What does Putin want (and whatabout it)

PVW said:

Can you even imagine 1840s MOL? Or worse, 1860s? Sure, the seizure of western territories and expansion of slavery into them is bad, but the real crime against humanity is the debasement of gold with silver and Lincoln's unconstitutional income tax...

Nihil novum sub sole


Here's some from an interview with Oliver Stone on Feb 11 - The title is American Exceptionalism on Display in Ukraine:

Top paragraph is in regards to NATO being a huge threat and enemy to Russia:

And this is—it’s not working, and what Putin is saying in general is: lay off; back away. You cannot run war exercises all the time on our borders; you cannot talk this language of calling us the aggressor. And that’s what’s very interesting to me, is the United States media always say—every day I see it in the newspaper or this or that—the Russian invasion, the coming Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Now, this is outrageous, because first of all, they have no proof that Russia intends to invade Ukraine; I doubt that they would. I think Russia is concerned only with the Donbass region. The Donbass region being the eastern sector where the Russian-speaking people are threatened by the Ukrainian government. Why? Because, we saw back in 2014, they were killing them. There was quite a bit of murder going on, and the Ukrainian government did not want to recognize the historic autonomy of the eastern Ukraine, of the people who speak Russian. In fact, Russian language was banned in Ukraine, if you remember correctly.
And there’s been a general strong, almost nationalistic attack on Russia from those years. And we know about the old Nazis, the Nazis from World War II, their inheritors are in Ukraine; there’s quite a few fascist people there who are working and putting pressure on the government to attack Donbass. You saw what happened, if you remember correctly, in Odessa, when the Russian-speaking natives were surrounded in a building and the Ukrainian nationalists burned them alive. That was a horrible moment, and what was it, 20 or 30 dead. And it was shocking to the world, and gave us the intention, showed us the intention of the Ukrainian government.

It sounds very similar to some people out there who rail against the MSM on a daily basis.


I have to admit that I have no clue as to who or what to believe about Donbass.


jamie said:

Here's some from an interview with Oliver Stone on Feb 11 - The title is American Exceptionalism on Display in Ukraine:

...

And there’s been a general strong, almost nationalistic attack on Russia from those years. And we know about the old Nazis, the Nazis from World War II, their inheritors are in Ukraine; there’s quite a few fascist people there who are working and putting pressure on the government to attack Donbass. You saw what happened, if you remember correctly, in Odessa, when the Russian-speaking natives were surrounded in a building and the Ukrainian nationalists burned them alive. That was a horrible moment, and what was it, 20 or 30 dead. And it was shocking to the world, and gave us the intention, showed us the intention of the Ukrainian government.


The incident described by Oliver Stone took place in 2014, when there were riots all over Ukraine to protest the President, who eventually fled. Only a Putin propagandist would say that it "showed us the intention of the Ukrainian government" today.


Here are some "coming attractions", what Putin is saying today and what his apologists will be posting later. 


nohero said:

I'm not "yelling 'Hitler'", I'm pointing out that you want us to watch film propaganda that serves the interests of an autocrat who is invading a neighboring country and trying to subjugate its people.

As you well know (since this is the same film brought up here on MOL when excuses were being made for Trump), most of the people on this thread are very familiar with the arguments, and familiar with all of the refutations.

The film is not about Putin. The film is about US involvement in the 2014 coup and NATO and US backed far right groups. You watch CNN et al. Propaganda cannot not be a reason you can use to not watch something. 


nan said:

The film is not about Putin. The film is about US involvement in the 2014 coup and NATO and US backed far right groups. You watch CNN et al. Propaganda cannot not be a reason you can use to not watch something. 

Pretend the 2014 events were authentically Ukrainian. How would that have looked differently than what did happen in 2014? What signs can we look for to distinguish a genuine revolution from a CIA coup?


nan said:

The film is not about Putin. The film is about US involvement in the 2014 coup and NATO and US backed far right groups. You watch CNN et al. Propaganda cannot not be a reason you can use to not watch something. 

Yes, I know that's what the film is about.  We all knew that when you posted it a couple of years ago here. And now you're posting it in a thread about what Putin wants, so it very much is about how Putin wants to spread his version of "history".


A little about another star of nan's highly recommended Oliver Stone doc:

On 11 December 2009, Yanukovych called for his supporters to go to Maidan Nezalezhnosti, Kyiv's Independence Square, in case of election fraud. (hmm, sounds like someone else who declared fraud before an election.)

He finally did win after spending 100-150 million - Tad Devine, an associate of Rick Gates and Paul Manafort, wrote Yanukovych's victory speech.

Like Putin - he must be an amazing investor. Most of his career he made around $2,000 a month. But with proper investing he was able to afford a 75 million dollar house!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezhyhirya_Residence

To read more about one of the stars of nan's recommend video: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych

And finally - like T**** it sounds like he's on standby to assume his proper role as president:

Russia launched an full-scale invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022. On 2 March, Ukrayinska Pravda reported that Ukrainian intelligence sources believed that Viktor Yanukovych was currently in Minsk, Belarus and that it was Russia's intention to declare Yanukovych as President of Ukraine in the event of Russian forces gaining control of Kyiv.


jamie said:

nan said:

So, you don't want to hear what Putin says, you just want to decide what he's like based on how he lives in your mind?  Having Putin as one of the people who speaks about Ukraine makes it a worthwhile movie even if you despise him. 

Did you also like the Interviews with Oliver Stone as well? What is his fascination with this guy:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-putin-interviews-oliver-stones-wildly-irresponsible-love-letter-to-vladimir-putin

I'm glad you think listening to Putin is worthwhile - I've personally sat through a lot of his garbage.    I've heard enough, again very one sided.  

That Daily Beast article, a journalistic embarrassment written by the "Senior Entertainment Editor" is hardly a substantial critique.  

 I have listened to the Oliver Stone's interviews and I recommend them, especially for someone with a Disney cartoon view of Putin.   I'm not saying this in hopes of you being won over by Putin's charm.  I'm saying it in the spirit of "keep your enemies closer."   Also, he does talk a bunch about NATO, which some of you have been brainwashed to think has nothing to do with this invasion -- but that's just nuts. He's been talking about NATO since forever as discussed in this excellent article by Chris Hedges.  This war, a huge tragedy,  could have been avoided with some simple precautions. 

Hedges: Chronicle of a War Foretold

https://scheerpost.com/2022/02/24/hedges-the-chronicle-of-a-war-foretold/


nan said:

That Daily Beast article, a journalistic embarrassment written by the "Senior Entertainment Editor" is hardly a substantial critique.  

 I have listened to the Oliver Stone's interviews and I recommend them, especially for someone with a Disney cartoon view of Putin.   I'm not saying this in hopes of you being won over by Putin's charm.  I'm saying it in the spirit of "keep your enemies closer."   Also, he does talk a bunch about NATO, which some of you have been brainwashed to think has nothing to do with this invasion -- but that's just nuts. He's been talking about NATO since forever as discussed in this excellent article by Chris Hedges.  This war, a huge tragedy,  could have been avoided with some simple precautions. 

Hedges: Chronicle of a War Foretold

https://scheerpost.com/2022/02/24/hedges-the-chronicle-of-a-war-foretold/

thanks for the history lesson - nice read at the same time a nuclear power plant is under attack.  tongue wink Putin is ill.  His actions are insane.  Do you actually have anything of substance to share here?

When when you realize that NATO is purely an excuse for Vlad!  Fortunately the Russian people aren't extremely happy about his actions either.


PVW said:

nan said:

The film is not about Putin. The film is about US involvement in the 2014 coup and NATO and US backed far right groups. You watch CNN et al. Propaganda cannot not be a reason you can use to not watch something. 

Pretend the 2014 events were authentically Ukrainian. How would that have looked differently than what did happen in 2014? What signs can we look for to distinguish a genuine revolution from a CIA coup?

Watch the movie. I'm guessing the protests would have remained more peaceful.  


nan said:

That Daily Beast article, a journalistic embarrassment written by the "Senior Entertainment Editor" is hardly a substantial critique.  

Whatabout the Yanukovich posts - are you buying his version of events in the movie?


I haven't seen any movie, but we should recognize there are nazis fighting with Ukrainians against Russia at the moment (enemy of my enemy is my friend).  The organization is named AZOV and were the ones carrying out murders in the Donbass region eight years ago (and likely ongoing since).  AZOV's actions paved the way for Putin to make semi-legitimate claims and build a larger propaganda platform with a small patina of truth.  However, AZOV has only had one member elected to the Rada; a very marginalized group akin to the Proud Boys.


jamie said:

thanks for the history lesson - nice read at the same time a nuclear power plant is under attack. 
tongue wink
Putin is ill.  His actions are insane.  Do you actually have anything of substance to share here?

When when you realize that NATO is purely an excuse for Vlad!  Fortunately the Russian people aren't extremely happy about his actions either.

Did you read the article?  It's an excellent, well written summary of the situation including the history.  It does not attempt to psychologically analyze the leader of a country, ignore a HUGE, longstanding issue, and attempt to speak for all people in Russia.  

This ignorance would be no big deal were it not common, pushed by the MSM and increasingly likely to lead to nuclear war. 

The Overton Window Is Being Shoved Toward Warmongering Extremism

"The virulent post-9/11-like hysteria about Russia that has been promoted by one-sided mass media reporting on the war, and by the five years of fact-free conspiracy mongering which preceded it, has created an environment where you’ll get shouted down on social media for voicing any opinion about this conflict apart from saying Putin invaded because he is evil and hates freedom. Voices calling for diplomacy, de-escalation and detente are being systematically drowned out."

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/03/04/the-overton-window-is-being-shoved-toward-warmongering-extremism/


jamie said:

Whatabout the Yanukovich posts - are you buying his version of events in the movie?

Did you watch the movie?  What specifically are you disagreeing with?


Nice - it's all the MSM's fault - LOL.   Not surprising for you.

Do you have family in Europe?  Do you know what living under a Russian regime is like?


nan said:

Did you watch the movie?  What specifically are you disagreeing with?

I watched enough to see how delusional it is.  I'm surprised you are buying it.  


with all these "sources" nan is pulling in, I feel kind of dirty, like I need to wash the slime off.


jamie said:

nan said:

Did you watch the movie?  What specifically are you disagreeing with?

I watched enough to see how delusional it is.  I'm surprised you are buying it.  

surprised? are you really? She still thinks Hillary stole the nomination from Bernie.


jamie said:

Nice - it's all the MSM's fault - LOL.   Not surprising for you.

Do you have family in Europe?  Do you know what living under a Russian regime is like?

It's getting worse everyday but you don't care because you are fine with one sided neocon views. I saw you put up a thread about censorship in Europe.  I'm guessing you have no idea about censorship in the US which gets worse every week.  Twitter/Facebook, etc.  have been shutting down alternative views daily.  Many of the people I read and respect have been shut down and I expect more to follow. The US is prosecuting a journalist for doing journalism. They even had a plot to kill him.  But, I'm sure you think only Putin does such things. 


jamie said:

I watched enough to see how delusional it is.  I'm surprised you are buying it.  

How much did you watch?  What was delusional?  


nan said:

It's getting worse everyday but you don't care because you are fine with one sided neocon views. I saw you put up a thread about censorship in Europe.  I'm guessing you have no idea about censorship in the US which gets worse every week.  Twitter/Facebook, etc.  have been shutting down alternative views daily.  Many of the people I read and respect have been shut down and I expect more to follow. The US is prosecuting a journalist for doing journalism. They even had a plot to kill him.  But, I'm sure you think only Putin does such things. 

I don't think Putin is the only one.  But he happens to be threatening the world a bit more then most people at this time.  

Who was shut off of Twitter FB lately that you're missing?


drummerboy said:

with all these "sources" nan is pulling in, I feel kind of dirty, like I need to wash the slime off.

Right, lots of personal attacks no substance.  You have not changed a bit.  


nan said:

How much did you watch?  What was delusional?  

Believing anything Putin and Yanukovych say.  Did you see my posts about Yanukovych from earlier?  Will you be happy if he's resumes the presidency?  Do you  think this will be the best move for Ukraine?


BTW "Ukraine on Fire" is literally happening right now - thanks to a war started by . . . . . . Vlad.  Do you dispute this?  Or is it justified cause of the MSM and NATO?

At least in the USA will can still say WAR!  grin


jamie said:

BTW "Ukraine on Fire" is literally happening right now - thanks to a war started by . . . . . . Vlad.  Do you dispute this?  Or is it justified cause of the MSM and NATO?

At least in the USA will can still say WAR! 
grin

I condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine.  I'm very anti-war.  And Putin is responsible for the invasion.  The US and NATO have a large part to play in this outcome.  They are the ones telling you it's a singular mad man bent on world domination but if you look at history, they are clearly projecting.

And yes, in the USA you can say WAR all you like because that's what they like best!  They have one narrative allowed and it's WAR, WAR, WAR, WAR, and more WAR. As long as you don't mention their involvement in dozens of coups and military bases all over the world and when they illegally invaded a foreign country while they are condemning another for doing the same. You have to always say that America is the good guys who only fight for freedom and they are now going to lie us into WWIII and you will completely agree with that and think it's a good thing. 

Calls for Ukrainian no-fly zone, though still a minority, are growing and dangerous


Greenwald - shocker!

My narrative isn't war.  My hope is in the citizen's of Russia and the parent on the Russian soldiers coming home dead who thought they were on a military exercise.

The need for the likes of you and Greenwald to pound in the MSM/US/NATO blame game does zilch is the big picture. 

From what I see, Vlad is killing Ukrainians AND Russians in this conflict.  It will ultimately be his undoing,

Instead of giving us a 50 minute video (nan 101) - tell us what you got out of it - perhaps point to a five minute section.

I will not watch a video that merely highlights tweets - or is there more to it?  The Twitterverse is full of morons who think they know it all.

I would like to see a fund to help the Russians who are protesting, to help with any arrest expenses, or would see this as more interference from the West over Vlad's fragile ego?


Has Greenwald taken the high road yet, like Taibbi, and apologized for all of his wrong predictions prior to the war starting?


Nan,

If I understand you correctly, the West should have simply stood by as Putin forced Ukraine into the Russian sphere by whatever means he felt necessary.  What about the Baltic States?

So, tell me, in a world where tribal and religious boundaries often don't align with national boundaries, when is it appropriate for nations to have strong opinions (embargoes, opposition support, etc.) about the internal affairs of some other nation?

Should we have allowed Serbia to retain Kosovo by bloody force.  Should we have allowed Gaddafi to suppress the rebel uprising? (There wouldn't have been a Benghazi, at least.)


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