Pope Francis Met Privately with Kim Davis
In her mind, this confirms everything she believes she did was right.
I just hope she's lying about what he said to her. Hopefully he advised her to do her job or step down.
What this confirms about the Pope and the church's stand isn't as critical as what it does for Davis.
So unfortunate.
So his famous line about gays in the church, "Who am I to judge?" is total bullsh#t.
yahooyahoo said:
So his famous line about gays in the church, "Who am I to judge?" is total bullsh#t.
To be fair, he said nothing to support same-sex marriage.
It's mighty big of him to allow gays to attend church though.
This has diminished him greatly in my eyes. Greatly. All I can hope for is that somehow his people failed to understand what a horrible, dishonest hack this woman is. Otherwise this (effing extraordinary!) meeting between a Pope and a no-one essentially supports her actions.
I'd be curious to hear an honest account of how the meeting came to be, but I don't see that happening, leaving Davis and her clan to write the story any way they wish.
I have to believe his people didn't understand the situation, or it was misrepresented to them. There are a million more deserving people of all political viewpoints he could have met with.
Here's the Jesuit spin on the meeting, thoughtful but, imho, there's not enough spin in the whole world for this one...
http://papalvisit.americamedia.org/2015/09/30/the-pope-and-kim-davis-seven-points-to-keep-in-mind/
drummerboy said:
This has diminished him greatly in my eyes. Greatly. All I can hope for is that somehow his people failed to understand what a horrible, dishonest hack this woman is. Otherwise this (effing extraordinary!) meeting between a Pope and a no-one essentially supports her actions.
Same. That's why he kept it secret.
According to Davis, the Pope's people initiated the meeting. If I were to guess, I'd say it was Huckabee's people who called the Pope's people and urged them to initiate it.
kthnry said:
I have to believe his people didn't understand the situation, or it was misrepresented to them. There are a million more deserving people of all political viewpoints he could have met with.
I don't think so. This Pope doesn't make mistakes like that...he's a PR master. It never would have been found out if her attorneys didn't release a statement.
I'm incredibly disappointed in this guy. He's all spin and PR, as I feared.
finnegan said:
Here's the Jesuit spin on the meeting, thoughtful but, imho, there's not enough spin in the whole world for this one...
http://papalvisit.americamedia.org/2015/09/30/the-pope-and-kim-davis-seven-points-to-keep-in-mind/
That was actually quite helpful. Thanks for posting it.
finnegan said:
Here's the Jesuit spin on the meeting, thoughtful but, imho, there's not enough spin in the whole world for this one...
http://papalvisit.americamedia.org/2015/09/30/the-pope-and-kim-davis-seven-points-to-keep-in-mind/
Funny closing line: "Pope Francis also met Mark Wahlberg, and that does not mean that he liked 'Ted.'"
kthnry said:
I have to believe his people didn't understand the situation, or it was misrepresented to them. There are a million more deserving people of all political viewpoints he could have met with.
The Vatican did not mention the meeting (as opposed to Pope Francis's visit to Little Sisters of the Poor) and didn't seem too enthused having to answer questions about it once Ms. Davis's attorney and Mike Huckabee went public to gloat.
Pope Francis and his staff need to understand the implications of even the most innocent-seeming actions. They're still responsible and subject to criticism, but I hope they were unaware. It is possible that U.S. church hierarchy and/or ultra-donors with access to the Papal Nuncio might have run her through there to rally their supporters/contributors and as a stick in the eye to all of those liberals who appreciate some of the Pope's other beliefs.
From Crux..
By John L. Allen Jr.
Associate editor September 30, 2015
ROME – If anyone suspected that Pope Francis didn’t really mean the strong words he spoke on religious freedom last week in the United States – that he was phoning it in, while his real concerns were elsewhere – claims that he held a private meeting with Kentucky county clerk Kim Davis certainly should lay that suspicion to rest.
The meeting was first reported by Robert Moynihan of Inside the Vatican magazine. A Vatican spokesman said Wednesday, “I do not deny that the meeting took place, but I have no comments to add,” which, in effect, is a way of allowing the report to stand.
Taken together with his unscheduled stop to see the Little Sisters of the Poor, the Davis encounter means Francis has expressed personal support to leading symbols of the two most contentious fronts in America’s religious freedom debates – the contraception mandates imposed by the Obama administration, and conscientious objection on gay marriage.
Before unpacking what it means, let’s roll out the necessary caveats.
First of all, the fact that someone arranged a brief encounter between Francis and Davis does not necessarily mean that Francis initiated the contact, or even that he necessarily grasps all the dimensions of her case. By her own account it was an extremely brief greeting, just long enough for the pope to tell Davis to “stay strong” and to give her a rosary. Asking for prayers and offering a blessed rosary to individuals following a meeting is a customary gesture for Pope Francis.
It would be over-interpreting things to read the meeting as a blanket endorsement of everything Davis has said or done.
In addition, we don’t yet know how Francis sees the balance between honoring one’s conscience and upholding one’s responsibilities as a public official, because he hasn’t addressed that question at any length.
The fact that the Vatican has chosen not to comment probably means, at least in part, that they don’t want to be dragged into a detailed discussion of Davis’ situation.
That said, there’s no way to view the encounter other than as a broad gesture of support by the pope for conscientious objection from gay marriage laws, especially taken in tandem with his statement aboard the papal plane that following one’s conscience in such a situation is a “human right” – one, he insisted, that also belongs to government officials.
So what does it mean?
First, it means that Francis has significantly strengthened the hand of the US bishops and other voices in American debates defending religious freedom.
In the wake of a massively successful trip in which Francis was lauded for his stands on issues ranging from climate change to immigration to fighting poverty, it will be more difficult for anyone to wrap themselves in the papal mantle without at least acknowledging his concerns vis-à-vis religious freedom.
Second, Francis may also have smoothed the waters in advance for round two of the Synod of Bishops on the family, which opens on Sunday.
Last time around, the question of how welcoming the Church ought to be to gays and lesbians was a major flashpoint, in part because conservatives worried it might lessen the Church’s resolve to resist a “redefinition” of marriage. By holding the Davis meeting, Francis has probably reassured conservatives that he’s not priming the pump for going soft on same-sex marriage.
Ironically, the Davis meeting may actually increase the odds of the synod recommending a more pastoral approach to same-sex relationships, since there won’t be the same fear about where such an opening might lead.
Third, Francis has also debunked impressions of a rift with the American bishops when it comes to the “wars of culture.”
Yes, Francis called the bishops to spurn “harsh and divisive” rhetoric and to embrace dialogue as a method. That does not imply, however, that he believes the substance of their concerns is mistaken, and by meeting both the Little Sisters of the Poor and Davis he drove that point home.
Fourth and finally, the Davis meeting confirms that the US trip amounted to the public debut of “Francis 2.0,” meaning a pope more clearly perceived as standing in continuity with Catholic teaching and tradition, as well as in solidarity both with previous popes and with the bishops.
To put the point in crudely political terms, Francis is a figure who utterly defies the usual left/right divides, equally capable of meeting Kim Davis and embracing poor immigrant children at a Harlem school – seeing both as part of a continuum of concern for human dignity.
That will be a source of consolation to some and consternation to others, but in any event it’s now officially part of the Francis narrative
I always thought that Protestant Fundamentalists were very much opposed to the Vatican.
mtierney said:
From Crux..
By John L. Allen Jr.
First, it means that Francis has significantly strengthened the hand of the US bishops and other voices in American debates defending religious freedom.
You mean the freedom for people to impose their beliefs on others? Nice. A bit like Sharia Law, don't you think.
LOST said:
I always thought that Protestant Fundamentalists were very much opposed to the Vatican.
But, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
This obsession with abortion and same-sex marriage is rather bizarre. You would think it is the heart and soul of Christianity. It doesn't seem that Jesus Christ shared this obsession.
mbaldwin said:
kthnry said:I don't think so. This Pope doesn't make mistakes like that...he's a PR master. It never would have been found out if her attorneys didn't release a statement.
I have to believe his people didn't understand the situation, or it was misrepresented to them. There are a million more deserving people of all political viewpoints he could have met with.
I'm incredibly disappointed in this guy. He's all spin and PR, as I feared.
This. A better public face than his predecessor but nothing different in terms of belief or ideology. Everyone loved John Paul as well because of his PR skills ignoring his actual actions
Yes, I was going to say, the only problem is that it has nothing to do with religious freedom.
tjohn said:
This obsession with abortion and same-sex marriage is rather bizarre. You would think it is the heart and soul of Christianity. It doesn't seem that Jesus Christ shared this obsession.
I don't believe that Jesus ever said anything on either topic. If I'm wrong about that I'd really like to know the chapter and verse.
I have a serious question: Why do we pay so much attention to the Pope? Why is it such a big deal when he comes to the U.S.? He's a religious leader. As a Jew, I never have understood why the big deal. I hope this is not offensive to anyone, but it just strikes me as odd. There aren't three-day media frenzies for Protestant or Muslim leaders coming here.
drummerboy said:
This has diminished him greatly in my eyes. Greatly. All I can hope for is that somehow his people failed to understand what a horrible, dishonest hack this woman is. Otherwise this (effing extraordinary!) meeting between a Pope and a no-one essentially supports her actions.
This. She's a modern day Pharisee, and the pope should have known it.
LOST said:
I always thought that Protestant Fundamentalists were very much opposed to the Vatican.
They taught us in Sunday School that the Pope is the antichrist.
Answers the usually rhetorical question, "Is the Pope catholic?" Of course he is.
Anti-choice, anti-gay marriage, anti-woman priest. I think we've gotten as much as we can with Francis. I'm thankful for climate, immigration, poverty, and refugee positions.
And, of course, the Fiat. Fiat could use a good plug in the U.S.
Unfortunately what the Catholics and Protestant Fundalmentalists have in common is their denying religious freedom to others not in their group...
Sad
At first I thought this knuckle-dragging bigot and her attorneys must have lost their minds, but the Vatican has confirmed that Kim Davis was in fact granted a brief, private audience with the Pope. It's easy to celebrate and support the enormous good Pope Francis is doing in his confrontation of the most destructive forces on this planet, and yet he remains the head of the most homophobic and patriarchal institution in the world. This news is truly disapponting.