Racial Composition in our town and impact to schools
The chart showing the distribution of tracked groups at the elementary school level is interesting. Tuscan, Marshal, South Mountain and Clinton are relatively similar but Seth Boyden has a markedly higher percentage of "minority" students. Years ago, Seth Boyden was designated an opt in school as an alternative to massive redistricting. I couldn't tell from the article whether the discrepancy was due to the demographics of those children living in the Seth Boyden district or a reflection of the students opting in from elsewhere in the entire South Orange Maplewood School District.
My guess is there are fewer white families opting in to Seth Boyden. When we first moved here there was significant momentum towards opting in to Seth Boyden. Several families in our neighborhood chose to do so and even pressured families that decided to stay at our assigned school.
Fast forward several years and I can't think of any families in our neighborhood that currently attend Seth Boyden. This is only anecdotal evidence.
joan_crystal said:
The chart showing the distribution of tracked groups at the elementary school level is interesting. Tuscan, Marshal, South Mountain and Clinton are relatively similar but Seth Boyden has a markedly higher percentage of "minority" students. Years ago, Seth Boyden was designated an opt in school as an alternative to massive redistricting. I couldn't tell from the article whether the discrepancy was due to the demographics of those children living in the Seth Boyden district or a reflection of the students opting in from elsewhere in the entire South Orange Maplewood School District.
For reasons unknown to me, it seems that in recent years, the BOE/Administration have failed to effectively communicate the opt-in/Demonstration program at Seth Boyden to many families who might have taken advantage of it. I can't tell you how many times I have been in conversation with families new to town who had no idea that they had the choice between their zoned school and Seth Boyden. So ... if people don't know, then it is no surprise that they didn't choose it.
My children attended Seth Boyden in the very early years of the Demo program and there was a LOT of communication, information sessions for parents, promotion of tours of the school, etc. That no longer seems to be the case.
sac said:
I can't tell you how many times I have been in conversation with families new to town who had no idea that they had the choice between their zoned school and Seth Boyden. So ... if people don't know, then it is no surprise that they didn't choose it.
I've had the same experience.
So let me get this straight--integration is forced, then those that helped force it are complaining it went too far ? Soliciting the "brooklynites and upper west siders [white] worked too well and now the blacks are getting "squeezed out"? Truly I have never understood all the redistricting and bussing and directed housing--let nature take it's course, and traditional neighborhood schools--if I were AA I'd be a little miffed that those forcing integration don't have enough trust and confidence in my race to find schools/houses/neighborhoods without painting the picture for me and frankly, playing God. But I digress.
Starsong said:
Truly I have never understood all the redistricting and bussing and directed housing--let nature take it's course, and traditional neighborhood schools.
"Nature" takes its course in traditional neighborhood schools all over New Jersey... and we have extreme segregation of housing and schools throughout the state.
Better economic balance, and a revision of higher education, might get similar efforts to have more similar financial footing. Currently, effort is less rewarded than good luck.
Sometimes when effort and good luck occur, and one is Black and moves to a mostly White town with a 'good' school district, the reward may include the family casually being referred to by others in the town as "the ni****s on the hill".
Nature, especially human nature, kinda sucks.
Afraid that if you keep saying that, it will be so, maybe in your circle?. I have never heard that in my 'hood. Would rather be a black family that choses my school/neighborhood/life than a black family directed to live/bus somewhere to "balance out the neighborhood" by a white realtor. but that's just me. PS human nature, can be beautiful, if you let it happen, naturally.
sprout said:
Starsong said:
Truly I have never understood all the redistricting and bussing and directed housing--let nature take it's course, and traditional neighborhood schools.
"Nature" takes its course in traditional neighborhood schools all over New Jersey... and we have extreme segregation of housing and schools throughout the state.
Better economic balance, and a revision of higher education, might get similar efforts to have more similar financial footing. Currently, effort is less rewarded than good luck.
Sometimes when effort and good luck occur, and one is Black and moves to a mostly White town with a 'good' school district, the reward may include the family casually being referred to by others in the town as "the ni****s on the hill".
Nature, especially human nature, kinda sucks.
Sadly it seems like "naturally" only happens on relatively rare occasions.
Starsong said:
So let me get this straight--integration is forced, then those that helped force it are complaining it went too far ? Soliciting the "brooklynites and upper west siders [white] worked too well and now the blacks are getting "squeezed out"? Truly I have never understood all the redistricting and bussing and directed housing--let nature take it's course, and traditional neighborhood schools--if I were AA I'd be a little miffed that those forcing integration don't have enough trust and confidence in my race to find schools/houses/neighborhoods without painting the picture for me and frankly, playing God. But I digress.
While it's wonderful to know how you'd respond to systemic racism if you were Black, the reality is that you have no idea what you're talking about since you aren't- right?
If integration annoys(ed) you why not speak to that reality based on whoever you actually are? Inevitably that will much more entertaining.
Obviously what happens 'naturally' in our society is not integration. That fact is not due to human nature but to historical precedent created to maintain a multi tiered environment defined by race and class distinctions- but you know that don't you?
So leaving "us" to our own devices will inevitably produce an environment where Americans are separated by race. That is our national design. You know that, as do most of the people reading here, so suggesting that AAs are 'miffed' because evil Brooklynites and upper west siders are insulting them by withholding 'trust and confidence' and 'forcing integration' is a ham fisted attempt at misdirection. It's insulting to suggest that all society needs to do is 'allow' Black people to live, work and educate themselves wherever and however they see fit, free of encumbrances, when historically that freedom of choice has never been a reality.
It's actually Black people who for generations have exhibited endless amounts of 'trust and confidence' in white America- believing them capable of living up to the basic standards of equality.
Starsong said:
Afraid that if you keep saying that, it will be so, maybe in your circle?. I have never heard that in my 'hood.
Never heard what?
flimbro said:
Starsong said:
So let me get this straight--integration is forced, then those that helped force it are complaining it went too far ? Soliciting the "brooklynites and upper west siders [white] worked too well and now the blacks are getting "squeezed out"? Truly I have never understood all the redistricting and bussing and directed housing--let nature take it's course, and traditional neighborhood schools--if I were AA I'd be a little miffed that those forcing integration don't have enough trust and confidence in my race to find schools/houses/neighborhoods without painting the picture for me and frankly, playing God. But I digress.
While it's wonderful to know how you'd respond to systemic racism if you were Black, the reality is that you have no idea what you're talking about since you aren't- right?
If integration annoys(ed) you why not speak to that reality based on whoever you actually are? Inevitably that will much more entertaining.
Obviously what happens 'naturally' in our society is not integration. That fact is not due to human nature but to historical precedent created to maintain a multi tiered environment defined by race and class distinctions- but you know that don't you?
So leaving "us" to our own devices will inevitably produce an environment where Americans are separated by race. That is our national design. You know that, as do most of the people reading here, so suggesting that AAs are 'miffed' because evil Brooklynites and upper west siders are insulting them by withholding 'trust and confidence' and 'forcing integration' is a ham fisted attempt at misdirection. It's insulting to suggest that all society needs to do is 'allow' Black people to live, work and educate themselves wherever and however they see fit, free of encumbrances, when historically that freedom of choice has never been a reality.
It's actually Black people who for generations have exhibited endless amounts of 'trust and confidence' in white America- believing them capable of living up to the basic standards of equality.
This. Thank you.
flimbro said:
Obviously what happens 'naturally' in our society is not integration. That fact is not due to human nature but to historical precedent created to maintain a multi tiered environment defined by race and class distinctions- but you know that don't you?
I would invite you to come to Tuxedo Park. In our little corner of South Orange, we are all-inclusive, and yes it happens "naturally".
Flimbro thank you for that response. I'll give you we all have our own experiences that shape our perspectives for sure. It's probably way to big a discussion to go back and forth here--please don't take it as me shying away, I'm just not here too often and when i am it's more my 'release" than it is an invitation to have a meaningful discussion, and that's my bad. I sure could learn more, and possibly help more in this whole 'try to do the right thing' process..and maybe when my life calms down I'll put myself in the line of learning and helping. My quick 411 perspective is that a forced integration can be dangerous to those it's trying to help. I've seen quotas fail and discriminate, I've seen affirmative action both succeed and fail, but that said I do have a head and a heart, don't know all the answers, but to assume that because I am not AA that I have no understanding of integration and all that it entails, is a bit insulting (no offense taken) and limits the potential for rounded discussion. I have seen and felt much, and while I don't have all the answers, I like to think I can contribute to and understand processes. Brooklynites/ UESers = I'd never refer to as evil, where did that come from? Did I use the word annoy? I guess I believe in give people power to make their own choices. See, it's too big a discussion and I need more coffee, and to get moving. Have a good day.
Starsong said:
So let me get this straight--integration is forced, then those that helped force it are complaining it went too far ? Soliciting the "brooklynites and upper west siders [white] worked too well and now the blacks are getting "squeezed out"? Truly I have never understood all the redistricting and bussing and directed housing--let nature take it's course, and traditional neighborhood schools--if I were AA I'd be a little miffed that those forcing integration don't have enough trust and confidence in my race to find schools/houses/neighborhoods without painting the picture for me and frankly, playing God. But I digress.
There is nothing that says integration was forced, we don't bus, redistrict or do directed housing. Please explain how you came to this conclusion.
Starsong said:
Flimbro thank you for that response. I'll give you we all have our own experiences that shape our perspectives for sure. It's probably way to big a discussion to go back and forth here--please don't take it as me shying away, I'm just not here too often and when i am it's more my 'release" than it is an invitation to have a meaningful discussion, and that's my bad. I sure could learn more, and possibly help more in this whole 'try to do the right thing' process..and maybe when my life calms down I'll put myself in the line of learning and helping. My quick 411 perspective is that a forced integration can be dangerous to those it's trying to help. I've seen quotas fail and discriminate, I've seen affirmative action both succeed and fail, but that said I do have a head and a heart, don't know all the answers, but to assume that because I am not AA that I have no understanding of integration and all that it entails, is a bit insulting (no offense taken) and limits the potential for rounded discussion. I have seen and felt much, and while I don't have all the answers, I like to think I can contribute to and understand processes. Brooklynites/ UESers = I'd never refer to as evil, where did that come from? Did I use the word annoy? I guess I believe in give people power to make their own choices. See, it's too big a discussion and I need more coffee, and to get moving. Have a good day.
Obviously you're free to express yourself however you see fit. For me your perspective is immediately discredited when you present it as the opinion you would have if you had a life experience entirely different from the one you actually have. That is amplified when your imagined perspective is one that might actually be harmful to the group you're imagining yourself belonging to. Why not simply state your case based on who you are and what you've lived? That is after all what you're really doing when you say 'if I were AA' isn't it - putting your words and perspectives in the mouths of someone you're not, to suggest that they believe what you believe. Rounded discussion is only possible when you're speaking for yourself and not attempting to speak for both of us.
Obviously where 'equality' is concerned Americans cannot be counted on to do much of anything voluntarily. That's not opinion, its historical fact borne out by hundreds of years of real evidence. If our school district wasn't put on notice we'd still be directing non white students away from AP tracks in droves and mishandling students (of all colors) with special needs. Bottom line is that we need monitoring, direction and accountability.
Well meaning folks like @Rob_Sandow believe that Tuxedo Park and presumably SOMA issued forth 'naturally' and not as the result of a Civil Rights movement and more recently a CCR and various other civic minded groups in the late 70s and 80s. He may not remember redlining, housing discrimination and the restricted areas that dotted this community. Some of us do and we know that change comes as a result of struggle and vigilance- not complacency.
Rob I am curious if you lived in Tuxedo Park before Marshall and Jefferson schools were integrated. I have my own ill-informed opinions about how that action might have affected that neighborhood but I'd love to hear more about it from someone who has been there.
Just the fact that we name our neighborhoods is evidence that we naturally segregate ourselves, whether it's by geography, race, or class.
Rob_Sandow said:
flimbro said:
Obviously what happens 'naturally' in our society is not integration. That fact is not due to human nature but to historical precedent created to maintain a multi tiered environment defined by race and class distinctions- but you know that don't you?
I would invite you to come to Tuxedo Park. In our little corner of South Orange, we are all-inclusive, and yes it happens "naturally".
yahooyahoo said:
Just the fact that we name our neighborhoods is evidence that we naturally segregate ourselves, whether it's by geography, race, or class.
How does "Tuxedo Park", as a name, be evidence that we naturally segregate ourselves? This makes no sense to me. In fact, Tuxedo Park was named as a neighborhood in 1913, after a similarly named town in New York State. It's historic, as are most of the other neighborhood names in South Orange. I still don't understand your allegation.
Rob_Sandow said:How does "Tuxedo Park", as a name, be evidence that we naturally segregate ourselves? This makes no sense to me. In fact, Tuxedo Park was named as a neighborhood in 1913, after a similarly named town in New York State. It's historic, as are most of the other neighborhood names in South Orange. I still don't understand your allegation.
Interestingly, Tuxedo Park in NY was one of the first exclusive gated communities for the wealthy. It is still gated with a grand stone entrance complete with stone guard booth, and only residents and the invited are allowed in.
Rob_Sandow said:
yahooyahoo said:How does "Tuxedo Park", as a name, be evidence that we naturally segregate ourselves? This makes no sense to me. In fact, Tuxedo Park was named as a neighborhood in 1913, after a similarly named town in New York State. It's historic, as are most of the other neighborhood names in South Orange. I still don't understand your allegation.
Just the fact that we name our neighborhoods is evidence that we naturally segregate ourselves, whether it's by geography, race, or class.
My impression was that yahooyahoo was referring to the practice of naming neighborhoods in general, not specifically to Tuxedo Park.
Having lived here only five years, I'd be interested, too, in an answer to mrincredible's historical query, and/or his own opinion.
It's a long story and hard to distill.
At one point (1980s) Marshall was almost all African American and Jefferson was very white. This was reflective of their respective neighborhoods. At the time there was also Montrose school which was also pretty white if I have heard correctly.
Young white families who were moving in were less inclined to choose a house in a neighborhood with an almost all black school (and I think that his was promoted by a few in the realtor community). This was the Era of White Flight and people were influenced by fear and bigotry.
The school district integrated the two schools by instituting the system in place now. Kids from Jefferson school's neighborhood were bused to Marshall for K-2 and then vice versa for 3-5. In short I think that promoted more interest in neighborhoods like Tuxedo Park for families moving in. Home buyers would see a more racially balanced elementary school and not react out of fear. Here we are decades later and to my eye it seems like the neighborhoods around Marshall are much more racially balanced as well. To flimbro's point I think there are a number of factors that contributed but in my mind the planned desegregation can't be overlooked as an influence.
I think I am guilty of oversimplification and generalization here. I am a Marshall parent and I love the school and I love that my daughter has friends from lots of different backgrounds. I don't think we are where we are "naturally" but I'm happy to be corrected. And I'd love to hear from people who lived in these neighborhoods through the changes.
I realize some of the things I've said here might be controversial. It's not my intention to offend and I'll do my best to make it right if I have.
see the post above please.
maps said:
Starsong said:
So let me get this straight--integration is forced, then those that helped force it are complaining it went too far ? Soliciting the "brooklynites and upper west siders [white] worked too well and now the blacks are getting "squeezed out"? Truly I have never understood all the redistricting and bussing and directed housing--let nature take it's course, and traditional neighborhood schools--if I were AA I'd be a little miffed that those forcing integration don't have enough trust and confidence in my race to find schools/houses/neighborhoods without painting the picture for me and frankly, playing God. But I digress.
There is nothing that says integration was forced, we don't bus, redistrict or do directed housing. Please explain how you came to this conclusion.
^^ This reminds me of the argument that we are condescending to minorities by not requiring voter ID because they should be perfectly capable of getting an ID, while at the same time we are closing DMV offices in minority neighborhoods, reducing transit so it's harder for minorities to get to DMV offices, not allowing IDs commonly used by minorities, etc. (Not in NJ, thankfully.)
Starsong said:
see the post above please.
maps said:
Starsong said:
So let me get this straight--integration is forced, then those that helped force it are complaining it went too far ? Soliciting the "brooklynites and upper west siders [white] worked too well and now the blacks are getting "squeezed out"? Truly I have never understood all the redistricting and bussing and directed housing--let nature take it's course, and traditional neighborhood schools--if I were AA I'd be a little miffed that those forcing integration don't have enough trust and confidence in my race to find schools/houses/neighborhoods without painting the picture for me and frankly, playing God. But I digress.
There is nothing that says integration was forced, we don't bus, redistrict or do directed housing. Please explain how you came to this conclusion.
Beat me to it on both counts. Stand by for Seth Boyden Episode II.
mrincredible said:
It's a long story and hard to distill.
At one point (1980s) Marshall was almost all African American and Jefferson was very white. This was reflective of their respective neighborhoods. At the time there was also Montrose school which was also pretty white if I have heard correctly.
Young white families who were moving in were less inclined to choose a house in a neighborhood with an almost all black school (and I think that his was promoted by a few in the realtor community). This was the Era of White Flight and people were influenced by fear and bigotry.
The school district integrated the two schools by instituting the system in place now. Kids from Jefferson school's neighborhood were bused to Marshall for K-2 and then vice versa for 3-5. In short I think that promoted more interest in neighborhoods like Tuxedo Park for families moving in. Home buyers would see a more racially balanced elementary school and not react out of fear. Here we are decades later and to my eye it seems like the neighborhoods around Marshall are much more racially balanced as well. To flimbro's point I think there are a number of factors that contributed but in my mind the planned desegregation can't be overlooked as an influence.
I think I am guilty of oversimplification and generalization here. I am a Marshall parent and I love the school and I love that my daughter has friends from lots of different backgrounds. I don't think we are where we are "naturally" but I'm happy to be corrected. And I'd love to hear from people who lived in these neighborhoods through the changes.
I realize some of the things I've said here might be controversial. It's not my intention to offend and I'll do my best to make it right if I have.
I love that this happened. I mean, it was 40 years ago, at this point it is just the way the town is, are folks still bitter about it? Is there anyone still living there from 40 years ago?
ctrzaska said:
Starsong said:
see the post above please.
maps said:
Starsong said:
So let me get this straight--integration is forced, then those that helped force it are complaining it went too far ? Soliciting the "brooklynites and upper west siders [white] worked too well and now the blacks are getting "squeezed out"? Truly I have never understood all the redistricting and bussing and directed housing--let nature take it's course, and traditional neighborhood schools--if I were AA I'd be a little miffed that those forcing integration don't have enough trust and confidence in my race to find schools/houses/neighborhoods without painting the picture for me and frankly, playing God. But I digress.
There is nothing that says integration was forced, we don't bus, redistrict or do directed housing. Please explain how you came to this conclusion.
Beat me to it on both counts. Stand by for Seth Boyden Episode II.
The Seth Boyden 'opt-in' program was (and I assume still is) voluntary.
http://villagegreennj.com/community/decade-stability-demographics-show-south-orange-maplewood-growing-whiter-wealthier/
http://www.twotowns.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/CCR-Demog-PPT-FINAL-9-28-2016-1.pdftl;dr
Based on census and school enrollment data: the population share of emerging race/ethnic groups (Hispanic, Asian, Multi-racial) in SOMA may equal the black share. What do you make of this with regards to the school district?