SaveMillburn.com

I pass that For Sale sign twice a week and keep wondering why in the world it won't sell. What's UP with that house? Did the builder build on spec and spend too much for the drop in the housing market?

I do know that no how much money I have, I would not spend it to live behind another house; reminds me of a house I rented in Hoboken 20 years ago!

Isn't there another McMansion that was recently finished on, I think, Hobart Ave? Or maybe it's on Hillside, near where it meets Hobart? Last time I checked, they were trying to sell it for over $5 million - did it ever sell? (and more to the point of this thread, did it require any special variances or combining of lots? It's SO big relative to anything around it!)

footballmom, he tore down two houses and built one. Left the third for a guest house as I heard. I highly doubt he's renting it - can't believe he'd need the cash after the millions he spent bringing in full-sized evergreens to hide his Manse.

Again, does anyone know why he is leaving his Millburn Ave house to build a center on Jefferson/OSH Rd? Seems to me, the Millburn Ave site is better situated for such a use.

Shoshannah - yes, I too think that the Millburn Ave site is better situated for a religious building (after all it is near two churches and walking distance of downtown and public parking).

I guess he (Bogomilsky) intends that his congregation will grow to be so large that the Millburn Ave site it is too small for his plans. (Of course we don't know yet what his intentions are) I know nothing about how synagogues operate but is it possible that he wants room at his Chai center for: weddings, funerals, bar/bat mitzvah services, usual religious daily/weekly/holiday services, prayer groups, tuition, memorial services. Other people have mentioned day care centers (are these for old people or for babies and young children?) Summer holiday camps. Do the ultra-Orthodox temples also have some kind of special bathing area for women? Will they be doing home-schooling for children too?

How many hours a day/per week do these religious buildings operate for? Is it typically open (every day) all day long and into the evenings?

I think it would drive me nuts if my nice quiet street (or if I lived on Jefferson Ave) turned into a busy thoroughfare and constant car doors being slammed, engines starting up etc!

Posted By: footballmomBut they will allow the demolition of this house for a new commercial building?

from the plans someone link to in this thread the shul doesn't look that bad. it looks like a very large house, of which there are plenty in short hills. what is the square footage of the house across the street from where the rabi wants to build the shul?

lockquote>Posted By: broigusThe Arizona guy created a compound of two houses on three properties. And fenced it to boot.he did a nice job on his houses.

Posted By: footballmomNone of our business, really. He was allowed to own it, but not annex and tear down. personally, that house and property r so beautiful and it does alot to enhance the town, so it is too bad he was stopped from doing whatever he wished on the second lot, imho.

then what's the difference then between the arizona tea family compound and what the rabi wants to do? you have said your concerns have nothing to do with religion. that it has to do with the size of the house. were you being as vocal when the arizona ice tea family built their house?

i don't understand why this can even be happening in a residential neighborhood.

the difference ?

one is a commercial building traffic, buses, deliveries, carpool pick up and drop off line, public meetings. it would be like living next to neighbors having parties that are open to the public, every day. Strangers will be driving or walking in and out of the house-turned-public building all day long, 7 days a week. After all, they offer free meals and say,"all are welcome". People invested money and emotions into homes that they believed to be in a private neighborhood and all of a sudden, surprise, your biggest investment is destroyed along with your peace and quiet. Have you ever been to a summer camp or preschool recess and actually listened to the noise level? to think that a camp and preschool won't mushroom out of this is plain ignorant. Imagine all that in your backyard. it's one thing if you buy a house knowing that is what will happen,and the house is priced accordingly. But its different if its a shock and change of zoning. What a nightmare when you go outside in your private backyard to relax. There will be large numbers of people coming and going. there will be weddings and other events, so it will be like living next to catering hall. Probably will have big dumpsters - those are noisy! Just not a safe, quiet family neighborhood at all.

The other is a private home with one family. Little traffic, no buses no deliveries no public meetings no car pool pickup/drop off line. No school or camp for kids in the summer in the back yard. No dumpsters, no throngs of visitors on a constant basis.

I agree the Millburn Ave. site would be better but he already went before the Board on that site and was rejected.

The Arizona Ice Tea house doesn't look overly massive from the street at all, and many would even miss it if not for the small fountain out front. I drive by it very regularly and there's never any traffic issues as a result of it. Most importantly it's used as a residence. If he were to use it as a commercial retail space where cars are constantly trying to drive in and out of his driveway and holding up traffic on the two-lane (one lane each way) road outside, it'll be a massive issue.

The proposed center on Jefferson is another thing altogether. Already you have cars pulling in and out of that backyard for services from the busy two-lane Old Short Hills Road and Jefferson. It's pretty obvious which house it is from the highly visible number of cars parked on the grass/lawn/woodchipped area of that house (front and backyards).

Several months ago the big issue was how that owner was claiming the house was really just a residence and not a religious place of worship. How has that suddenly turned 180 degrees that he can now completely reverse his original stance and now wants to build a massive religious center. And ask for a special variance to do so? This of course only happening after town officials settled with him on the first issue. There's something highly disingenuous and untruthful in the whole series of events, especially given the timing of events. What about the town officials who settled with him in the first place? Why is he now so emboldened, post-settlement, that he's taking measures to another level altogether (were the officials only going through the motions the first time around?). What next? Tax exemptions for that property?

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Posted By: footballmomAgain, I am not saying ANYTHING coming close to a judgement of this "mikvah"

Yes you are

Posted By: footballmomJust telling you it exists in most every shul

No it doesn't. As they are expensive to install and maintain they tend to be regionalized and in many cases are separate from synagogue buildings.

Posted By: footballmommenstrual blood

You really are off the wall. The whole purpose is a ritual AFTER. And after means after all signs have gone. And there are other times that one goes to a mikvah. I have actually been in one. Oh the horror!

All religions can be made to look strange, ridiculous and even sinister to an outsider but you innate bias is becoming clearer and clearer.

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You have facts but no understanding. A very dangerous combination.

Disclosure - I'm a Millburn Jew of secular, pro-diversity leanings. We are your typical high holiday only members of B'nai Israel.

My comments on several recurring themes of this thread:

Zoning - its a real issue. We all by our houses with the assumption that our neighbors cannot build highly trafficked, public structures of any kind next to ours, whether that structure is a supermarket or a place of worship. I'm not in favor of laws that give religious groups a special edge in attacking zoning rules.

The "takeover the town" blueprint. The five towns phenomenon, which disturbs me, has been a pattern of "regular" Orthodox communities, not Hasids. Not sure thats a real issue witrh something like this but who knows.

The "horror" of being pigeon-holed by the young Hasids looking for Jews is overblown. Its no different than when I have to hide from the Jehova's witnesses when they ring my bell. People are allowed to try to talk to you and you are allowed to ignore them, curse at them walk away from them etc. That's the rough and tumble of free speech in America. For what its worth, those guys are uncannily good at spotting Jews. When I say "no" I know they know I'm lying.

Posted By: broigusFor what its worth, those guys are uncannily good at spotting Jews. When I say "no" I know they know I'm lying.

Just like there is gaydar, there is jewdar. So yes they have clues before the approach people. I do think I have a good chance of picking out who is a crowd is Jewish, though obviously there is no scientific study to back up that assertion.

Posted By: bubThe "takeover the town" blueprint. The five towns phenomenon, which disturbs me, has been a pattern of "regular" Orthodox communities, not Hasids. Not sure thats a real issue witrh something like this but who knows.

It is always possible but not lily with this shul. The bigger issue would be if the more modern Orthodox Jews in West Orange out grew that community and established a shul in one of the other towns in the area and started moving in in large numbers. Since they tend to have large families this is a certainly a risk, but one more likely to impact South Orange or Livingston (where it is most likely to happen as they already have an Orthodox community). That would be a situation more analogous to the five towns situation.

Posted By: bubZoning - its a real issue.

It is not just the real issue, it is the only issue. The problem is people keep bringing in all kids of other things that come very close to bigotry, or at the minimum xenophobia. I am not at all saying that the zoning board should approve the variances. And I am certain that even if they do there will need to be modification and restrictions before they do so.

All I am saying is that people need to let this play out as a zoning issue only and follow and respect the zoning process and not continue to make shrill claims about issues that have nothing to do with zoning.

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The Mikvah -- ritual bath -- is not in "every" synagogue or most synagogues. They are very occasionally in a synagogue but they are usually in a building of their own.

They are not a regular bath and they are not a Jacuzzi. You must be scrupulously clean before you enter the mikvah. You must shower, clean under your finger and toenails, take off your nail polish and other things. They also must contain a certain amount of rain water. They cannot just be regular city water. This is why a flowing body of water such as a river or ocean can also be used as a mikvah. The water is changed after each user.

It has a ritual meaning as is meant as a type of spiritual cleansing not a regular physical cleansing.

If you are from the Christian tradition think of how baptism is meant in a spiritual sense.

It is not the Rabbi's wife who assists. There is usually a special "mikvah lady."

There is no blood allowed in the mikvah.

It can be used for purposes that do not have to do with a woman and her period.

Fay Kellerman wrote a mystery novel The Ritual Bath which can give more info for those interested and since it is in the form of a mystery is an easy and fun read.

Excellent (and true) post NoraCharles. You are a more lucid writer than I and I thank you.

Thank you for your kind words broigus.

The ways of the Lubuvitchers (the Hasid sect that runs the Chabad organization) -- including the Mitzvah Mobiles, Chabad houses, dinners and events open to all -- are very familiar to anyone who has lived in or around the NY area, or even anyone who has been on a college campus lately. The mikvah ritual among Orthodox Jews is not a new or foreign concept either. The impression I am getting is that football mom is new to the ways of the Orthodox. The others on this board don't have to "look it up" or "Google it." We know. Not disputing it.

By the way, according to this worldwide directory of mikvahs, he is already operating one at the Millburn Ave site.
http://mikvah.org/directory/directory.asp

I am working on my second bowl of popcorn with this thread.

I think Bub makes the most sense. The issue with the zoning, however, is a legal one since Congress passed and then President Clinton signed a law that doesn't allow municipalities to use exclusionary zoning to prevent houses of worship to be built.

Maplewood had to deal with this problem several years ago and decided that the chances of success in court were small and the legal bill extremely heavy they allowed the church to be built. Since the Rabbi and his movement seem to be extremely well financed Millburn will probably incur millions of dollars in legal fees if they decide to deny the variance and probably lose to boot.

How many churches and synagogues in Millburn are on three or more acres?

I think the whole Mikvah bit is very telling about prejudice to be honest and seems to assume that the Hasidim don't have indoor plumbing or bathe regularly. The idea of the Mikvah, like many Jewish traditions, made sense back when people didn't have plumbing and, to be frank, probably didn't bathe very often or at all.

Putting on another load of popcorn, which in honor of the occasion I will drink with a Kosher wine, from Israel of course. :bigsmile:

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Posted By: bobk The idea of the Mikvah, like many Jewish traditions, made sense back when people didn't have plumbing and, to be frank, probably didn't bathe very often or at all.

Not really. It comes from very ancient middle eastern culture and in one way or another has permeated all three of the major religions that have there long ago antecedents in that culture.

Interesting. I am not aware of any Christian denominations that still follow this practice nor am I aware of it as part of Islamic traditions.

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Posted By: footballmom OH -shoshana says he is already operating a mikvah on Millburn ave. shoshana, how do you know? Is it advertised?

Posted By: shoshannah
By the way, according to this worldwide directory of mikvahs, he is already operating one at the Millburn Ave site.
http://mikvah.org/directory/directory.asp

footballmom,

you may feel that you are not biased, but if you want anyone else to feel that way, you should probably stop posting comments on Orthodox Jewish traditions. You risk making a zoning issue into a referendum on religious tolerance, which will only give the town more bad press than it has already had recently.

Explaining a common religious concept as if it is strange and exotic, and then asking ignorant questions that imply that it might not be sanitary makes you look bigoted, however many times you protest your lack of judgementalness. (again, think about how would it play if we attacked a potential Catholic church expansion because of the unsanitary aspects of sharing the host, a ritual in wine is treated as if it were the blood of a divinity....). Keep this about zoning, please.

(fair disclosure...I've been to a mikvah once, far from here, for spiritual purposes at a time of major life change. I also know women who have used the mikvah after a miscarriage, for example, even among those of us who reject the monthly cycle usage. A mikvah is a small facility, a short visit, and should be of no concern to anyone except those whose tradition calls for its use)

Posted By: footballmom
broigus, you are so touchy and you lash out in a way that reminds me of the rabbi and his lawyer.

And you posts almost make me think the overly aggressive attitude of the Rabbi and his lawyer are justified. There is definitely an underlying bias in your posts that verge on or possible cross the line of acceptable discourse. And your denying bias and then writing the things you write just does not cut it.

And as I ave written a lot elsewhere here, I have a high threshold for calling bias on someone. So for you to be there makes many of your comments far out of line.

As someone else wrote earlier - your comments are going to go a long way to winning any case the Rabbi may bring to court in the future because they are going to be exhibit A of religious bias. So just be aware that your actions are helping to bring to fruition just what you oppose.

Bobk -- There may be no Christian denominations that follow the exact same practice as the mikvah but think in terms of baptism. There are many Christian denominations that practice full immersion for baptism. Baptism is done for a spiritual reason. It has nothing to do with cleanliness in the physical sense. The mikvah has nothing to do with cleanliness in the physical sense. It only has to do with the spiritual sense.

The mikvah has along history in Jewish life. Archaeological excavations have found mikvahs dating back as far as the 900 B.C.E.

To borrow a phrase . . .

It's the zoning, stupid.