The Trump Indictments

nohero said:

I read a persuasive discussion of the effect of Count Twelve in the indictment, "Falsifying Business Records". The Trump Organization runs on debt, and debt is governed by loan documents, and loan documents have covenants about the truthfulness of the information provided to the lender.

Counts 12, 13 and 14 allege falsified W-2 forms from three consecutive years. Did the discussion address whether W-2 forms are typically provided to lenders?


DaveSchmidt said:

nohero said:

Existing lenders can demand to see the books, and call the loans if there's a discrepancy; new lenders aren't going to want Trump Organization debt (imagine being a bank official trying to convince the bank to take on more Trump debt).

Like Rosemary Vrablic at Deutsche Bank, who succeeded.

Ms. Vrablic and her boss championed the Trump relationship. But it was polarizing inside the bank. Some senior executives argued it was too risky to lend to Mr. Trump, given his history of not repaying loans, including in 2008 when he defaulted on a large loan from Deutsche Bank on his Chicago skyscraper. Those concerns, however, were overruled, and the relationship with Mr. Trump progressed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/business/trump-deutsche-bank-rosemary-vrablic.html

Right, she succeeded against common sense and logic, probably due to Trump's bluster and reputation at the time (2013) and the possibility he might actually be a political force in 2016.

Two aspects of that story demonstrate how Trump is in trouble now:

1. The bank accepted the financial representations from the Trump Organization, as not being over-inflated or otherwise false. Hard to see that happening as easily now.

2. The article was prompted by her leaving her job: "Mr. Trump’s key contacts at his biggest financial backer are leaving at a perilous time for the departing president." He needs to find other bank officials willing to take the risks.


nohero said:

1. The bank accepted the financial representations from the Trump Organization, as not being over-inflated or otherwise false. Hard to see that happening as easily now.

Sure it did. Sure it is.

The Money Behind Trump’s Money (NYT)

DaveSchmidt said:

Did the discussion address whether W-2 forms are typically provided to lenders?

I guess not.


Trump could ask for loans from some Hong Kong Triads, but the interest is steep and they have guys who collect, day or night. 


dave said:

Trump could ask for loans from some Hong Kong Triads, but the interest is steep and they have guys who collect, day or night. 

 My brain just went to this crazy place where the Secret Service has to guard a former President from organized crime goons. 


mrincredible said:

dave said:

Trump could ask for loans from some Hong Kong Triads, but the interest is steep and they have guys who collect, day or night. 

 My brain just went to this crazy place where the Secret Service has to guard a former President from organized crime goons. 

Awesome action film potential.


nohero said:

Awesome action film potential.

 people are saying it's the greatest film they've ever seen. Better than The Godfather. With only the best people in it. 


So it looks like Trump is likely to get indicted over the Stormy Daniels payoff thing.

It's not the best case to get him on, if you ask me. Too technical, too hard to explain. Will definitely help him more than hurt him.

And not much chance of a perp walk.

Would much rather seem something come out of Georgia.


drummerboy said:

So it looks like Trump is likely to get indicted over the Stormy Daniels payoff thing.

It's not the best case to get him on, if you ask me. Too technical, too hard to explain. Will definitely help him more than hurt him.

And not much chance of a perp walk.

Would much rather seem something come out of Georgia.

All law enforcement in New York are preparing for his indictment as early as Monday next week. Gonna be interesting.


We can thank Gov Andrew Cuomo for not being able to see mugshot of Trump.  Unless, it somehow leaks...


DaveSchmidt said:

Leeked mugshot.

do they turn orange as they age?


Could be quite the show. 


nohero said:

Could be quite the show. 










He might prefer to be arrested instead of turning himself in with his lawyer… for dramatic effect. The image of him being escorted by uniformed police would make him one of the proud boys who have been “persecuted” by the government run by woke liberals…His lawyer might need his own lawyer also…








Trump supporters already camping out at Mar E Lardo….they plan on forming a Moat around the property armed with assault weapons…to prevent law enforcement officers from arresting him. MAGA 


I’d be interested in knowing who would be responsible for taking him into custody if an indictment is isssued. I read that law enforcement has been in negotiations with the Secret Service for how to handle a potential arrest. Although I think as sworn law enforcement agents, the Secret Service detail assigned to protect him could also have an obligation to arrest him. 

A Forbes article describes possibilities. Most likely seems to be Trump traveling to NYC to turn himself in. He could be extradited from Florida if he chooses to defy the arrest warrant. The governor of Florida (can’t remember the name) or a judge would have to sign off on the extradition. I don’t know if it’s the West Palm Beach police or the Florida State Police who would serve the warrant. Then transporting him becomes a spectacle. It might play into the narrative he’s looking to push. But I have a hard time imagining Trump allowing himself to be transported in law enforcement custody. 

I guess we’d see him loaded onto a plane surrounded by Secret Service and police. 

Whatever happens it’s going to be weird.  


Jaytee said:

Trump supporters already camping out at Mar E Lardo….they plan on forming a Moat around the property armed with assault weapons…to prevent law enforcement officers from arresting him. MAGA 

It's almost as if they think the FBI doesn't have any helicopters.


So, is this indictment thing going to happen?


yahooyahoo said:

So, is this indictment thing going to happen?

My guess:


Manhattan DA Indictment will be filed today.

TFG will make his (negotiated) court appearance for arraignment next week.

Then the protracted legal fight to get him to actually stand trial begins.



    There is a lot going on in three different cases right now.

    The Manhattan DA case seems to be about to produce an indictment. There was one last witness, which is the grand jury heard from on Monday. It seems that they didn’t make a decision about an indictment on Monday, and they only meet on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Unless we hear about other witnesses appearing before the grand jury, it’s likely a decision is going to come today. 

    In the classified documents case, there is a lot of activity. Jack Smith, the special counsel presented evidence that a crime was committed. This evidence was compelling enough that the judge may allow trumps attorney to be questioned. Ordinarily, attorney-client privilege would prevent such questioning, however, if there is significant evidence that a crime was committed, that would be uncovered by piercing said privilege, that privilege can be overridden. And initial order to allow the lawyer to be questioned, and have to answer the questions, was issued on Friday, but an appeals court temporary early state that order. Trumps legal team had until midnight last night  to file their response to the order. The justice department then had until 6 AM to file their response to that filing. Lots of lawyers on both sides were awake all night. 

    From what I understand the alleged crime is that Trump compelled his attorney, John Corcoran, to make a false statement regarding the classified documents case.

    We also got another ruling in the civil case against the Trump organization. New York, Attorney General Letitia James is suing the organization for $250 million stating that they changed financial statements to commit tax fraud, as well as bank fraud by over, and under valuing properties, held by the organization.  the Trump organization was requesting a six month delay in the trial date, which is currently October 2. That request was denied, and the trial should commence as of that date.


    mrincredible said:

    We also got another ruling in the civil case against the Trump organization. New York, Attorney General Letitia James is suing the organization for $250 million stating that they changed financial statements to commit tax fraud, as well as bank fraud by over, and under valuing properties, held by the organization.  the Trump organization was requesting a six month delay in the trial date, which is currently October 2. That request was denied, and the trial should commence as of that date.

    A Trump fan (my assumption) tried to disrupt the proceedings for the civil case against the Trump organization.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/manhattan-civil-courthouse-shut-down-165935995.html

    Manhattan’s civil courthouse was briefly shut down by a bomb threat on Tuesday as prosecutors next door continue their work on the investigation into onald Trump;elm:context_link;itc:0" data-rapid_p="8" data-v9y="1">Donald Trump’s hush payment to Stormy Daniels.


    No indictment today from Alvin Bragg’s office. The grand jury did not meet, and from what I understand they are not likely to do so tomorrow either.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-indictment-hush-money-grand-jury-cancelled-wednesday-sources-2023-3


    yahooyahoo said:

    A Trump fan (my assumption) tried to disrupt the proceedings for the civil case against the Trump organization.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/manhattan-civil-courthouse-shut-down-165935995.html

    Manhattan’s civil courthouse was briefly shut down by a bomb threat on Tuesday as prosecutors next door continue their work on the investigation into onald Trump;elm:context_link;itc:0" data-rapid_p="8" data-v9y="1">Donald Trump’s hush payment to Stormy Daniels.

    "The threat, called in to the local 911 dispatchers, did not mention the former president by name, nor did it specifically target the criminal courthouse ..."

    More likely whoever did it wasn't even aware of what proceedings were taking place, or where.


    I almost feel like there should be a thread for each legal case that’s currently pending. 

    Anyway, in the classified documents case the DC Circuit court has rejected Trump’s appeal. Jack Smith is free to review all kinds of communications between Evan Corcoran and Donald Trump that would have been considered privileged were it not for the crime/fraud exception. Apparently testimony from Corcoran is a separate issue but will probably end up being fair game.

    Handwritten notes, emails, transcripts of recorded calls etc are now on the table. 

    One theory I read is that Corcoran himself wants to be free to share this information and testify. If Trump compelled him (or deceived him) into making a false statement about the classified documents, that’s big. Corcoran may not want to take the fall for that. 

    In the Manhattan DA (Stormy Daniels) case, apparently the grand jury is on standby to possibly meet tomorrow. Possibly to hear testimony from another witness. 

    It’s a little agonizing, but every prosecutor that’s involved wants to get every last fact nailed down before they proceed with charges. Alvin Bragg knows this is an historical moment and certainly doesn’t want to end up with egg on his face. 



    dave said:

    Jaytee said:

    Trump supporters already camping out at Mar E Lardo….they plan on forming a Moat around the property armed with assault weapons…to prevent law enforcement officers from arresting him. MAGA 

    It's almost as if they think the FBI doesn't have any helicopters.

    Aren't the Secret Service law enforcement officers?

    If the MAGAs resist, I think the relevant agencies should make ample use of tear gas. Anyone with a gas mask gets a shower from the water cannon.  Same for people who won't drop their firearms.


    If that doesn't work...


    I saw a post on Twitter where some knuckleheads were chattering about showing up at Mar-A-Lago with assault rifles to protect their orange idol. They talked about the possibility of shooting at any helicopters that attempted to land 

    While I’m sure that such an action would bring very swift retribution, there are people crazy enough to try it. And it could lead to serious harm or injury to someone. 


    If I were Trump and if I was utterly lacking in any human decency (but I repeat myself) I would try  to create a Waco like situation.  Maybe bring in the grandchildren to act as human shields.


    Meanwhile - 


    In order to add a comment – you must Join this community – Click here to do so.