Republican House, Democratic President -- Must be debt limit time
PVW said:
I say make this the last time this topic comes up:
Is the Debt Limit Constitutional? Biden Aides Are Debating It. (NYT)
Are Republicans really going to sue to force a default? Would business-friendly Roberts and his buddy Kavanaugh really support such a suit?
The debt limit makes no sense. Congress legislated that money has to be spent. It's incoherent to say that it also has to vote again to authorized spending that same money.
No-brainer. Idiotic that this is an issue.
Good piece in The Times on the subject:
Smedley said:
It's not just a Republican House thing.
https://rollcall.com/2011/04/14/obama-2006-debt-ceiling-vote-was-politically-motivated/
https://twitter.com/SullyCNBC/status/1656053768742420482?s=20
it's pretty easy to cast a symbolic vote when they know the bill is going to pass.
Do you really think that was the same as what Republicans are threatening to do now?
I don't think it was the same, and I didn't say it was the same.
What was Biden, Schumer and Obama's 2006 vote "symbolic" of?
Smedley said:
I don't think it was the same, and I didn't say it was the same.
What was Biden, Schumer and Obama's 2006 vote "symbolic" of?
they claimed to be caring about the deficit IIRC.
and if you didn't think it is a similar event to what's happening now, why did you share it and write this:
Smedley said:
It's not just a Republican House thing.
if it was a different thing, what is the relevance of posting it in this discussion?
Well, if the House Dems had the numbers in 2006, I don't think they would have fallen in line and given Bush an easy W (no pun intended). I'm not sure how far they would have pushed it, but they would have tried to get something out of the deal, which would have entailed wrangling like what's going on currently. Perhaps you think the Dems would have fallen in line and put country over politics and it would have been a 100-0 vote. I don't.
So yeah, symbolic or not, a vote is a vote, and there's some measure of hypocrisy in the Democrats saying the Republicans are just playing politics, because the Democrats also play politics. Perhaps you don't think so, but I do.
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
I don't think it was the same, and I didn't say it was the same.
What was Biden, Schumer and Obama's 2006 vote "symbolic" of?
they claimed to be caring about the deficit IIRC.
and if you didn't think it is a similar event to what's happening now, why did you share it and write this:
Smedley said:
It's not just a Republican House thing.
if it was a different thing, what is the relevance of posting it in this discussion?
I said it's not the same because 2023 is not the same as 2006 and the political control of the WH and House are different. But it is a debt ceiling limit vote, so it is a similar and comparable situation broadly speaking.
Perhaps we can stick to the topic and not obsess on gotchas? Or would you rather quote and re-quote, putting under a microscope whether I said or didn't say that today is the "same" or "similar" to 2006, and the various implications therein.
Smedley said:
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
I don't think it was the same, and I didn't say it was the same.
What was Biden, Schumer and Obama's 2006 vote "symbolic" of?
they claimed to be caring about the deficit IIRC.
and if you didn't think it is a similar event to what's happening now, why did you share it and write this:
Smedley said:
It's not just a Republican House thing.
if it was a different thing, what is the relevance of posting it in this discussion?
I said it's not the same because 2023 is not the same as 2006 and the political control of the WH and House are different. But it is a debt ceiling limit vote, so it is a similar and comparable situation broadly speaking.
Perhaps we can stick to the topic and not obsess on gotchas? Or would you rather quote and re-quote, putting under a microscope whether I said or didn't say that today is the "same" or "similar" to 2006, and the various implications therein.
OK, I won't obsess over your attempt at a "gotcha."
Smedley said:
Well, if the House Dems had the numbers in 2006, I don't think they would have fallen in line and given Bush an easy W (no pun intended). I'm not sure how far they would have pushed it, but they would have tried to get something out of the deal, which would have entailed wrangling like what's going on currently. Perhaps you think the Dems would have fallen in line and put country over politics and it would have been a 100-0 vote. I don't.
So yeah, symbolic or not, a vote is a vote, and there's some measure of hypocrisy in the Democrats saying the Republicans are just playing politics, because the Democrats also play politics. Perhaps you don't think so, but I do.
and if my grandmother had wheels...
Nobody knows what would have happened in 2006 under those circumstances. But I'm nearly 100% sure the Democrats then wouldn't have engaged in brinksmanship holding the world economy hostage.
why do I think that? Because prior to 2011 NEITHER party ever seriously threatened such a thing. In the past twelve years this has strictly been a right wing extremist tactic.
Smedley said:
It's not just a Republican House thing.
https://rollcall.com/2011/04/14/obama-2006-debt-ceiling-vote-was-politically-motivated/
https://twitter.com/SullyCNBC/status/1656053768742420482?s=20
Smedley said:
I don't think it was the same, and I didn't say it was the same.
Democrats have never credibly threatened default, but I agree that even these symbolic votes on the debt ceiling are a bad thing -- all the more reason to get rid of it.
Some historical context:
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
Well, if the House Dems had the numbers in 2006, I don't think they would have fallen in line and given Bush an easy W (no pun intended). I'm not sure how far they would have pushed it, but they would have tried to get something out of the deal, which would have entailed wrangling like what's going on currently. Perhaps you think the Dems would have fallen in line and put country over politics and it would have been a 100-0 vote. I don't.
So yeah, symbolic or not, a vote is a vote, and there's some measure of hypocrisy in the Democrats saying the Republicans are just playing politics, because the Democrats also play politics. Perhaps you don't think so, but I do.
and if my grandmother had wheels...
Nobody knows what would have happened in 2006 under those circumstances. But I'm nearly 100% sure the Democrats then wouldn't have engaged in brinksmanship holding the world economy hostage.
why do I think that? Because prior to 2011 NEITHER party ever seriously threatened such a thing. In the past twelve years this has strictly been a right wing extremist tactic.
I believe this whole thing started with Newt Gingrich in 1995.
nohero said:
Smedley said:
It's not just a Republican House thing.
https://rollcall.com/2011/04/14/obama-2006-debt-ceiling-vote-was-politically-motivated/
https://twitter.com/SullyCNBC/status/1656053768742420482?s=20
Smedley said:
I don't think it was the same, and I didn't say it was the same.
More original nohero content, less Smedley quoting please. Don't hide your light under a bushel.
What do you think about the debt ceiling debate?
Smedley said:
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
Well, if the House Dems had the numbers in 2006, I don't think they would have fallen in line and given Bush an easy W (no pun intended). I'm not sure how far they would have pushed it, but they would have tried to get something out of the deal, which would have entailed wrangling like what's going on currently. Perhaps you think the Dems would have fallen in line and put country over politics and it would have been a 100-0 vote. I don't.
So yeah, symbolic or not, a vote is a vote, and there's some measure of hypocrisy in the Democrats saying the Republicans are just playing politics, because the Democrats also play politics. Perhaps you don't think so, but I do.
and if my grandmother had wheels...
Nobody knows what would have happened in 2006 under those circumstances. But I'm nearly 100% sure the Democrats then wouldn't have engaged in brinksmanship holding the world economy hostage.
why do I think that? Because prior to 2011 NEITHER party ever seriously threatened such a thing. In the past twelve years this has strictly been a right wing extremist tactic.
I believe this whole thing started with Newt Gingrich in 1995.
so I was wrong in giving the pre 2011 Republicans credit for not being extremists. Either way it's a right wing extremist tactic.
Smedley said:
nohero said:
Smedley said:
It's not just a Republican House thing.
https://rollcall.com/2011/04/14/obama-2006-debt-ceiling-vote-was-politically-motivated/
https://twitter.com/SullyCNBC/status/1656053768742420482?s=20
Smedley said:
I don't think it was the same, and I didn't say it was the same.
More original nohero content, less Smedley quoting please. Don't hide your light under a bushel.
What do you think about the debt ceiling debate?
It is original content. I arranged pre-existing elements into a new narrative.
You could read between the lines.
PVW said:
Democrats have never credibly threatened default, but I agree that even these symbolic votes on the debt ceiling are a bad thing -- all the more reason to get rid of it.
I agree with this. The whole thing doesn't make any sense.
ml1 said:
I agree with this. The whole thing doesn't make any sense.
You're not helping the people who keep thinking we're the same user name ;-)
(people have actually seen ml1 and I in the same room together at the same time. I swear, you get one drink with a person and suddenly no one can tell you apart...)
PVW said:
ml1 said:
I agree with this. The whole thing doesn't make any sense.
You're not helping the people who keep thinking we're the same user name ;-)
(people have actually seen ml1 and I in the same room together at the same time. I swear, you get one drink with a person and suddenly no one can tell you apart...)
ah yes, the gathering of the smart MOL set 
jimmurphy said:
Good piece in The Times on the subject:
And here's a bad piece:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/14/opinion/debt-limit-constitution.html
Making the payments Congress mandated is not "usurping" the power of Congress. I don't even think the 14th amendment needs to come into it at all. Faced with two mutually exclusive demands by Congress, the WH should follow the least damaging option, which is to continue to pay what Congress authorized.
Interesting to see how this deal has shaken out, and somewhat re-assuring in that it seems the Republican majority has only been talking like crazy people but don't seem to be actually acting to match their words -- doesn't look like they're going to blow up the economy.
Of course, both parties will take the wrong lesson from this and conclude that the debt limit should be allowed to live on.
PVW said:
Interesting to see how this deal has shaken out, and somewhat re-assuring in that it seems the Republican majority has only been talking like crazy people but don't seem to be actually acting to match their words -- doesn't look like they're going to blow up the economy.
Of course, both parties will take the wrong lesson from this and conclude that the debt limit should be allowed to live on.
if the Democrats win the House, White House and Senate next year, they need to do two things -- eliminate the filibuster (you can be sure the GOP will do this if they prevail), and eliminate the debt limit
ml1 said:
if the Democrats win the House, White House and Senate next year, they need to do two things -- eliminate the filibuster (you can be sure the GOP will do this if they prevail), and eliminate the debt limit
Of course, they will do neither.
PVW said:
Interesting to see how this deal has shaken out, and somewhat re-assuring in that it seems the Republican majority has only been talking like crazy people but don't seem to be actually acting to match their words -- doesn't look like they're going to blow up the economy.
Of course, both parties will take the wrong lesson from this and conclude that the debt limit should be allowed to live on.
And Bernie is still being Bernie.
I cannot, in good conscience, vote for the debt ceiling deal. pic.twitter.com/Y5M8kP8AEo
— Bernie Sanders (@SenSanders) May 31, 2023
drummerboy said:
ml1 said:
if the Democrats win the House, White House and Senate next year, they need to do two things -- eliminate the filibuster (you can be sure the GOP will do this if they prevail), and eliminate the debt limit
Of course, they will do neither.
this is true
So after calling Biden old and senile, the MAGAts are complaining that he outsmarted them…MT Greene said it’s a siht sandwich that they (republicans) will have to eat…these people!
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I say make this the last time this topic comes up:
Is the Debt Limit Constitutional? Biden Aides Are Debating It. (NYT)
Are Republicans really going to sue to force a default? Would business-friendly Roberts and his buddy Kavanaugh really support such a suit?
The debt limit makes no sense. Congress legislated that money has to be spent. It's incoherent to say that it also has to vote again to authorized spending that same money.