US not sure that drone was in international airspace

paulsurovell said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/21/us/politics/trump-iran-attack.html
Gulf of Tonkin, Incubator Babies, Iraq WMDs, Gulf of Hormuz.


 And your pointless point is?...


no doubt in my mind they violated Iran's airspace.


only saps believe the U.S. military without question. 


If an Iranian drone was flying off American shores we would use that for a precept for war international waters or no.


terp said:
If an Iranian drone was flying off American shores we would use that for a precept for war international waters or no.

 https://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow/videos/2342578172448127/UzpfSTEyMTAwODI2MTI6MTAyMjA0MDcwMjE1ODQ4NDg/


ml1 said:
only saps believe the U.S. military without question. 

 +10


The reality is, we had a drone out there to spy on them, and they shot it down.

It's sort of a risk that comes with the job of a drone.  That's why they're used.


What is certain is that we're only hearing a fraction of what actually went on. 

(And this stuff about him finding out last minute that there would be casualties is, of course, pure bs.)


unicorn33 said:
What is certain is that we're only hearing a fraction of what actually went on. 
(And this stuff about him finding out last minute that there would be casualties is, of course, pure bs.)

 And he threw the military people under the bus, when he said that he asked at the last minute and they had to "get back to him" with the potential casualties.  They don't present a plan without that detail.


I would like to thank Paul Surovell for educating us; the naive rubes, on the untrustworthy nature of our military.  


I just wish we had a state department.  Right now we are using the military as our only voice.


FilmCarp said:
I just wish we had a state department.  Right now we are using the military as our only voice.

 that's been the case for at least the last  25 years. Why was Hillary Clinton pushing for war when she was ostensibly in charge of diplomacy?


nohero said:


unicorn33 said:
What is certain is that we're only hearing a fraction of what actually went on. 
(And this stuff about him finding out last minute that there would be casualties is, of course, pure bs.)
 And he threw the military people under the bus, when he said that he asked at the last minute and they had to "get back to him" with the potential casualties.  They don't present a plan without that detail.

 This report indicates Trump threw Bolton under the bus:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-bucked-national-security-aides-on-proposed-iran-attack-11561248602


Trump Bucked National-Security Aides on Proposed Iran Attack
‘These people want to push us into a war... It’s so disgusting,’ president told confidant

Updated June 23, 2019 10:39 am ET

WASHINGTON—President Trump bucked most of his top national-security advisers by abandoning retaliatory strikes in Iran on Thursday. In private conversations Friday, Mr. Trump reveled in his judgment, certain about his decision to call off the attacks while speaking of his administration as if removed from the center of it.
“These people want to push us into a war, and it’s so disgusting,” Mr. Trump told one confidant about his own inner circle of advisers. “We don’t need any more wars.”
[ . . . ]
While many of Mr. Trump’s top advisers backed a more aggressive set of strike options, Marine Gen. Joe Dunford, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, struck a more wary note, which had an outsize influence on the president.
Mr. Trump himself Saturday publicly described the conflict within his own team that remained a sore spot for some involved. He praised Gen. Dunford for counseling caution, while singling out his past disagreements with his hawkish national-security adviser John Bolton, who was the driving force behind the proposed strikes.
Mr. Trump described Gen. Dunford, who officials said has developed a personal rapport with the president, as a “terrific man and a terrific general.” He raised Mr. Bolton’s support for the Iraq war during President George W. Bush’s administration, saying it was a big mistake.
“John Bolton is doing a good job, but he takes generally a tough posture,” Mr. Trump told reporters at the White House. “The only one that matters is me.”
The president is known for seeking a range of opinions, and he did that again amid rising tensions with Iran, even reaching out to Fox News host Tucker Carlson, according to people familiar with those conversations. Mr. Carlson has opposed military intervention in Iran on his prime-time television show.
Mr. Trump said he wants a certain amount of division within his team as he makes a decision, and suggested he was proud about how that reflected on him.
“Everybody was saying I’m a warmonger, and now they’re saying I’m a dove,” Mr. Trump told reporters at the White House. “And I’m neither, if you want to know the truth. I’m a man with common sense.”
But members of Mr. Trump’s team weren’t as pleased with the president about the internal schism, which appeared to strain the fragile alliance within this group at yet another period of transition, according to administration officials. It was unclear whether the division within the team—which includes Mr. Trump’s third national-security adviser, second secretary of state and third official in charge of the Defense Department—would heal or continue to fester.


paulsurovell said:


nohero said:

unicorn33 said:
What is certain is that we're only hearing a fraction of what actually went on. 
(And this stuff about him finding out last minute that there would be casualties is, of course, pure bs.)
 And he threw the military people under the bus, when he said that he asked at the last minute and they had to "get back to him" with the potential casualties.  They don't present a plan without that detail.
 This report indicates Trump threw Bolton under the bus:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-bucked-national-security-aides-on-proposed-iran-attack-11561248602


As I wrote, Trump falsely claimed that he didn't know about the casualties until the last minute.  He blamed someone else (the military) for something he neglected to pay attention to.  That's "throwing under the bus". 


nohero said:


paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

unicorn33 said:
What is certain is that we're only hearing a fraction of what actually went on. 
(And this stuff about him finding out last minute that there would be casualties is, of course, pure bs.)
 And he threw the military people under the bus, when he said that he asked at the last minute and they had to "get back to him" with the potential casualties.  They don't present a plan without that detail.
 This report indicates Trump threw Bolton under the bus:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-bucked-national-security-aides-on-proposed-iran-attack-11561248602


As I wrote, Trump falsely claimed that he didn't know about the casualties until the last minute.  He blamed someone else (the military) for something he neglected to pay attention to.  That's "throwing under the bus". 

 That's all possible, but this updated account is far more definitive:

(Referring to Bolton and other national security advisers)

“These people want to push us into a war, and it’s so disgusting,” Mr. Trump told one confidant about his own inner circle of advisers. “We don’t need any more wars.”


paulsurovell said:


nohero said:
As I wrote, Trump falsely claimed that he didn't know about the casualties until the last minute.  He blamed someone else (the military) for something he neglected to pay attention to.  That's "throwing under the bus". 
Click to Read More

 That's all possible, but this updated account is far more definitive:
(Referring to Bolton and other national security advisers)


“These people want to push us into a war, and it’s so disgusting,” Mr. Trump told one confidant about his own inner circle of advisers. “We don’t need any more wars.”

I'm relying on what Trump said on camera, which is about as definitive as you can get.

So they came and they said, "Sir, we're ready to go. We'd like a decision." I said, "I want to know something before you go. How many people will be killed, in this case Iranians?" I said, "How many people are going to be killed?" "Sir, I'd like get back to you on that," great people these generals. They said, came back, said, "Sir, approximately 150." And I thought about it for a second and I said, "You know what? They shot down an unmanned drone, plane, whatever you want to call it. And here we are sitting with 150 dead people that would have taken place probably within a half an hour after I said go ahead." And I didn't like it. I didn't think it was, I didn’t think it was proportionate.

 


Global powers are playing these "games" with each other all the time.  Look at the recent incident between the US and Russian ships.  

We only hear about a tiny fraction of what happens.


nohero said:


paulsurovell said:

nohero said:
As I wrote, Trump falsely claimed that he didn't know about the casualties until the last minute.  He blamed someone else (the military) for something he neglected to pay attention to.  That's "throwing under the bus". 
Click to Read More

 That's all possible, but this updated account is far more definitive:
(Referring to Bolton and other national security advisers)


“These people want to push us into a war, and it’s so disgusting,” Mr. Trump told one confidant about his own inner circle of advisers. “We don’t need any more wars.”
I'm relying on what Trump said on camera, which is about as definitive as you can get.


So they came and they said, "Sir, we're ready to go. We'd like a decision." I said, "I want to know something before you go. How many people will be killed, in this case Iranians?" I said, "How many people are going to be killed?" "Sir, I'd like get back to you on that," great people these generals. They said, came back, said, "Sir, approximately 150." And I thought about it for a second and I said, "You know what? They shot down an unmanned drone, plane, whatever you want to call it. And here we are sitting with 150 dead people that would have taken place probably within a half an hour after I said go ahead." And I didn't like it. I didn't think it was, I didn’t think it was proportionate.
 

He didn't think about that until the operation was underway?  What a doofus.


nohero said:


paulsurovell said:

nohero said:
As I wrote, Trump falsely claimed that he didn't know about the casualties until the last minute.  He blamed someone else (the military) for something he neglected to pay attention to.  That's "throwing under the bus". 
Click to Read More

 That's all possible, but this updated account is far more definitive:
(Referring to Bolton and other national security advisers)


“These people want to push us into a war, and it’s so disgusting,” Mr. Trump told one confidant about his own inner circle of advisers. “We don’t need any more wars.”
I'm relying on what Trump said on camera, which is about as definitive as you can get.


So they came and they said, "Sir, we're ready to go. We'd like a decision." I said, "I want to know something before you go. How many people will be killed, in this case Iranians?" I said, "How many people are going to be killed?" "Sir, I'd like get back to you on that," great people these generals. They said, came back, said, "Sir, approximately 150." And I thought about it for a second and I said, "You know what? They shot down an unmanned drone, plane, whatever you want to call it. And here we are sitting with 150 dead people that would have taken place probably within a half an hour after I said go ahead." And I didn't like it. I didn't think it was, I didn’t think it was proportionate.
 

 Right, I acknowledged that. I'm just commenting on the "who is being thrown under the bus" aspect of the story.



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