The Iran Deal Thread

BCC said:

As I recall, the instability and mistrust were increased under Obama's 8 years in office, 

 Obama in office since 2008, Netanyahu in office since 2009. All Obama's fault, of course.


nohero said:
I suppose you could interpret BCC's comment as a future event, but when he responded he was arguing that the "party left us" train had already left the station.

 You're likely correct, too. As is gerritn by challenging the assumption that Israelis will "safely" say anything after 2020, as there are elections for both the US and Israel before then. It's possible that events could lead Israel to abandon Likud and Netanyahu by that time. So "safely" predicting what Israelis can say in a couple of years is folly.


ridski said:


nohero said:
I suppose you could interpret BCC's comment as a future event, but when he responded he was arguing that the "party left us" train had already left the station.
 You're likely correct, too. As is gerritn by challenging the assumption that Israelis will "safely" say anything after 2020, as there are elections for both the US and Israel before then. It's possible that events could lead Israel to abandon Likud and Netanyahu by that time. So "safely" predicting what Israelis can say in a couple of years is folly.

 "Events" could land Netanyahu in jail.

Why shouldn't American Anti-Semites support Israel? They hope all Jews leave America and go live in Israel. 

The Christian World persecuted the Jews for 1000 years and when they tried but failed to kill all of us they sent us to a place where they could watch Jews and (mostly Muslim) Arabs kill each other. 

Win-win.


I having a little trouble understanding how Israel benefits from a global realignment where it is increasing the U.S. + Israel versus the world.


ml1 said:
Pastor Who Said Jews Are Going to Hell Led Prayer at Jerusalem Embassy Opening


A Dallas evangelical pastor who once said that Jewish people are going to hell and a megachurch televangelist who claimed that Hitler was part of God’s plan to return Jews to Israel both played prominent roles on Monday in the opening ceremony of the new American Embassy in Jerusalem.

Robert Jeffress, who spoke at President Trump’s private inaugural prayer service and is the pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, delivered a prayer at the opening ceremony on Monday, while the Rev. John C. Hagee, a televangelist who founded Christians United for Israel and leads a San Antonio megachurch, gave the closing benediction.

Despite their comments about Jewish people, the two pastors are among the leading pro-Israel voices in the evangelical Christian world. Some evangelicals believe that American foreign policy should support Israel to help fulfill biblical prophecies about the second coming of Christ.

 Respectfully, this is kind of a non issue.  I’m certainly not defending these idiots, but I think we all understand that every Christian believes that all Jews (and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and ...) are going to hell.  It’s fundamental to Christianity that if you don’t believe in Jesus you’re going south.  


but why were these guys speaking at the opening of the embassy?


ml1 said:
but why were these guys speaking at the opening of the embassy?

 because the embassy move was less about supporting Israel and more about supporting American evangelicals. Why were there ANY evangelicals speaking there?


ml1 said:
but why were these guys speaking at the opening of the embassy?

 They are part of the show.   


nohero said:


BCC said:
You have one card to play and keep playing it. If you actually understood what I wrote you would realize the rest of the deck is stacked against you.
 I understood what you wrote.  I showed why you were mistaken.  You wrote -

BCC said:

I think the Israeli's can safely say "We didn't leave the Party. the Party left us".
 I quoted the actual Israeli Prime Minister from shortly before the 2016 election -


nohero said:


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday thanked the United States for the “unprecedented” and “historic” defense aid package, hours before Israeli and US officials were to sign the $38 billion deal in Washington.

“This agreement will ensure an unprecedented level of defense aid for Israel in the next decade,” Netanyahu said in a statement. “This is the largest military aid package the US has ever given out to any nation.”

“The agreement will help us continue building our armed forces, improve our missile defense systems,” he added. “I want to thank President Obama and his administration for this historic agreement.”  ...

Netanyahu acknowledged the recent diplomatic disputes between Jerusalem and Washington, but said they “had no effect whatsoever on the great friendship between Israel and the US.”

“These are disputes you have between family,” Netanyahu said. “This agreement demonstrates the simple truth that the relationship between Israel and the US is strong and powerful.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-thanks-obama-for-historic-military-aid-deal/
 It has nothing to do with "cards".  It's about facts.  You're welcome!

 

You are playing the same card again and obviously have no idea what I was talking about.If that's all you've got there is no need for further discussion.


dave23 said:


BCC said:

As I recall, the instability and mistrust were increased under Obama's 8 years in office, and who gets blamed for the dead Arabs, Hamas who organized these attacks or Israel, defending itself?
 Deliberate provocations, yes. Attacks, no. 

 

Provocations? Molotov cocktails, sling shots, burning kites meant to start fires in Israel, attempts at infiltration, are your idea of provocations? The Hamas charter is also a provocation I suppose.


If anyone has been paying attention, several countries have indicated they will be moving their Embassies to Jerusalem..

It has several times been stated that the Palestinians could have their own Embassy in East Jerusalem with a peace treaty.

And of note is the silence of the Sunni states.


BCC said:


dave23 said:

BCC said:

As I recall, the instability and mistrust were increased under Obama's 8 years in office, and who gets blamed for the dead Arabs, Hamas who organized these attacks or Israel, defending itself?
 Deliberate provocations, yes. Attacks, no. 
 
Provocations? Molotov cocktails, sling shots, burning kites meant to start fires in Israel, attempts at infiltration, are your idea of provocations? The Hamas charter is also a provocation I suppose.

I no longer believe anything that comes out of Netanyahu's propaganda mill.

Sure, there was reprehensible action by some Palestinians. But how much? How many Israeli's were even hurt? Was even one? 

Suppose we have a civil rights protest or whatever. And some, a few, throw bricks at cops. Will that justify mass shooting at demonstrators, including kids?  Will you argue the shooting is justified? Painting all demonstrators as terrorists?


BCC said:

It has several times been stated that the Palestinians could have their own Embassy in East Jerusalem with a peace treaty.


 Sounds simple enough.


BCC said:

If anyone has been paying attention, several countries have indicated they will be moving their Embassies to Jerusalem..

 Everyone else is doing it, Friedrich, so it must be the right thing to do. Why don't you do the right thing, Friedrich? Look, Gerhardt is doing it, and you admire Gerhardt, don't you? So just do it.

It's the right thing to do.


Haaretz certainly "leans left" but is a principal Israeli Newspaper.

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-trump-base-celebrates-jerusalem-embassy-move-u-s-jews-mourn-gaza-deaths-1.6092560


Conspicuously absent from the stage were any mainstream Orthodox, Conservative or Reform rabbis. In the audience, high-level representatives of the U.S. non-Orthodox Jewish majority were few and far between, though not entirely absent. Anti-Defamation League Director Jonathan Greenblatt was in attendance, for example.

Prominent Democratic political leaders – even the long-term, pro-Israel Jewish ones – were nowhere to be found. Former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Daniel Shapiro, who still lives in Israel, was pointedly not invited to the event, despite the fact he went against many of his former colleagues from the Obama White House by supporting and praising the embassy move. No matter: As a non-Orthodox Democrat, he too was persona non grata.

For mainstream American Jewry, being so visibly shut out of an event that many had previously hoped and lobbied for – allied to the event’s dominance by evangelical leaders with controversial views on Jews, Muslims, Mormons and homosexuality – was disturbing enough.

But the fact they were being represented by the likes of Ivanka, Kushner and Adelson, while simultaneously being bombarded with disturbing images of the violence on the Gaza border, triggered a full-on crisis for many.

Sadness and confusion permeated the statements of Jewish leaders, and these sentiments – intensified with anger – exploded across social media.

 



BG9 said:


BCC said:


dave23 said:

BCC said:

As I recall, the instability and mistrust were increased under Obama's 8 years in office, and who gets blamed for the dead Arabs, Hamas who organized these attacks or Israel, defending itself?
 Deliberate provocations, yes. Attacks, no. 
 
Provocations? Molotov cocktails, sling shots, burning kites meant to start fires in Israel, attempts at infiltration, are your idea of provocations? The Hamas charter is also a provocation I suppose.
I no longer believe anything that comes out of Netanyahu's propaganda mill.
Sure, there was reprehensible action by some Palestinians. But how much? How many Israeli's were even hurt? Was even one? 
Suppose we have a civil rights protest or whatever. And some, a few, throw bricks at cops. Will that justify mass shooting at demonstrators, including kids?  Will you argue the shooting is justified? Painting all demonstrators as terrorists?

 

A few bricks thrown at cops?

Some reprehensible actions?

Did you actually watch what was taking place a couple of days ago?

Molotov cocktails, slingshots, burning kites, attempts to overrun a barrier (or what purpose?) are the same as a few bricks,and some reprehensible actions – right ?


ridski said:


BCC said:

If anyone has been paying attention, several countries have indicated they will be moving their Embassies to Jerusalem..
 Everyone else is doing it, Friedrich, so it must be the right thing to do. Why don't you do the right thing, Friedrich? Look, Gerhardt is doing it, and you admire Gerhardt, don't you? So just do it.

It's the right thing to do.

 

On Wednesday, Guatemala followed the U.S. lead, festively opening its new Jerusalem mission with Guatemalan President Jimmy Morales saying his country was bringing a message of "love, peace and fraternity" to Israel. Paraguay said it also will move its embassy to Jerusalem. Romania, the Czech Republic and Honduras have said they are considering doing the same.

Couldn't find a Friedrich in the bunch.

 


BCC said:


On Wednesday, Guatemala followed the U.S. lead, festively opening its new Jerusalem mission with Guatemalan President Jimmy Morales saying his country was bringing a message of "love, peace and fraternity" to Israel. Paraguay said it also will move its embassy to Jerusalem. Romania, the Czech Republic and Honduras have said they are considering doing the same.

Couldn't find a Friedrich in the bunch.
 

And Bibi, Trump and Hamas all got what they wanted. What a week! 


There is no more fearsome weapon then a burning kite.


dave23 said:


BCC said:
On Wednesday, Guatemala followed the U.S. lead, festively opening its new Jerusalem mission with Guatemalan President Jimmy Morales saying his country was bringing a message of "love, peace and fraternity" to Israel. Paraguay said it also will move its embassy to Jerusalem. Romania, the Czech Republic and Honduras have said they are considering doing the same.

Couldn't find a Friedrich in the bunch.
 
And Bibi, Trump and Hamas all got what they wanted. What a week! 

 

You are right. Bibi got the Embassy moved, Trump made good on a promise 3 previous President reneged on, and Hamas got what they wanted.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/hamas-gaza-protest-martyrdom-operation/


drummerboy said:
There is no more fearsome weapon then a burning kite.

 You don't know why those kites were flying do you?


BCC said:


You are right. Bibi got the Embassy moved, Trump made good on a promise 3 previous President reneged on, and Hamas got what they wanted.

 Obama, Bush and Clinton promised to move the American embassy to Jerusalem?


BCC said:


drummerboy said:
There is no more fearsome weapon then a burning kite.
 You don't know why those kites were flying do you?

 Doesn't matter. Clearly it's a capital offense regardless, right?


dave23 said:


BCC said:

You are right. Bibi got the Embassy moved, Trump made good on a promise 3 previous President reneged on, and Hamas got what they wanted.
 Obama, Bush and Clinton promised to move the American embassy to Jerusalem?

I'm pretty sure both political parties have had a mention of it in their platforms, although it's been pretty vague and open-ended. 


BCC said:

Couldn't find a Friedrich in the bunch.
 

 It's what's known as a "rhetorical Friedrich."

c.f. "Schrodinger's Gerhardt."


dave23 said:


BCC said:

You are right. Bibi got the Embassy moved, Trump made good on a promise 3 previous President reneged on, and Hamas got what they wanted.
 Obama, Bush and Clinton promised to move the American embassy to Jerusalem?

 

Yes.

Perhaps this will help

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/19/world/middleeast/jerusalem-us-embassy-trump.html


BCC said:


BG9 said:

BCC said:


dave23 said:

BCC said:

As I recall, the instability and mistrust were increased under Obama's 8 years in office, and who gets blamed for the dead Arabs, Hamas who organized these attacks or Israel, defending itself?
 Deliberate provocations, yes. Attacks, no. 
 
Provocations? Molotov cocktails, sling shots, burning kites meant to start fires in Israel, attempts at infiltration, are your idea of provocations? The Hamas charter is also a provocation I suppose.
I no longer believe anything that comes out of Netanyahu's propaganda mill.
Sure, there was reprehensible action by some Palestinians. But how much? How many Israeli's were even hurt? Was even one? 
Suppose we have a civil rights protest or whatever. And some, a few, throw bricks at cops. Will that justify mass shooting at demonstrators, including kids?  Will you argue the shooting is justified? Painting all demonstrators as terrorists?
 
A few bricks thrown at cops?
Some reprehensible actions?
Did you actually watch what was taking place a couple of days ago?
Molotov cocktails, slingshots, burning kites, attempts to overrun a barrier (or what purpose?) are the same as a few bricks,and some reprehensible actions – right ?

 All one has to do is see the disparity between Israeli and Palestinian killed and injured. To see where the real violence is.


ml1 said:


dave23 said:

BCC said:

You are right. Bibi got the Embassy moved, Trump made good on a promise 3 previous President reneged on, and Hamas got what they wanted.
 Obama, Bush and Clinton promised to move the American embassy to Jerusalem?
I'm pretty sure both political parties have had a mention of it in their platforms, although it's been pretty vague and open-ended. 

 Yes, it was always meant to part of a larger negotiation. I don't recall it ever being a straight-up promise, but I could be wrong.


drummerboy said:


BCC said:

drummerboy said:
There is no more fearsome weapon then a burning kite.
 You don't know why those kites were flying do you?
 Doesn't matter. Clearly it's a capital offense regardless, right?

 IOWs you don't know.


The kites were on fire and were meant to burn up Israeli crops, which a number of them did.

Would you now like to address the Molotov cocktails and sling shots?


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