The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse
How long will it take the state's transportation network to recover from the debacle of the Christie administration? He kills ARC, then he can't use his influence with Trump to save Gateway.
Just a reminder, the Skyway renovation -- the one that was using the money from the cancelled ARC project -- is still nowhere near complete; Rt. 139 is partially closed for repair work; and traffic is being partially re-routed along the Turnpike extension.
Pretty soon, we might as well be in Pennsylvania.
I am confident that Gateway will be funded, though possibly too late to prevent a period of closure.
But that absurd terminal at 35th street would have been so bad I still think it is better to wait then to have had to live with that forever.
ska said:
I am confident that Gateway will be funded, though possibly too late to prevent a period of closure.
But that absurd terminal at 35th street would have been so bad I still think it is better to wait then to have had to live with that forever.
that was a narrative used by people who just wanted to kill the project. It's not as though people couldn't go up an escalator. And it would have connected as easily to other rails and subways as the NJT concourse at Penn Station does now.
I agree with the author that the most important thing is not a cathedral to transportation, but to add more tunnels and tracks, but there is a real great opportunity to build a world class transportation hub. Building capacity is paramount, but having a safe, easily navigable, and beautiful entry by rail into the city that will last for years should be a top priority for Murphy and Cuomo.
als4532 said:
I agree with the author that the most important thing is not a cathedral to transportation, but to add more tunnels and tracks, but there is a real great opportunity to build a world class transportation hub. Building capacity is paramount, but having a safe, easily navigable, and beautiful entry by rail into the city that will last for years should be a top priority for Murphy and Cuomo.
It would have to be Murphy and Cuomo. I wouldn't put much hope in Federal support. We had that chance with Obama, which Christie screwed.
Meanwhile, our boasting bully blowed his usual self-aggrandizement bs:
In a nearly 90-minute address, the governor, who has the lowest approval rating in New Jersey’s history, spun a rosy tale of a state he rescued from financial travails, citing a tally of accomplishments seemingly at odds with his constituents’ current view of him.
Yeah, after gifting the state of NJ with eleven credit downgrades. Its like a family whose credit rating went from 850 to 450 and then telling everyone they're financial geniuses.
https://www.northjersey.com/st...
Christie, a Republican in his last year in office, already had the dubious distinction of amassing the most downgrades of any governor in U.S. history. The new action by Moody's was the 11th downgrade under his watch.
The torrent of downgrades has given New Jersey a reputation as one of the worst-managed states, and, according to Bloomberg, it has begun to take a toll on state taxpayers. The cost of borrowing money for major public projects has begun to increase because of the state's low-end credit rating, experts say. Only Illinois has a lower credit rating.
And yet, people continue to vote for these Republicans. We make fun of red states and who they elect. Like we did better.
ml1 said:
ska said:
I am confident that Gateway will be funded, though possibly too late to prevent a period of closure.
But that absurd terminal at 35th street would have been so bad I still think it is better to wait then to have had to live with that forever.
that was a narrative used by people who just wanted to kill the project. It's not as though people couldn't go up an escalator. And it would have connected as easily to other rails and subways as the NJT concourse at Penn Station does now.
Once there was a problem in one tunnel there would inevitably be a message that your train will be on a track clear across to the other side (basically 3 blocks) leaving in 5 minutes. It would have been a nightmare. All NJT tracks need to be together. Otherwise it is worse than nothing.
Herald Square isn't exactly Siberia.
And everybody will be using apps for transit. You'll check your smartphone on your way to the station, and if your train is changed, you'll go to the other. You could sign up for an alert. Nobody would have had to get down there to see that there's a different track assignment.
It is NJT. They would frequently make the change with zero notice. Because that is the way they do things. It would have been awful. Thankfully it will never happen.
Part of NJT's problem (and I hate to be a defender of NJT) is Amtrak. They don't get track assignments until the last minute. In a dedicated station they would be in control. Look how they do it in Hoboken -- your train is at the same track, every day, for years on end.
how can you even pretend to know how operations would have been handled in a new concourse? They don't do that kind of thing now. It's not as though your train is expected on Track 2 and they move it to Track 20. NJT has their section and LIRR has theirs.
ska said:
Once there was a problem in one tunnel there would inevitably be a message that your train will be on a track clear across to the other side (basically 3 blocks) leaving in 5 minutes. It would have been a nightmare. All NJT tracks need to be together. Otherwise it is worse than nothing.
ml1 said:
how can you even pretend to know how operations would have been handled in a new concourse? They don't do that kind of thing now. It's not as though your train is expected on Track 2 and they move it to Track 20. NJT has their section and LIRR has theirs.
ska said:
Once there was a problem in one tunnel there would inevitably be a message that your train will be on a track clear across to the other side (basically 3 blocks) leaving in 5 minutes. It would have been a nightmare. All NJT tracks need to be together. Otherwise it is worse than nothing.
Yes. And NJ transit would have had two blocks of tracks separated by several blocks. Would have been insanity.
again, you don't know anything about how the station would have operated. And if a tunnel was closed for some reason, the least of your problems would be what track they moved your train to.
Actually that is exactly how it was said it would operate. NJ Transit trains going through the old tunnel would go to the tracks they now go to (and could not go to the new tracks) and NJ Transit trains going through the new tunnel could only go to the new terminal. Which is absurd and no bad thing it will never happen.
It's not the greatest plan, but it'd be way better than the status quo. Perfect plans don't exist.
ska said:
Actually that is exactly how it was said it would operate. NJ Transit trains going through the old tunnel would go to the tracks they now go to (and could not go to the new tracks) and NJ Transit trains going through the new tunnel could only go to the new terminal. Which is absurd and no bad thing it will never happen.
ska said:
Actually that is exactly how it was said it would operate. NJ Transit trains going through the old tunnel would go to the tracks they now go to (and could not go to the new tracks) and NJ Transit trains going through the new tunnel could only go to the new terminal. Which is absurd and no bad thing it will never happen.
Trains do tend to end up where the tracks lead. Sorry they're not putting in an interchange switch and tracks to allow transfer movement between tunnels.
But so what? The scheduling would be set up so that the same trains would use the same tunnel. They're even thinking of dividing train traffic up by train line. Two stations are really better than one.
The thing is you will get consistent delivery to "your" terminal depending on the train you use. The schedules would show it.
At least, if one tunnel is backed up due to a broken train, damaged power cables, etc, trains can be rerouted to the alternate tunnel. An improvement over waiting for the issue to be fixed.
As for the depth. The NYC Subway line 7 station Times Square is deep, deep, deep. A very busy station that people manage to get in and out of without complaint.
How is this a problem? More to the point how is this a fatal flaw that should have killed this vital improvement?
ska said:
Actually that is exactly how it was said it would operate. NJ Transit trains going through. the old tunnel would go to the tracks they now go to (and could not go to the new tracks) and NJ Transit trains going through the new tunnel could only go to the new terminal. Which is absurd and no bad thing it will never happen.
Having your operation split into two halves several blocks apart was indeed a fatal flaw that makes it good that it was never realized.
ml1 said:
How is this a problem? More to the point how is this a fatal flaw that should have killed this vital improvement?
ska said:
Actually that is exactly how it was said it would operate. NJ Transit trains going through. the old tunnel would go to the tracks they now go to (and could not go to the new tracks) and NJ Transit trains going through the new tunnel could only go to the new terminal. Which is absurd and no bad thing it will never happen.
look at the diagram. It's no more spread out than the Times Square subway station. And how many commuters are transferring at Penn to a different NJT line or to LIRR? Very, very few.
Well it is a moot point since it can now never be built that way because a property that was going to be used for exits and was going to be taken by eminent domain now has a shiny new and very tall hotel on it. Thankfully.
Why is it that when a plan has flaws, the answer is to cancel it and start over rather than fix the flaws?
sac said:
Why is it that when a plan has flaws, the answer is to cancel it and start over rather than fix the flaws?
because those alleged flaws were being hyped specifically to serve as a justification for spiking the project. Christie was in favor of the project when he was running for governor. It was only when he saw the opportunity to grab the funding to keep from raising the gas tax that the "flaws" became something important.
Not true. The Lackawana Coalition opposed the option with the remote terminal from the get go. Well before Christie talked about cancelling.
the people who actually canceled the project didn't latch on to that issue until they had decided to cancel the project.
But it was an issue and many felt the project should never have been approved in the first place on those terms. Plus I do not recall Chrisite using this as a rationale for the cancellation. He primarily referred to NJ costs being higher than expected and there being no cap.
Interesting. On those terms, I wonder if LIRR riders are protesting the possible routing of some of their lines into Grand Central. After all, there could be a problem and their Penn Station train could be moved.
I am sure some will be upset. But at least they will know exactly what track their trains are going to and leaving from.
ska said:
But it was an issue and many felt the project should never have been approved in the first place on those terms. Plus I do not recall Chrisite using this as a rationale for the cancellation. He primarily referred to NJ costs being higher than expected and there being no cap.
His depiction of the project was typically blustering and deceitful: "They want to build a tunnel to the basement of Macy’s, and stick the New Jersey taxpayers with a bill," he said. You'd think that was pretty funny, unless you were a New Jersey commuter who knew that the "basement of Macy's" in midtown Manhattan is actually Pennsylvania Station, where the commuter trains go.
http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/09/business/la-fi-mh-chris-christie-20140109
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The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse
The fear and loathing that shot up my spine while reading this piece won't soon be forgotten.