The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns

Smedley said:

I don't get what makes that difficult. If someone's being an idiot by saying an implausible scenario is the base case scenario, tell them that. I think that's a better response than marginalizing plausible theories just because they're embraced by the idiots who take it one step further into crazy town.  

given how many times a few of us have agreed the possibility of a lab leak should be investigated, who's marginalizing it as a plausible theory?

My objection all along has been that a number of the people espousing the crazy theories have pretty big platforms to share them. How else to explain the 60%+ of Republicans who believe them?

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough. I do remember my 8th grade social studies teacher, Mr. McInerney, would get red in the face when saying "You cannot trust communists." That left an impression on me, and to this day I think he was correct.  

what a strange post.

so who do you trust?

i don't trust communists. I said nothing about who I do or don't trust outside of that group nor is that the remotest bit relevant to this discussion.

you're a hawk in the Russia threads. Do you trust Putin, who's as authoritarian/communist as heart as can be? Do you trust Russia's primary benefactor, China? Would be kind of weird if you do given your hawkish posts.

I don't see what trust has to do with any of this.

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

I don't get what makes that difficult. If someone's being an idiot by saying an implausible scenario is the base case scenario, tell them that. I think that's a better response than marginalizing plausible theories just because they're embraced by the idiots who take it one step further into crazy town.  

given how many times a few of us have agreed the possibility of a lab leak should be investigated, who's marginalizing it as a plausible theory?

This is turning into another circular discussion if it's not there already. Lots of MSM marginalized the lab leak theory back early in the pandemic which I previously posted about. And MOL consensus is pretty highly correlated with MSM when it's onto an anti-Republican narrative, which that was. And just recently you effectively labeled lab leak theory as misinformation. Although you did seem to clarify that that wasn't your intent.

but if you and everyone else are saying a lab leak theory is and always a plausible, ie reasonable, theory, then mea culpa for misunderstanding and we're all on the same page.

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough. I do remember my 8th grade social studies teacher, Mr. McInerney, would get red in the face when saying "You cannot trust communists." That left an impression on me, and to this day I think he was correct.  

what a strange post.

so who do you trust?

i don't trust communists. I said nothing about who I do or don't trust outside of that group nor is that the remotest bit relevant to this discussion.

you're a hawk in the Russia threads. Do you trust Putin, who's as authoritarian/communist as heart as can be? Do you trust Russia's primary benefactor, China? Would be kind of weird if you do given your hawkish posts.

I'm a hawk? How do you figure that?

PVW said:

I don't see what trust has to do with any of this.

my mistrust of China is at the root of my not trusting them that they do not research bioweapons. I don't necessarily believe that they do but I wouldn't put it past them. 

PVW said:

I don't see what trust has to do with any of this.

me either. 

I assume any government will lie and obfuscate if they think it benefits itself. 

That said, I look at the fact that China closed and disinfected the Wuhan market as an important fact in the origin of COVID-19. Is that incontrovertible  evidence that it originated  in animals? No.  It could have come from a lab and infected animals or market workers. But it is an indication the Chinese government thought it probably originated there. 

Of course the conspiracy minded will say it means China was trying to divert attention away from a lab leak. But at the time they did it, were they aware COVID-19 would become a pandemic? Probably not. The simplest explanation for why they shut down the market was because they thought it was the epicenter of the outbreak. 

To me that's more convincing circumstantial evidence than "coincidences" surrounding the Wuhan lab. 

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough. I do remember my 8th grade social studies teacher, Mr. McInerney, would get red in the face when saying "You cannot trust communists." That left an impression on me, and to this day I think he was correct.  

what a strange post.

so who do you trust?

i don't trust communists. I said nothing about who I do or don't trust outside of that group nor is that the remotest bit relevant to this discussion.

you're a hawk in the Russia threads. Do you trust Putin, who's as authoritarian/communist as heart as can be? Do you trust Russia's primary benefactor, China? Would be kind of weird if you do given your hawkish posts.

I'm a hawk? How do you figure that?

so you don't want to fight a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine? I think Paul should know that. 

Smedley said:

my mistrust of China is at the root of my not trusting them that they do not research bioweapons. I don't necessarily believe that they do but I wouldn't put it past them. 

Uh, what? Anyone you don't trust might be making bioweapons? How does that even make any sense?

PVW said:

Smedley said:

my mistrust of China is at the root of my not trusting them that they do not research bioweapons. I don't necessarily believe that they do but I wouldn't put it past them. 

Uh, what? Anyone you don't trust might be making bioweapons? How does that even make any sense?

if you want to take china at their word on this matter or any other, be my guest. I personally think that's a naive viewpoint, but to each their own.

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough. I do remember my 8th grade social studies teacher, Mr. McInerney, would get red in the face when saying "You cannot trust communists." That left an impression on me, and to this day I think he was correct.  

what a strange post.

so who do you trust?

i don't trust communists. I said nothing about who I do or don't trust outside of that group nor is that the remotest bit relevant to this discussion.

you're a hawk in the Russia threads. Do you trust Putin, who's as authoritarian/communist as heart as can be? Do you trust Russia's primary benefactor, China? Would be kind of weird if you do given your hawkish posts.

I'm a hawk? How do you figure that?

so you don't want to fight a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine? I think Paul should know that. 

you think supporting Ukraine is a hawkish position? and letting Ukraine get overrun by Russia is dovish?

more weirdness 

Smedley said:

so you don't want to fight a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine? I think Paul should know that. 

Oh, not you, too.

nohero said:

Oh, not you, too.

I tried to warn you guys….

Smedley said:

Do you trust Putin, who's as authoritarian/communist as heart as can be? 

LOL!  Perhaps you just don't understand the term "communist"?

It would be amusing if this long held belief of yours hinged entirely on a poor grasp of vocabulary.

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough. I do remember my 8th grade social studies teacher, Mr. McInerney, would get red in the face when saying "You cannot trust communists." That left an impression on me, and to this day I think he was correct.  

what a strange post.

so who do you trust?

i don't trust communists. I said nothing about who I do or don't trust outside of that group nor is that the remotest bit relevant to this discussion.

you're a hawk in the Russia threads. Do you trust Putin, who's as authoritarian/communist as heart as can be? Do you trust Russia's primary benefactor, China? Would be kind of weird if you do given your hawkish posts.

I'm a hawk? How do you figure that?

so you don't want to fight a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine? I think Paul should know that. 

you think supporting Ukraine is a hawkish position? and letting Ukraine get overrun by Russia is dovish?

more weirdness 

i noticed you ignored my questions. Do you trust China, who's been singlehandedly propping up Russia's economy throughout the Ukraine war?

i imagine it's an inconvenient question for you, bc if you say no you align with me, but if you say yes you're kinda flattering the friend of our enemy in a war you support. 

but please respond, thank you

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough. I do remember my 8th grade social studies teacher, Mr. McInerney, would get red in the face when saying "You cannot trust communists." That left an impression on me, and to this day I think he was correct.  

what a strange post.

so who do you trust?

i don't trust communists. I said nothing about who I do or don't trust outside of that group nor is that the remotest bit relevant to this discussion.

you're a hawk in the Russia threads. Do you trust Putin, who's as authoritarian/communist as heart as can be? Do you trust Russia's primary benefactor, China? Would be kind of weird if you do given your hawkish posts.

I'm a hawk? How do you figure that?

so you don't want to fight a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine? I think Paul should know that. 

you think supporting Ukraine is a hawkish position? and letting Ukraine get overrun by Russia is dovish?

more weirdness 

i noticed you ignored my questions. Do you trust China, who's been singlehandedly propping up Russia's economy throughout the Ukraine war?

i imagine it's an inconvenient question for you, bc if you say no you align with me, but if you say yes you're kinda flattering the friend of our enemy in a war you support. 

but please respond, thank you

where did you ask me if I trust China? 

Smedley said:

if you want to take china at their word on this matter or any other, be my guest. I personally think that's a naive viewpoint, but to each their own.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

But let me say this about trusting governments. It's a complex question. I don't trust any government implicitly. I take their statements and match them up against known quantities and evaluate who is best being served by their comments.

To say that you simply don't trust a particular government means that you believe everything they say is false, which is a bit ridiculous. 

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough. I do remember my 8th grade social studies teacher, Mr. McInerney, would get red in the face when saying "You cannot trust communists." That left an impression on me, and to this day I think he was correct.  

what a strange post.

so who do you trust?

i don't trust communists. I said nothing about who I do or don't trust outside of that group nor is that the remotest bit relevant to this discussion.

you're a hawk in the Russia threads. Do you trust Putin, who's as authoritarian/communist as heart as can be? Do you trust Russia's primary benefactor, China? Would be kind of weird if you do given your hawkish posts.

I'm a hawk? How do you figure that?

so you don't want to fight a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine? I think Paul should know that. 

you think supporting Ukraine is a hawkish position? and letting Ukraine get overrun by Russia is dovish?

more weirdness 

i noticed you ignored my questions. Do you trust China, who's been singlehandedly propping up Russia's economy throughout the Ukraine war?

i imagine it's an inconvenient question for you, bc if you say no you align with me, but if you say yes you're kinda flattering the friend of our enemy in a war you support. 

but please respond, thank you

where did you ask me if I trust China? 

504pm today. And then again at 539. Did you misplace your readers? Or are you just avoiding the question.

drummerboy said:

But let me say this about trusting governments. It's a complex question. I don't trust any government implicitly. I take their statements and match them up against known quantities and evaluate who is best being served by their comments.

To say that you simply don't trust a particular government means that you believe everything they say is false, which is a bit ridiculous. 

actually that doesn't mean that at all. 

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough. I do remember my 8th grade social studies teacher, Mr. McInerney, would get red in the face when saying "You cannot trust communists." That left an impression on me, and to this day I think he was correct.  

what a strange post.

so who do you trust?

i don't trust communists. I said nothing about who I do or don't trust outside of that group nor is that the remotest bit relevant to this discussion.

you're a hawk in the Russia threads. Do you trust Putin, who's as authoritarian/communist as heart as can be? Do you trust Russia's primary benefactor, China? Would be kind of weird if you do given your hawkish posts.

I'm a hawk? How do you figure that?

so you don't want to fight a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine? I think Paul should know that. 

you think supporting Ukraine is a hawkish position? and letting Ukraine get overrun by Russia is dovish?

more weirdness 

i noticed you ignored my questions. Do you trust China, who's been singlehandedly propping up Russia's economy throughout the Ukraine war?

i imagine it's an inconvenient question for you, bc if you say no you align with me, but if you say yes you're kinda flattering the friend of our enemy in a war you support. 

but please respond, thank you

where did you ask me if I trust China? 

504pm today. And then again at 539. Did you misplace your readers? Or are you just avoiding the question.

Oh yeah. I kind of ignored the rest of your post after you called me a hawk. Also, your question was pretty much just blather.

And I've answered your questions now anyway.

Any totalitarian regime, whether communist or not, cannot be trusted. Period. I for one want no part of any communist country, I experienced that hell. 

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

But let me say this about trusting governments. It's a complex question. I don't trust any government implicitly. I take their statements and match them up against known quantities and evaluate who is best being served by their comments.

To say that you simply don't trust a particular government means that you believe everything they say is false, which is a bit ridiculous. 

actually that doesn't mean that at all. 

It means exactly that because you are blanketly saying you don't trust them. Like you don't trust communists.

What else could it mean?

just about all governments lie. Have we forgotten how the U.S. got into Iraq, for example? Or have we already forgotten that nearly every statement from the White House for four years was a lie?

it's not as though China is some kind of extreme outlier on untruthfulness compared to other governments around the world.

On further thought, I actually have two ideas of what Smedley might be talking about.

1. We are taking China's word for it that the pandemic began at the market and not the lab. The problem with that claim is that China hasn't been saying that -- they've been denying both theories. Here's an example from April of 2020, and one from May. So neither the lab leak nor the market theory are "taking China's word" for it.

2. We are taking China's word for it that the pandemic didn't result from bioweapons research. This is basically qanon logic. One might equally say that anyone who disagrees that Democrats are running cannibalistic child sex rings out of pizza parlor basements is simply taking Democrats' word for it. I hope it's obvious that qanon conspiracies are ridiculous, not based on how much one trusts or distrusts Democrats, but because the allegations themselves are based on nothing and make no sense. Similarly "China started a pandemic on purpose, or maybe are just stupid and didn't realize an uncontrollable weapon that kills millions of their own people is a terrible weapon" is an argument that makes no sense. One could, I suppose, invoke science fiction technology wherein Chinese scientists were somehow going to make the virus only target their enemies, but at that point we may as well accuse the Chinese of secretly building transporter wormhole technology that they used to go back to 2016 and get Trump elected president to weaken the US.

drummerboy said:

It means exactly that because you are blanketly saying you don't trust them. Like you don't trust communists.

What else could it mean?

Taking that a bit literally, no?

He could be not trusting because they have a hidden agenda. They don’t need to be lying in every statement they make, unless you are defining lying pretty broadly.

I don’t particularly trust China either, BTW. 

We are clearly in competition for worldwide influence, economically and politically. I like to think, perhaps naively, that we are a bit more ethical in doing so.

Plausible chain of events might just be that China was working on a dangerous substance — whether a weapon to have on hand is not known. What at is known is that the substance got out of the laboratory and killed millions of people world-wide, changed our personal and professional lives, and caused yet untold harm to the education of our children. 

Fighting over how it happened doesn’t solve anything, but ignoring  a suspicion that there might just be other labs in China secretly working on dangerous potential bio weapons is unwise.

The very fact that China believes visiting Putin is a good thing is the scariest scenario out there. When China goes after Taiwan, sooner than later, I fear WW3 is a real possibility.

But if blowing off steam by insulting fellow posters makes sense to some people, I worry that we are a far away from recognizing the real monster at the gate.

mtierney said:

What at is known is that the substance got out of the laboratory …

This is not known.

mtierney said:

 What at is known is that the substance got out of the laboratory and killed millions of people world-wide, changed our personal and professional lives, and caused yet untold harm to the education of our children. 

mtierney said:

Plausible chain of events might just be that China was working on a dangerous substance — whether a weapon to have on hand is not known. What at is known is that the substance got out of the laboratory and killed millions of people world-wide, changed our personal and professional lives, and caused yet untold harm to the education of our children. 

Fighting over how it happened doesn’t solve anything, but ignoring  a suspicion that there might just be other labs in China secretly working on dangerous potential bio weapons is unwise.

The very fact that China believes visiting Putin is a good thing is the scariest scenario out there. When China goes after Taiwan, sooner than later, I fear WW3 is a real possibility.

But if blowing off steam by insulting fellow posters makes sense to some people, I worry that we are a far away from recognizing the real monster at the gate.

I have no idea what that cartoon is supposed to mean.