Pope Francis, Catholics, and Christians in the news & Bible verses

Robert_Casotto said:
Thy Kingdom Come
Thy Will be done
On Earth
As it is in Heaven.

Allahu Akbar


Robert_Casotto said:
Thy Kingdom Come
Thy Will be done
On Earth
As it is in Heaven.

Conservative, racist and pro rape?  The Twitler Trifecta! 


I'm sure Robert heard these words this morning.

Blessed are you who are poor,
for the kingdom of God is yours.
Blessed are you who are now hungry,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who are now weeping,
for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you,
and when they exclude and insult you,
and denounce your name as evil
on account of the Son of Man.
Rejoice and leap for joy on that day!
Behold, your reward will be great in heaven.
For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.
But woe to you who are rich,
for you have received your consolation.
Woe to you who are filled now,
for you will be hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will grieve and weep.
Woe to you when all speak well of you,
for their ancestors treated the false
prophets in this way.”

Luke 6:20-26.


I am not Catholic  but some members of my family are.  Furthermore, some other members of my family are Jewish by virtue of inter-faith marriage...although both they and my Orthodox good friend whose husband is the local rabbi tell me that "Reformed" and inter-marriage is a disqualifying condition in certain circles.  Regardless, I can't help but note what I believe is an intriguing difference on MOL.  In another thread, it is being debated whether saying anything that is critical of Israel amounts to defacto anti-semitism and should not be allowed. Yet, in this thread, there are many posters who regularly refer to members of the Catholic faith (not just clergy who have been found to have committed sexual violence) with disparagement and name-calling...as though anyone who remains Catholic must support sexual assault.  Why is it not similarly permissible to think that all Jews support Israel policy toward Palestine?   Why the difference?   Obviously, the need to prevent another holocaust is part of it...but that only explains one half of the equation.  Just curious, I guess...


Norman_Bates said:
I am not Catholic  but some members of my family are.  Furthermore, some other members of my family are Jewish by virtue of inter-faith marriage...although both they and my Orthodox good friend whose husband is the local rabbi tell me that "Reformed" and inter-marriage is a disqualifying condition in certain circles.  Regardless, I can't help but note what I believe is an intriguing difference on MOL.  In another thread, it is being debated whether saying anything that is critical of Israel amounts to defacto anti-semitism and should not be allowed. Yet, in this thread, there are many posters who regularly refer to members of the Catholic faith (not just clergy who have been found to have committed sexual violence) with disparagement and name-calling...as though anyone who remains Catholic must support sexual assault.  Why is it not similarly permissible to think that all Jews support Israel policy toward Palestine?   Why the difference?   Obviously, the need to prevent another holocaust is part of it...but that only explains one half of the equation.  Just curious, I guess...

Maybe because switching churches is a lot simpler than switching countries?


I'd say my posts on this thread in recent years go about 50/50.  I am  a big fan of Pope Francis and a big opponent of raping kids (or nuns or, honestly, anyone).  I wouldn't say that I am anti Catholic.  Most of my family comes from a Catholic background although our personal experience with the rape apocalypse has left few of us willing to cross the threshold of a Catholic Church.



A cabal of pedophiles preyed on disabled children. Sadly, the Vatican and the Pope Francis knew of this, yet no action was taken.

 When investigators swept in and raided the religious Antonio Provolo Institute for the Deaf, they uncovered one of the worst cases yet among the global abuse scandals plaguing the Catholic Church: a place of silent torment where prosecutors say pedophiles preyed on the most isolated and submissive children.

The scope of the alleged abuse was vast. Charges are pending against 13 suspects; a 14th person pleaded guilty to sexual abuse, including rape, and was sentenced to 10 years in prison. The case of the accused ringleader — an octogenarian Italian priest named Nicola Corradi — is set to go before a judge next month.
...
Did the Catholic Church have any sense that he could be a danger to children?

The answer, according to a Washington Post investigation that included a review of court and church documents, private letters, and dozens of interviews in Argentina and Italy, is that church officials up to and including Pope Francis were warned repeatedly and directly about a group of alleged predators that included Corradi.

Yet they took no apparent action against him.

Abuse of deaf children on two continents points to Vatican failings


There’s been an awful lot of awful news in the last few weeks, and not just from the Catholic Church. However the Catholic Church, worldwide, has grabbed a lot of headlines because its hierarchy is so centralused and has spent decades if not centuries cementing its attitudes and public messaging about sexual violence and child abuse. 

You may not have heard the latest news, or the details, of former cardinal George Pell’s case, just released to the public

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-26/george-pell-guilty-child-sexual-abuse-court-trial/10837564 


Our media coverage laws are different here, and when this was in the courts last year international journalists (especially US journos) were confused about the suppression order and its standing in law.

This article explain the legal and ethical issues for those who are interested

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-26/george-pell-trial-why-cardinal-court-case-held-in-secret/10233118


In other news, something of a surprise.

Declaring that the Catholic Church is unafraid of history, Pope Francis announced that documents in the Vatican Secret Archives relating to the wartime pontificate of Pope Pius XII will be open to scholars in 2020.

Researchers, particularly those interested in Catholic-Jewish relations, have pressed the Vatican to open the archives and allow a full study of Pope Pius' actions during the war, including what he did or failed to do for Jews during the Holocaust.

"The church is not afraid of history, on the contrary, she loves it and would like to love it more and better, just as she loves God. Therefore, with the same confidence as my predecessors, I open and entrust to researchers" this wealth of documents, Pope Francis said.

The pope met March 4 with supervisors, staff members and assistants working at the Vatican Secret Archives during an audience to mark the 80th anniversary of Pope Pius XII's election March 2, 1939.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/pope-announces-access-wartime-documents-vatican-secret-archives


So they have spent the last 13 years cataloging, sorting, and organizing files so that they can be accessible to scholars in 2020.  Sounds fishy to me. 


Red_Barchetta said:
So they have spent the last 13 years cataloging, sorting, and organizing files so that they can be accessible to scholars in 2020.  Sounds fishy to me. 

 Remember when they were finally making the original tranche of Dead Sea Scrolls ready for truly open academic sharing, regardless of faith? Twenty or Twenty-five years back? There was a lot of comment at that time that many manuscripts and fragments weren't released or available; turns out the leading religious scholar in charge of the Vatican's team had kept at least 2/3 of the documents back because 'we haven't had time to study them yet'. (After many decades. Which why they were being opened to wider study.)


joanne said:


Red_Barchetta said:
So they have spent the last 13 years cataloging, sorting, and organizing files so that they can be accessible to scholars in 2020.  Sounds fishy to me. 
 Remember when they were finally making the original tranche of Dead Sea Scrolls ready for truly open academic sharing, regardless of faith? Twenty or Twenty-five years back? There was a lot of comment at that time that many manuscripts and fragments weren't released or available; turns out the leading religious scholar in charge of the Vatican's team had kept at least 2/3 of the documents back because 'we haven't had time to study them yet'. (After many decades. Which why they were being opened to wider study.)

 Joanne, I had to look that one up.  Actually, there was no "Vatican Team" because the scrolls weren't at the Vatican.  Also, the editor-in-chief (who was criticized for the slowness) wasn't a priest, and didn't work for the Vatican.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/professor-john-strugnell-dead-sea-scrolls-project-editor-765721.html

There was a book published around that time alleging a conspiracy to suppress some of the scrolls.  The Biblical Archeology Review called the book “hogwash … Their central thesis is so badly flawed as to be ludicrous.”

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/archaeologists-biblical-scholars-works/the-passing-of-a-conspiracy-theorist/

(That second link is to a column by that review's author)

But there are always conspiracy theories.


Red_Barchetta said:
So they have spent the last 13 years cataloging, sorting, and organizing files so that they can be accessible to scholars in 2020.  Sounds fishy to me. 

 His Papacy lasted 19 years.   I would think that's a lot of paper, to identify each one and then do the other work.


nohero said:


Red_Barchetta said:
So they have spent the last 13 years cataloging, sorting, and organizing files so that they can be accessible to scholars in 2020.  Sounds fishy to me. 
 His Papacy lasted 19 years.   I would think that's a lot of paper, to identify each one and then do the other work.

 If you mean identify the incriminating documents and dispose of them we are in agreement.   


Red_Barchetta said:


nohero said:

Red_Barchetta said:
So they have spent the last 13 years cataloging, sorting, and organizing files so that they can be accessible to scholars in 2020.  Sounds fishy to me. 
 His Papacy lasted 19 years.   I would think that's a lot of paper, to identify each one and then do the other work.
 If you mean identify the incriminating documents and dispose of them we are in agreement.   

 No, I mean the ordinary work of archiving an enormous body of work.  


nohero said:


Red_Barchetta said:
So they have spent the last 13 years cataloging, sorting, and organizing files so that they can be accessible to scholars in 2020.  Sounds fishy to me. 
 His Papacy lasted 19 years.   I would think that's a lot of paper, to identify each one and then do the other work.

 Let Google do it.


mtierney said:
Joanne, I would be interested in hearing your view on this...
https://thejesuitpost.org/2019/03/did-cardinal-pell-get-a-fair-trial/

 I can’t speak publicly about it any more, because I’ve worked with some of the Ballarat region survivors. I’m likely to overstep professional boundaries if we start a debate. 

What you probably haven’t heard is that today we’ve heard that a bishop has been telling schools that they no longer need to do police/background checks on priests who work with school students; and a high school Legal Studies teacher was told by her school principal not to mention the Pell case or answer any questions on anything to do with anything relating to it. 


Re the Scrolls: it’s splitting hairs to say ‘there wasn’t a Vatican team’, when the scrolls were under Vatican protection and embargo, and Father (something with a V I believe) was so heavily involved for so many years as chief translator and also controlled who had access to fragments and when. The research team reported directly to a Vatican office close to the Pope; they rarely shared their findings; a lot of the work was found to be mistranslated in light of more recent finds that offer different perspectives of Biblical times. (There’s a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s that’s really eye-opening and not conspiracy theory  but is contained in other historians’ biographies and research notes. I learnt heaps from my lecturers; Elaine Paigels notes some in her early works)


joanne said:Re the Scrolls: it’s splitting hairs to say ‘there wasn’t a Vatican team’, when the scrolls were under Vatican protection and embargo, and Father (something with a V I believe) was so heavily involved for so many years as chief translator and also controlled who had access to fragments and when. The research team reported directly to a Vatican office close to the Pope; they rarely shared their findings; a lot of the work was found to be mistranslated in light of more recent finds that offer different perspectives of Biblical times. (There’s a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s that’s really eye-opening and not conspiracy theory  but is contained in other historians’ biographies and research notes. I learnt heaps from my lecturers; Elaine Paigels notes some in her early works)

Joanne, I'm afraid that's just not true.  

Here's a link to a website from the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA), describing the study and publication of the scrolls under the authority of the IAA:

https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/learn-about-the-scrolls/discovery-and-publication

And an article from the IAA, also describing where they've been located and conserved:

http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_eng.aspx?sec_id=17&sub_subj_id=522#MMMas

They have been conserved and studied in Israel.  There was no Vatican embargo, and the researchers didn't report to a Vatican office.

[Edited to add] Re: "a lot of the work was found to be mistranslated in light of more recent finds that offer different perspectives of Biblical times"

Absolutely true.  That's a function of what the scholars learn from new discoveries and analysis.


Except when that man died (I'm sorry I can't remember his name), they found a stack of missing archival material in his possession. In the monastery where he'd retired. It was major news at the time, and history circles were aghast and full of it. 

It's all smoothed over now, to make academic peace. 

As I said earlier, some of my own lecturers in the '70s were affected by the original team's protocols. 

Adding:  I know I have some older copies of various translations, but at present all I can find is a first edition of Pagels' Gnostic Gospels (on the Nag Hammedi scrolls), from '79.  This place is too small for us to have all our books out, so it's possible they're still packed in boxes. The editorial notes explain the difficulties in accessing and verifying the text and the translations, and detail the processes for scholarly accreditation in order to be able to gain access to a small scrap. 

Archival articles in Arts & Literature Daily, going back some twelve or more years, within the history and archaeology fields discussed the difficulties and scandals. There were also short articles at the time, on scroll discoveries and access 'rights', in Archaeology News Network blog.


mtierney, you might find this article on local developments in Church/community relations illuminating

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-08/george-pell-article-pulled-from-catholic-standard/10885412


“illuminating” —and very scary


Well, it’s not just Pell making news here so in many ways it’s not so surprising:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-08/former-villanova-college-priest-found-guilty-indecent-dealing/10882988

We’ve had about 6 historical cases prominently in the national news over the past month.


mtierney said:
“illuminating” —and very scary

 You are back to form, I see.

The author defending Cardinal Pell in the op-ed is free to say he cannot reconcile the man he knows with the convicted child predator that is now public for all to see; he did not need to add insult to injury to the victims by decrying their "wickedness".


I took mtierney's comment to mean 'it's scary that the Church is pandering to community expectation in censoring its public comments'. Different angle altogether. 

This aspect was raised in federal Parliament, where Senate discussed community disappointment that the Catholic Church hasn't learnt from its experiences of the Royal Commission, the testimonies of the survivors, the ongoing cases, the fallout over Pell, etc yet has decided to forgo the national standards in child safety and vulnerable people background checks. 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/08/children-check-row-shows-catholic-church-has-learned-nothing-says-senator


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/andrew-bolt-please-stop-implying-that-you-know-all-the-facts-about-george-pell




A momentous morning, in some ways. Some would argue that the sentence is insufficient, but there's so much more in play, the ramifications are certainly huge. 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2019/mar/13/cardinal-george-pell-sentenced-child-sexual-assault-live

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-13/cardinal-george-pell-sentenced-for-sexually-abusing-choirboys/10876012

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-13/george-pell-sentencing-inside-the-court/10896292

If you've followed the morning's proceedings, you'll see there was a lot of discussion on the impact of imprisonment on Pell's health, and the potential for threats or actual violence from other inmates, so he'll be isolated for his almost-4 years inside. 

We've also had a rash of articles explaining 'cognitive dissonance' and how it works as a protective measure in close-knit families and communities, particularly with with very upsetting revelations because that calls into question all kinds of other value judgements and ethical standards required for social cohesion. 

So, please, no jumping on anyone - the man has been sentenced for his crimes. The Church is going to have to face up to the inadequacy of its protocols and internal mechanisms for handling both the opportunity for such conduct and the charges that it's taken place. 


Another icon of John Paul's Church falls.

Activists pulled down a statue of the Rev. Henryk Jankowski in Gdansk, Poland, in February. The priest, who died in 2010, has been accused of sexually abusing children.


Apparently, the Church is admitting that its priests assaulted 625 Polish children in the years since 1990 which means that the actual numbers are probably in the thousands if not tens of thousands.

Archbishop Stanislaw Gadecki said “What is the point of dealing with this problem in the Catholic Church if that problem persists in other groups of the society?

The archbishop sounds like a man after mtierney's own heart.  Good to see that conservative Catholicism continues to reign supreme in Poland, even if other parts of the Church are moving towards the light.

NYT: Catholic Church in Poland Releases Study on Sexual Abuse by Priests


In Poland, like the US, the Church hierarchy actively worked to facilitate the attacks upon children.

In a report released during the Vatican meeting, Don’t Be Afraid listed 24 Polish bishops who, it said, failed to report priests who had sexually abused minors, letting them stay in ministry and often continue to work with children.


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