odd and really uncomfortable(I still get occasional intense pain at the back of my jaw on that side of my face), it pales in comparison to the shame I feel: I knew it was wrong. I wanted to see my youngest get a rite of passage.
The thing is that I was also forced to get my youngest vaccinated. And he seems ok, but what do we really know? I hope he is ok. Will it affect his development? Will it affect his reproductive system? We don't know what the long term effects are. It is impossible to know. Though it is puzzling that excess deaths are still elevated even after taking covid deaths into account.
I work in NYC, and maybe its just PTSD, but NYC is insane. They still check for vaccinations at my office. There is a separate protocol for those who haven't been vaccinated. I remember my co-workers saying something about how surprised they are that those people are in that line. I told them that I admire those people. It is not easy to do what you think is right. After all, I'm pretty bull headed and I found out what my price was.
And here is the thing. Our politicians closed business. They didn't allow people to gather. They closed the gyms. They closed the schools. Some places still make children wear masks. They chose what businesses could stay open. They consistently made exceptions for themselves and their cronies. They used the press and big tech to shame and shut anyone up who isn't on board. Although the narrative is collapsing(inevitably as it was built on lies), this shaming continues until today.
In the face of all this, Ron DeSantis swam against the current. He actually read the studies and opened his society up. At first, I disagreed with some of what he was doing. I figured private business should be able to make their own decisions. But, they were still under pressure from the Federal Government and liberal local politicians. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
Perhaps he won't be a good president. But I know Biden, or whoever the Democrats nominate will be supportive of this type of tyranny. Perhaps they even believe its helpful.
I have been told I'm an enemy of this country. I give these bastards half my salary and they call me an enemy. They wish me death. They call me a threat to democracy(well perhaps they've got a point there).
The people that do these things are my enemy. Bottom Line: I'm pretty angry.
terp said:
I said that I haver reservations about him. Here's the thing: My number 1 issue has always been personal liberty. And I have felt that liberty under attack for some time. Read back on this board and you will see that I consistently argue in defense of liberty and against the power of the state.
Here's the thing though: I have never so viscerally felt my liberties infringed as I have over the last couple of years. And look, I didn't have it as bad as many have. I know people who have lost their jobs. I just got a case of Bells Palsy after my vaccination. While this was scary and odd and really uncomfortable(I still get occasional intense pain at the back of my jaw on that side of my face), it pales in comparison to the shame I feel: I knew it was wrong. I wanted to see my youngest get a rite of passage.
The thing is that I was also forced to get my youngest vaccinated. And he seems ok, but what do we really know? I hope he is ok. Will it affect his development? Will it affect his reproductive system? We don't know what the long term effects are. It is impossible to know. Though it is puzzling that excess deaths are still elevated even after taking covid deaths into account.
I work in NYC, and maybe its just PTSD, but NYC is insane. They still check for vaccinations at my office. There is a separate protocol for those who haven't been vaccinated. I remember my co-workers saying something about how surprised they are that those people are in that line. I told them that I admire those people. It is not easy to do what you think is right. After all, I'm pretty bull headed and I found out what my price was.
And here is the thing. Our politicians closed business. They didn't allow people to gather. They closed the gyms. They closed the schools. Some places still make children wear masks. They chose what businesses could stay open. They consistently made exceptions for themselves and their cronies. They used the press and big tech to shame and shut anyone up who isn't on board. Although the narrative is collapsing(inevitably as it was built on lies), this shaming continues until today.
In the face of all this, Ron DeSantis swam against the current. He actually read the studies and opened his society up. At first, I disagreed with some of what he was doing. I figured private business should be able to make their own decisions. But, they were still under pressure from the Federal Government and liberal local politicians. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
Perhaps he won't be a good president. But I know Biden, or whoever the Democrats nominate will be supportive of this type of tyranny. Perhaps they even believe its helpful.
I have been told I'm an enemy of this country. I give these bastards half my salary and they call me an enemy. They wish me death. They call me a threat to democracy(well perhaps they've got a point there).
The people that do these things are my enemy. Bottom Line: I'm pretty angry.
Right, you don't have to worry about your "liberty" being taken away from you by DeSantis because you're a straight white male. #privilege
Also, in your rant above about what "they" did, you forgot to include saved a lot of lives and long term suffering from long term consequences from COVID.
Terp said this:
"In the face of all this, Ron DeSantis swam against the current. He actually read the studies and opened his society up."
Perhaps the most politically naive statement on MOL in the past year.
terp said:
I said that I haver reservations about him. Here's the thing: My number 1 issue has always been personal liberty. And I have felt that liberty under attack for some time. Read back on this board and you will see that I consistently argue in defense of liberty and against the power of the state.
Here's the thing though: I have never so viscerally felt my liberties infringed as I have over the last couple of years. And look, I didn't have it as bad as many have. I know people who have lost their jobs. I just got a case of Bells Palsy after my vaccination. While this was scary and odd and really uncomfortable(I still get occasional intense pain at the back of my jaw on that side of my face), it pales in comparison to the shame I feel: I knew it was wrong. I wanted to see my youngest get a rite of passage.
The thing is that I was also forced to get my youngest vaccinated. And he seems ok, but what do we really know? I hope he is ok. Will it affect his development? Will it affect his reproductive system? We don't know what the long term effects are. It is impossible to know. Though it is puzzling that excess deaths are still elevated even after taking covid deaths into account.
I work in NYC, and maybe its just PTSD, but NYC is insane. They still check for vaccinations at my office. There is a separate protocol for those who haven't been vaccinated. I remember my co-workers saying something about how surprised they are that those people are in that line. I told them that I admire those people. It is not easy to do what you think is right. After all, I'm pretty bull headed and I found out what my price was.
And here is the thing. Our politicians closed business. They didn't allow people to gather. They closed the gyms. They closed the schools. Some places still make children wear masks. They chose what businesses could stay open. They consistently made exceptions for themselves and their cronies. They used the press and big tech to shame and shut anyone up who isn't on board. Although the narrative is collapsing(inevitably as it was built on lies), this shaming continues until today.
In the face of all this, Ron DeSantis swam against the current. He actually read the studies and opened his society up. At first, I disagreed with some of what he was doing. I figured private business should be able to make their own decisions. But, they were still under pressure from the Federal Government and liberal local politicians. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
Perhaps he won't be a good president. But I know Biden, or whoever the Democrats nominate will be supportive of this type of tyranny. Perhaps they even believe its helpful.
I have been told I'm an enemy of this country. I give these bastards half my salary and they call me an enemy. They wish me death. They call me a threat to democracy(well perhaps they've got a point there).
The people that do these things are my enemy. Bottom Line: I'm pretty angry.
Fun fact about so-called libertarians. Give ‘em enough rope…
terp said:
For starters, it would have been great to not hand the Taliban a **** ton of military weaponry.
For starters we never should have invaded.
To end it, we handed the Afghan government some of that **** ton of military weaponry and they walked away from it, because why wouldn’t you?
The topper is that when we signed the agreement to hand over Afghanistan to the Taliban, we were holding a country the size of Texas with only 13,000 troops (for comparison, there are 18,000 troops in the Texas National Guard.) And the agreement was to drop that force by half or more within 6 months.
When Biden took office we had 2500 troops in Afghanistan, just over the capacity of the Wellmont theater in Montclair. Even with the extension from May to September, you’d be hard pressed to shift that much military equipment with only 2500 people out of that country, and the fact that there WAS that much military equipment with only 2500 people to retrieve it falls on the Trump administration, who had 10 months to do it before Biden took over and did not.
Which goes back to my original statement: mtierney considers our withdrawal from Afghanistan a disaster and a failure for Biden, so I asked her if her opinion of Biden would be different if it had all gone to plan. You state about ifs and whatever, but that doesn’t matter because my point is that there was no plan. There never was, or that **** ton of military weaponry you mention would have come back with our troops, but it didn’t.
ridski said:
Which goes back to my original statement: mtierney considers our withdrawal from Afghanistan a disaster and a failure for Biden, so I asked her if her opinion of Biden would be different if it had all gone to plan. You state about ifs and whatever, but that doesn’t matter because my point is that there was no plan. There never was, or that **** ton of military weaponry you mention would have come back with our troops, but it didn’t.
Sometimes you just have to spell it out for them.
terp said:
I said that I haver reservations about him. Here's the thing: My number 1 issue has always been personal liberty. And I have felt that liberty under attack for some time. Read back on this board and you will see that I consistently argue in defense of liberty and against the power of the state.
Here's the thing though: I have never so viscerally felt my liberties infringed as I have over the last couple of years. ...
Ron DeSantis isn't "pro-personal liberty", he's "pro-what-do-my-white-people-want".
You don't have to worry about voting or censorship, so you wouldn't have a problem if DeSantis makes America like Florida.
terp said:
And look, I didn't have it as bad as many have. I know people who have lost their jobs. ...
And I know people who died in the first wave of the pandemic, before we had the rules and the tools to protect people.
terp said:
Bottom Line: I'm pretty angry.
that was evident long before COVID.
Jaytee said:
terp said:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. There are things about DeSantis that give me pause. But, I hope he is the nominee. If so, I will take a leave of absence at work and go to the wall to get him elected
you have enemies here? Why are you republicans so delusional?
It’s regionally normal to be a tad “delusional” here in the northeast’s liberal and progressive version of the Democratic party — easy to forget some 74 million Americans voted for DJT across our country.
mtierney said:
It’s regionally normal to be a tad “delusional” here in the northeast’s liberal and progressive version of the Democratic party — easy to forget some 74 million Americans voted for DJT across our country.
And what of the 81 million Americans who voted for Biden across our country?
mtierney said:
It’s regionally normal to be a tad “delusional” here in the northeast’s liberal and progressive version of the Democratic party — easy to forget some 74 million Americans voted for DJT across our country.
A big number doesn't prove anything other than that it's a big number.
I'm still trying to process Terp's intention to support DeSantis because he think's he will be better when it comes to libertarian "principles".
ml1 said:
mtierney said:
It’s regionally normal to be a tad “delusional” here in the northeast’s liberal and progressive version of the Democratic party — easy to forget some 74 million Americans voted for DJT across our country.
A big number doesn't prove anything other than that it's a big number.
If you're the first one to mention a big number, you win. Those are the rules.
mtierney said:
It’s regionally normal to be a tad “delusional” here in the northeast’s liberal and progressive version of the Democratic party — easy to forget some 74 million Americans voted for DJT across our country.
Nobody's "delusional" about the size of Trump's support. It's not easy to forget a terrifying number like that.
tjohn said:
I'm still trying to process Terp's intention to support DeSantis because he think's he will be better when it comes to libertarian "principles".
I believe he's said he doesn't consider himself libertarian anymore.
PVW said:
tjohn said:
I'm still trying to process Terp's intention to support DeSantis because he think's he will be better when it comes to libertarian "principles".
I believe he's said he doesn't consider himself libertarian anymore.
The progression from libertarian to fascist is well-documented.
I was just slinging b.s.at first, but then I found a piece on the Internet so I know it's true.
tjohn said:
The progression from libertarian to fascist is well-documented.
I was just slinging b.s.at first, but then I found a piece on the Internet so I know it's true.
Eh -- I'm not a big fan of those kinds of pieces. You can do them with any political ideology. For instance, just using one or two people from some neighboring threads, I could write a "the pipeline from liberal anti-imperialism to authoritarian warmongering is shorter than you think."
I have my philosophical bones to pick with libertarianism (and have done so over the years here), but I don't know that I'd say that libertarianism itself predisposes anyone to embracing fascism.
ETA -- I think that in practice, many people who have claimed the label "libertarian" were more conservatives who didn't want to be associated too strongly with Republicans.
PVW said:
ETA -- I think that in practice, many people who have claimed the label "libertarian" were more conservatives who didn't want to be associated too strongly with Republicans.
I'm not sure how many self-professed "libertarians" ever bothered to do any real reading into the philosophical foundations. In my experience most "libertarians" are white guys who want "personal liberty" for themselves. And some of them are small business people who just don't want to be bothered by annoyances like workplace safety or environmental regulations. Because when you scratch the surface of many of those folks, you find people who are perfectly fine with the cops breaking heads, as long as it's "antifa" or BLM demonstrators.
I find the number of people who bother to do any real reading into the philosophical foundations of whichever beliefs they profess is very small in general.
tjohn said:
PVW said:
tjohn said:
I'm still trying to process Terp's intention to support DeSantis because he think's he will be better when it comes to libertarian "principles".
I believe he's said he doesn't consider himself libertarian anymore.
The progression from libertarian to fascist is well-documented.
It is, however, not necessarily permanent. Rammzoinksbroigus beat the odds.
https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/mea-culpa?page=next&limit=
ml1 said:
I'm not sure how many self-professed "libertarians" ever bothered to do any real reading into the philosophical foundations. In my experience most "libertarians" are white guys who want "personal liberty" for themselves. And some of them are small business people who just don't want to be bothered by annoyances like workplace safety or environmental regulations. Because when you scratch the surface of many of those folks, you find people who are perfectly fine with the cops breaking heads, as long as it's "antifa" or BLM demonstrators.
Well put. I didn't think of it that way but you're right. They no problem with state power being used to suppress "troublemakers."
PVW said:
Eh -- I'm not a big fan of those kinds of pieces. You can do them with any political ideology. For instance, just using one or two people from some neighboring threads, I could write a "the pipeline from liberal anti-imperialism to authoritarian warmongering is shorter than you think."
PVW said:
I find the number of people who bother to do any real reading into the philosophical foundations of whichever beliefs they profess is very small in general.
this is true. But many people don't profess to have a deep philosophical ideology at all. OTOH I put "libertarians" in the category of people claiming to have a personal commitment to a set of principles.
PVW said:
I find the number of people who bother to do any real reading into the philosophical foundations of whichever beliefs they profess is very small in general.
One of the reasons I try to avoid labels and prefer to adopt the Rick Hunter Principle.
ml1 said:
this is true. But many people don't profess to have a deep philosophical ideology at all. OTOH I put "libertarians" in the category of people claiming to have a personal commitment to a set of principles.
I'd agree with that. I'd also put on that list people who make a big deal about their religious identity but then get upset if you take them seriously.
PVW said:
ml1 said:
this is true. But many people don't profess to have a deep philosophical ideology at all. OTOH I put "libertarians" in the category of people claiming to have a personal commitment to a set of principles.
I'd agree with that. I'd also put on that list people who make a big deal about their religious identity but then get upset if you take them seriously.
I don't go around loudly proclaiming myself "liberal" or "progressive." It's generally a label someone else puts on me after hearing my thoughts on politics. And usually it starts with the person saying "You liberals...!"
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I can't even.
You don't notice his authoritarian tendencies?
An amazing admission.