Not looking good, it seems the 9 period day at Columbia High School may end when Dr. Ramos and Board of Ed decides Monday 3/21/16 to change it to 8 periods.

Here is the petition.  Last chance to sign:

https://www.change.org/p/dr-john-j-keep-columbia-high-school-s-9-period-schedule

Genuinely curious here because I do think this is a terribly important topic.

I'm looking at the agenda for Monday's BOE meeting here

http://nj.somsd.schoolboard.net/node/3245

and I don't see anything regarding the H.S. schedule.  The only topics for discussion are:

       - Status of district-wide testing/assessment

        - 2016-17 Budget

        - Dyslexia screening policy

        - student rep and committee reports

and there are no action items related the H.S. schedule either.

At what point in the meeting are you expecting a decision on the schedule?  Or do you expect a decision to be made outside of the meeting?

Isn't this part of the budget discussion?

changing the schedule does not require a board vote.  But it may have been part of the committee work done  in the E and E committee.  It may be reported on in Superintendants report and committee report.  I would plan to show up for public speaks if you care about this issue.

The budget discussions so far have dealt with headcount cuts at the high school, but in no public meetings I'm aware of has the scheduling issue even come up as part of the budget discussions, and I don't recall seeing anything about it in any of the published budget presentations.  Maybe I've missed something.  But the 8 vs. 9 periods is a much larger topic than just the budget - it has academic, access, equity, health and other implications that go well beyond money.   One would hope for a fully separate Board discussion on it.  I would be extremely disappointed if this change was made in the confines of a budget discussion - and I kind of doubt it will be. 

Mod, you may be right.  But I would hope that such a change would be considered worthy of a full public board discussion so they can give their advice and perspective, even if there is no formal vote on it.

ice said:

The budget discussions so far have dealt with headcount cuts at the high school, but in no public meetings I'm aware of has the scheduling issue even come up as part of the budget discussions, and I don't recall seeing anything about it in any of the published budget presentations.  Maybe I've missed something.  But the 8 vs. 9 periods is a much larger topic than just the budget - it has academic, access, equity, health and other implications that go well beyond money.   One would hope for a fully separate Board discussion on it.  I would be extremely disappointed if this change was made in the confines of a budget vote - and I kind of doubt it will be.  I hope I'm right.

I agree with you but I've been told that scheduling is an administration function and therefore not requiring a board vote .  Now that isn't to say that it didn't or shouldn't be a topic in committee.  I agree though that there should at least be a discussion.

Given the sensitivity of the topic, I think it merits discussion, but here are my two cents:

1.  I sympathize with those whose kids want to cram in an extra course (I went through much of high school without an official lunch period in order to cram my schedule). However, I also believe and respect the science on teens and sleep issues.  From that perspective, I am only in favor of retaining the 9 period schedule if we can do it with an iron-clad promise that no one is forced to take a Period 1 required class.  It should be truly optional for youth who want the extra course enough to take it at 7:30 AM.

(8th grade accelerated math at 7:30 AM was awful, and I am cheering at the move to teach it at the middle school)

2.  Presumably there is a budget impact to this (and perhaps a class size one too).  We are past the easy cuts, and now will be cutting instructional staff every year for the foreseeable future unless we start using the exceptions to raise taxes as rates well above the cap.  If we restore staff in one place, we will be cutting it in another.  

So I'm not rushing to sign petitions on this, library staffing, arts, pools, or much else, until and unless I understand what would be cut instead...I don't think everyone fully understands the coming storm, but I do believe that our paid and elected professionals are striving to pick least-bad solutions.

https://msg.schoolmessenger.com/m/getdocument.php?s=h3-wWto6QpI&mal=a661ad36b30bb52b594cb68b1da20d0af48197b3ad2fbde3d1bf2160c7787645&p=

So, what do you think this means?

What is a rotating drop schedule?

susan1014 said:

Given the sensitivity of the topic, I think it merits discussion, but here are my two cents:

1.  I sympathize with those whose kids want to cram in an extra course (I went through much of high school without an official lunch period in order to cram my schedule). However, I also believe and respect the science on teens and sleep issues.  From that perspective, I am only in favor of retaining the 9 period schedule if we can do it with an iron-clad promise that no one is forced to take a Period 1 required class.  It should be truly optional for youth who want the extra course enough to take it at 7:30 AM.

Honestly, these two topics should be discussed separately.  My cynical side says that the district wants to cut costs by eliminating a period and latched onto the sleep issue to try to imply that they were doing it for that reason.  A lot of districts across the nation are figuring out how to start later without cutting course offerings.  Our district needs to do the same.  

If they need to cut course offerings for budgetary reasons, then they should say so and have that discussion, but they should not tie it to the later start initiative.

sac said:

If they need to cut course offerings for budgetary reasons, then they should say so and have that discussion, but they should not tie it to the later start initiative.

This.  If it's a budgetary issue than it should have been presented and discussed during the two community budgetary meetings/presentations.

If it's related to the strategic planning, why did Dr. Ramos and BOE member Beth Daugherty tell concerned parents that any changes brought about by the Strategic Plan wouldn't take place until the 2017-18 school year.

Transparency, not so much.

sac said:

susan1014 said:

Given the sensitivity of the topic, I think it merits discussion, but here are my two cents:

1.  I sympathize with those whose kids want to cram in an extra course (I went through much of high school without an official lunch period in order to cram my schedule). However, I also believe and respect the science on teens and sleep issues.  From that perspective, I am only in favor of retaining the 9 period schedule if we can do it with an iron-clad promise that no one is forced to take a Period 1 required class.  It should be truly optional for youth who want the extra course enough to take it at 7:30 AM.

Honestly, these two topics should be discussed separately.  My cynical side says that the district wants to cut costs by eliminating a period and latched onto the sleep issue to try to imply that they were doing it for that reason.  A lot of districts across the nation are figuring out how to start later without cutting course offerings.  Our district needs to do the same.  

If they need to cut course offerings for budgetary reasons, then they should say so and have that discussion, but they should not tie it to the later start initiative.

Agree, the start time issue is cover for their "scheduling for efficiencies"  During budget session they were asked by a board member what the cuts at the HS would look like.  They were told that they would be looking at undersubscribed classes.  They did not mention restricting students to an 8 period schedule or even changing scheduling.  That would have been the time to discuss it.

We have something called Period 0.  It starts around 7 am.  The only class offered in Period 0 is gym.  So, if you want to take a full schedule of 8 classes, you sign up for Period 0 and get your gym requirement out of the way so you dont have to include it in your regular schedule.  Otherwise, gym is one of your classes during the day.  It worked out well for my kid, because the AP science classes were double periods.

There was also the extra benefit of, if you played sports, you only had to take 3 quarters of gym, so you had one quarter where you did not have to get there at 7.

NizhoniGrrrl said:

What is a rotating drop schedule?

I think, and someone who went through it years ago, will likely have to corrct me...BUt Each day a period gets dropped (except for a lunch period).  So, student might have 9 class periods ( including lunch) but the day is only 8 periods long.  Ex: Periods 1-4, 8-9 are 55 minutes long because they only meet 4x week.   Pd 5-6-7 are lunch periods. They cannot be dropped. They would meet 5x/week for 45 minutes each.  Note these are just made up scenarios.  I think the schedule is created a semester/year at a time, so this Monday's schedule might be different from another Monday in a month, due to a holiday, etc.  Not sure if the whole schedule shifts due to a snow day or not. 

One day might be 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 (skip per 1)

next day - 1-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 (omit pd 2)

then 1-2-4-5-6-7-8-9 (omit pd 3)

then 1-2-3-5-6-7-8-9 (omit pd 4)

then 1-2-3-5-6-7-4-9 (omit pd 8)

then 1-2-3-5-6-7-8-4 ( omit pd 9)

I think ?

Once again, like everything else that is perceived as "big news" in SOMA, rotated drop schedules have been used, with success and for decades, in thousands of high schools. So have many other innovations that seem catch everyone off guard because they personally have never heard of it or experienced it. Large unwieldy high schools are a scheduling nightmare, but don't dare try anything new!

I'm fairly certain we had rotating drop schedules when I was at CHS in the 90s. 

annielou said:

but don't dare try anything new!

That has nothing to do with it. 

Students were/are being told not to schedule for more than 8 periods and not more than 35-37 credits, not to schedule for a rotating 9 period schedule.

Students are facing eliminating courses, I guess unless they are deemed "appropriate" enough for a 9th period.  Whatever that means.

ETA: I welcome a rotating 9 period day, but it doesn't look like that what's being considered.  A schedule like Campbell29 mentioned would be great as well.  Many parents have asked our district to be flexible with required PE time especially for students who play one or more sports for CHS.

I teach in a district west of here that is "highly regarded."  We use a four day rotating schedule and all of the staff really like it.  We have 8 periods but only 6 periods meet per day.  Each period is 57 minutes long which means that we can cover more in a class period and go into more depth.  I also get the added benefit of teaching my students at different times of the day.  They can be very different early in the morning versus mid morning. While I'm not a guidance counselor, I have not heard of students ever complaining that there's not enough time in their schedule.  

Here's how it works in our district:

DAY 1

Period 1 (7:40-8:37)

Period 2 (8:43-9:39)

Period 3 (9:43-10:40)

LUNCH/Lab (10:40-11:33)

Period 5 (11:36-12:33)

Period 6 (12:38-1:34)

Period 7 (1:38-2:35)

DAY 2: Periods 2-3-4-LUNCH/LAB-6-7-8

DAY 3: Periods 3-4-1-LUNCH/LAB 7-8-5

DAY 4: Periods 4-1-2-LUNCH/LAB 8-5-6

Perseverance said:

I teach in a district west of here that is "highly regarded."  We use a four day rotating schedule and all of the staff really like it.  We have 8 periods but only 6 periods meet per day.  Each period is 57 minutes long which means that we can cover more in a class period and go into more depth.  I also get the added benefit of teaching my students at different times of the day.  They can be very different early in the morning versus mid morning. While I'm not a guidance counselor, I have not heard of students ever complaining that there's not enough time in their schedule.  

Here's how it works in our district:

DAY 1

Period 1 (7:40-8:37)

Period 2 (8:43-9:39)

Period 3 (9:43-10:40)

LUNCH/Lab (10:40-11:33)

Period 5 (11:36-12:33)

Period 6 (12:38-1:34)

Period 7 (1:38-2:35)

DAY 2: Periods 2-3-4-LUNCH/LAB-6-7-8

DAY 3: Periods 3-4-1-LUNCH/LAB 7-8-5

DAY 4: Periods 4-1-2-LUNCH/LAB 8-5-6

Yes what you have is 8 periods of classes and an extra period for lunch.  So total 9 periods.  What CHS was looking at doing would have been 8 periods total including lunch.  That's where you get into difficulty .

What does Lunch/Lab mean? Do students miss lunch to accommodate labs?

annielou said:

Once again, like everything else that is perceived as "big news" in SOMA, rotated drop schedules have been used, with success and for decades, in thousands of high schools. So have many other innovations that seem catch everyone off guard because they personally have never heard of it or experienced it. Large unwieldy high schools are a scheduling nightmare, but don't dare try anything new!

The middle schools had a rotating schedule as recently as five years ago, so "like everything else that is perceived as "big news" in SOMA" is nothing but snarky ignorant bull*****.

tbd said:

annielou said:

but don't dare try anything new!

That has nothing to do with it. 


Students were/are being told not to schedule for more than 8 periods and not more than 35-37 credits, not to schedule for a rotating 9 period schedule.

Students are facing eliminating courses, I guess unless they are deemed "appropriate" enough for a 9th period.  Whatever that means.

The bit about only scheduling for 8 periods is nothing new -- you have always had to advocate for your child to use all 9 periods.

Got it - I can see why some are concerned!  As to your question, depending on a student's schedule, on a certain rotating day they will have a science lab which last approximately 40 mins so they still have time for a quick lunch.  

Max,

My junior has been allowed to sign up for 8 periods (and a lunch) without us advocating for him.  Now he is being told to only sign up for 7 periods (and a lunch).

Which course to eliminate?

I think it would be awesome! My older kid was at SOMS when they had it and it worked well.

So my daughter is planning on taking next year in her jr year:

Algebra, Chemistry, AP Lang, AP US (2nd part of a 2 year program), AP US Government and Politics, Latin 3, Chamber Choir, Gym and online Psych in January so that she can take AP Psych Sr year. She competes in gymnastics and is planning on joining the track team and has been told that she cannot drop gym  as the district has an outstanding program. She is playing badminton this quarter and has been assigned to golf next quarter. She also participates in reading buddies during lunch so would have to give that up in favor of gym if there are 8 periods which she is quite upset about. I don't see where this is beneficial whatsoever! Would a rotating schedule affect AP courses? 

Yes, it would mean you could take them.

max_weisenfeld said:

annielou said:

Once again, like everything else that is perceived as "big news" in SOMA, rotated drop schedules have been used, with success and for decades, in thousands of high schools. So have many other innovations that seem catch everyone off guard because they personally have never heard of it or experienced it. Large unwieldy high schools are a scheduling nightmare, but don't dare try anything new!

The middle schools had a rotating schedule as recently as five years ago, so "like everything else that is perceived as "big news" in SOMA" is nothing but snarky ignorant bull*****.

Sorry. I thought we were discussing the high school. Since rotating schedules have existed somewhere or at some time in SOMA, why are so many posters in a kerfuffle? I've also happened to notice that, during 30+ years in education, scheduling is the responsibility of the building administrators. Presumably we entrust them to function within their own areas of professional expertise. 

SuzanneNg said:

NizhoniGrrrl said:

What is a rotating drop schedule?

I think, and someone who went through it years ago, will likely have to corrct me...BUt Each day a period gets dropped (except for a lunch period).  So, student might have 9 class periods ( including lunch) but the day is only 8 periods long.  Ex: Periods 1-4, 8-9 are 55 minutes long because they only meet 4x week.   Pd 5-6-7 are lunch periods. They cannot be dropped. They would meet 5x/week for 45 minutes each.  Note these are just made up scenarios.  I think the schedule is created a semester/year at a time, so this Monday's schedule might be different from another Monday in a month, due to a holiday, etc.  Not sure if the whole schedule shifts due to a snow day or not. 

One day might be 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 (skip per 1)




next day - 1-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 (omit pd 2)


then 1-2-4-5-6-7-8-9 (omit pd 3)

then 1-2-3-5-6-7-8-9 (omit pd 4)

then 1-2-3-5-6-7-4-9 (omit pd 8)

then 1-2-3-5-6-7-8-4 ( omit pd 9)




I think ?

When my class of 2009 kid started at CHS they had the rotating 9-period drop schedule more or less as described above.  (I don't remember the exact details and I'm not sure I ever mastered it completely, but the kids knew when to go where, so it was OK.)  I know that the three or four periods in the middle of the day that were lunch periods happened every day, since you obviously can't drop lunch.  The other periods only happened four times a week but were a little bit longer so that every class had the same amount of class time per week.   It was changed to the current 9 period day before she graduated, with all 9 periods every day.  I think the change took effect in the fall of 2007.  At the time of that last change, there was a great deal of angst about it (and you could no doubt find some MOL threads on the topic) because there was a great fear that it meant that course opportunities would be reduced (similar to the current concerns.)  

What are the presumed financial savings of an eight-period day?