NJ Senate Race Heats Up

https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2018/07/20/menendez-jumps-on-hugins-past-opposition-to-allowing-women-gays-into-elite-princeton-club-521396

It's one thing for a teenager or 20 something College Student in the 1970s to harbor prejudice against Gays which' unfortunately, was still common back then. It's something else for a mature married adult to have been antagonistic to women's equality in the 90s.



His financial support of Trump will cost him more than the stuff in the 90's.


I'm not excusing anything that Hugins has done, but Menendez is a sleaze.

Two bad choices, just like the presidential election in '16.


https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2018/05/17/poll-menendez-support-lackluster-while-booker-murphy-fare-better-424850

05/17/2018 10:47 AM EDT

Sen. Bob Menendez is suffering from “lackluster” poll numbers as he runs for reelection in the wake of his corruption trial, according to a poll released this morning.

The Rutgers-Eagleton survey of 704 New Jersey adults finds that 33 percent approve of Menendez’s job performance, while 37 percent disapprove.

.......

The senator’s approval rating is better than how voters feel about him personally. Just 22 percent have a favorable impression, while 35 percent have an unfavorable one.



yahooyahoo said:
I'm not excusing anything that Hugins has done, but Menendez is a sleaze.
Two bad choices, just like the presidential election in '16.

 No matter what one thinks of Menendez or Hugin they are not Trump.


yahooyahoo said:
https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2018/05/17/poll-menendez-support-lackluster-while-booker-murphy-fare-better-424850

05/17/2018 10:47 AM EDT
Sen. Bob Menendez is suffering from “lackluster” poll numbers as he runs for reelection in the wake of his corruption trial, according to a poll released this morning.
The Rutgers-Eagleton survey of 704 New Jersey adults finds that 33 percent approve of Menendez’s job performance, while 37 percent disapprove.
.......
The senator’s approval rating is better than how voters feel about him personally. Just 22 percent have a favorable impression, while 35 percent have an unfavorable one.



 So which ever way the Election goes is a victory for Trump. He either gets to boast about a republican who supported him winning a very "Blue" State or he can rejoice in the re-election of someone with low approval ratings.


LOST said:


yahooyahoo said:
https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2018/05/17/poll-menendez-support-lackluster-while-booker-murphy-fare-better-424850

05/17/2018 10:47 AM EDT
Sen. Bob Menendez is suffering from “lackluster” poll numbers as he runs for reelection in the wake of his corruption trial, according to a poll released this morning.
The Rutgers-Eagleton survey of 704 New Jersey adults finds that 33 percent approve of Menendez’s job performance, while 37 percent disapprove.
.......
The senator’s approval rating is better than how voters feel about him personally. Just 22 percent have a favorable impression, while 35 percent have an unfavorable one.
 So which ever way the Election goes is a victory for Trump. He either gets to boast about a republican who supported him winning a very "Blue" State or he can rejoice in the re-election of someone with low approval ratings.

 I don't follow. Wha?


Agree that if Menendez loses Reps get to crow. But i don’t get the second part... if he wins, it’s basically “meh” all around.  


LOST said:


yahooyahoo said:
I'm not excusing anything that Hugins has done, but Menendez is a sleaze.
Two bad choices, just like the presidential election in '16.
 No matter what one thinks of Menendez or Hugin they are not Trump.

The problem isn't Trump. The problem is the GOP that enables all this corrupt behavior. Hugin = GOP. You are falling in the same trap that GOP put out for the '16 election (all this crap about two bad candidates is BS, we had one corrupt and insane candidate, and one very qualified candidate; the american so-called democratic system elected the idiot, stop blaming it on the candidates)


I’m voting for Menendez, let’s be clear. 

But he is corrupt, period. If the Dems want to keep claiming the moral high ground they need to stop supporting candidates like Menendez.


ctrzaska said:
Agree that if Menendez loses Reps get to crow. But i don’t get the second part... if he wins, it’s basically “meh” all around.  

 guess my attempt at sarcasm fell flat. 


I don’t get the flat out declarations that Menendez is “corrupt.”  He’s been investigated vigorously for going on 2 decades and the most they got on him was that he accepted gifts from a rich friend and didn’t disclose them. The Melgen story imho was a lot of nothing. He lobbied on behalf of his friend. Big deal. If Menendez is corrupt, then so is anyone who ever lobbied a government agency for a contributor or a friend. 

There’s certainly an argument that the entire political establishment is corrupted by money. But I don’t see anything Menendez has done that’s outside the norms of the system as it currently exists. 


ml1 said:
I don’t get the flat out declarations that Menendez is “corrupt.”  He’s been investigated vigorously for going on 2 decades and the most they got on him was that he accepted gifts from a rich friend and didn’t disclose them. The Melgen story imho was a lot of nothing. He lobbied on behalf of his friend. Big deal. If Menendez is corrupt, then so is anyone who ever lobbied a government agency for a contributor or a friend. 
There’s certainly an argument that the entire political establishment is corrupted by money. But I don’t see anything Menendez has done that’s outside the norms of the system as it currently exists. 

 Senator Menendez' problem is that the "favors" in exchange for putting in a good word for his friend, were less sophisticated and perhaps a little more "sleazy" than the "favors" other politicians get.  Real corruption would involve selling votes.

If we vote for someone based on how we hope that person votes, I can only vote for Menendez, not Hugin.  The first vote Hugin would take would be to re-elect Senate Majority Leader McConnell, and I can't vote for that.


ml1 said:
I don’t get the flat out declarations that Menendez is “corrupt.”  He’s been investigated vigorously for going on 2 decades and the most they got on him was that he accepted gifts from a rich friend and didn’t disclose them. The Melgen story imho was a lot of nothing. He lobbied on behalf of his friend. Big deal. If Menendez is corrupt, then so is anyone who ever lobbied a government agency for a contributor or a friend. 
There’s certainly an argument that the entire political establishment is corrupted by money. But I don’t see anything Menendez has done that’s outside the norms of the system as it currently exists. 

 Trump has been investigated for decades as well and he’s still a free man. I guess he didn’t do anything that bad either. 


yahooyahoo said:


ml1 said:
I don’t get the flat out declarations that Menendez is “corrupt.”  He’s been investigated vigorously for going on 2 decades and the most they got on him was that he accepted gifts from a rich friend and didn’t disclose them. The Melgen story imho was a lot of nothing. He lobbied on behalf of his friend. Big deal. If Menendez is corrupt, then so is anyone who ever lobbied a government agency for a contributor or a friend. 
There’s certainly an argument that the entire political establishment is corrupted by money. But I don’t see anything Menendez has done that’s outside the norms of the system as it currently exists. 
 Trump has been investigated for decades as well and he’s still a free man. I guess he didn’t do anything that bad either. 

 He has not been "investigated for decades". In fact, other than lawsuits (in which he fares poorly) and news articles, he's never been officially investigated by anyone.

What is more accurate is that his obvious malfeasance over  the decades has largely been ignored.


The principal purpose of the Republican Party is to use government to help the 1% increase their wealth. Isn't that corruption?



drummerboy said:


yahooyahoo said:

ml1 said:
I don’t get the flat out declarations that Menendez is “corrupt.”  He’s been investigated vigorously for going on 2 decades and the most they got on him was that he accepted gifts from a rich friend and didn’t disclose them. The Melgen story imho was a lot of nothing. He lobbied on behalf of his friend. Big deal. If Menendez is corrupt, then so is anyone who ever lobbied a government agency for a contributor or a friend. 
There’s certainly an argument that the entire political establishment is corrupted by money. But I don’t see anything Menendez has done that’s outside the norms of the system as it currently exists. 
 Trump has been investigated for decades as well and he’s still a free man. I guess he didn’t do anything that bad either. 
 He has not been "investigated for decades". In fact, other than lawsuits (in which he fares poorly) and news articles, he's never been officially investigated by anyone.

What is more accurate is that his obvious malfeasance over  the decades has largely been ignored.

Trump was sued by the Justice Department in the 80s.  I guess there was no investigation, they just magically knew he violated the law.


Menendez embodies much of what is wrong with the Democratic Party IMO -- guy is as sleazy as the day is long, but he's still in office waving the flag for the blue team. I don;t mean that all or even most Dems are like him, but the institutional tolerance of such BS is nauseating. 

Still corrupt after all these years, as Simon and Garfunkel would sing.   




yahooyahoo said:


drummerboy said:

yahooyahoo said:

ml1 said:
I don’t get the flat out declarations that Menendez is “corrupt.”  He’s been investigated vigorously for going on 2 decades and the most they got on him was that he accepted gifts from a rich friend and didn’t disclose them. The Melgen story imho was a lot of nothing. He lobbied on behalf of his friend. Big deal. If Menendez is corrupt, then so is anyone who ever lobbied a government agency for a contributor or a friend. 
There’s certainly an argument that the entire political establishment is corrupted by money. But I don’t see anything Menendez has done that’s outside the norms of the system as it currently exists. 
 Trump has been investigated for decades as well and he’s still a free man. I guess he didn’t do anything that bad either. 
 He has not been "investigated for decades". In fact, other than lawsuits (in which he fares poorly) and news articles, he's never been officially investigated by anyone.

What is more accurate is that his obvious malfeasance over  the decades has largely been ignored.
Trump was sued by the Justice Department in the 80s.  I guess there was no investigation, they just magically knew he violated the law.

 The operative word is "decades." Ml1's statement is accurate.


Smedley said:
Menendez embodies much of what is wrong with the Democratic Party IMO -- guy is as sleazy as the day is long, but he's still in office waving the flag for the blue team. I don;t mean that all or even most Dems are like him, but the institutional tolerance of such BS is nauseating. 
Still corrupt after all these years, as Simon and Garfunkel would sing.   




 Problem was that the woman who challenged him did not seem like a promising choice. I read through many of her emails and her messaging was poor. I was surprised that she got 40% of the vote. I was hoping for a strong contender as I was ready for change.



I saw Menendez on Fox News Sunday morning program (I was at the gym, I didn't tune into Fox on my own volition). He's certainly a smart and articulate guy and he effectively conveyed the D message about opposing Kavanaugh for SCOTUS....but to be honest rather than really listening to what he was saying, I was distracted by thinking about how amazing it is that he's still a sitting US Senator. I'm sure I'm not the only one who reflexively associates him with sleaze and corruption to the extent that it drowns out his message. 


Morganna said:


Smedley said:
Menendez embodies much of what is wrong with the Democratic Party IMO -- guy is as sleazy as the day is long, but he's still in office waving the flag for the blue team. I don;t mean that all or even most Dems are like him, but the institutional tolerance of such BS is nauseating. 
Still corrupt after all these years, as Simon and Garfunkel would sing.   


 Problem was that the woman who challenged him did not seem like a promising choice. I read through many of her emails and her messaging was poor. I was surprised that she got 40% of the vote. I was hoping for a strong contender as I was ready for change.

The problem was that Democratic leaders effectively squashed any legitimate candidates from running by endorsing Menendez.  Booker, Murphy, Sweeney, and other all lined up behind Menendez. It would have been political suicide for anyone with a legitimate future to run.


yahooyahoo said:
I'm not excusing anything that Hugins has done, but Menendez is a sleaze.
Two bad choices, just like the presidential election in '16.

 And look how that turned out.  Hope nobody is completely surprised if Menendez isn't reelected. 


Menendez has not been convicted of any crime. The Jury was thought to be split 10-2 for acquittal. The Government decided to drop the case.

Mr. Trump and his supporters consider the Justice Department to be corrupt and the prosecution of Manafort, as an example, to be a "witch hunt".  It may be interesting to see what Mr. Hugin if confronted by what Trump, Giuliani, et. al. have said about the criminal pursuit of certain public figures.

However, in my opinion, no matter what Menendez may or may not have done in his career, he is not a Republican. That Party is now the Party of Trump who is doing everything he can to destroy this country.

How long will it be before no decent person will be able to remain in the Republican Party?


LOST said:
...
However, in my opinion, no matter what Menendez may or may not have done in his career, he is not a Republican. That Party is now the Party of Trump who is doing everything he can to destroy this country.
How long will it be before no decent person will be able to remain in the Republican Party?

I agree completely with this. 

In a world where Republicans follow their party leadership no matter what, there's sadly no longer any place for moderate Republicans, because while they might (for instance) make a meaningless vote against a Supreme Court nominee in the final confirmation vote when confirmation is assured with or without their help, they will consistently vote to allow the nomination to proceed out of committee, where a "no" vote COULD derail the party plan. 

I'll hold my nose and vote for Menendez, because at the end of the day, votes like that on critical national issues are what really, really matters. 


Sometimes voting for an actual convicted criminal serving a jail sentence is the right thing to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs


All this hand-wringing over the moral character of politicians is childish.  It's kind of like marrying a porn star and then objecting that your spouse has sex with a lot of people.

Of course, they need to be accountable to anti-corruption laws, but to get upset because they aren't as innocent as babes-in-arms is odd.  These are people for whom winning is everything and they  whine, wheedle, wow, coax, smooze, obfuscate, posture, etc. - whatever it takes to win.

So, I look for the candidates who will support government policies that I want to see enacted.


Menendez is indicative of a larger problem with the structure of New Jersey politics -- the dependence on machine politics, pay-for-play, and big money.  While not unique to New Jersey, it is particularly difficult here because of the lack of a New Jersey media market.  Candidates are often ignored by the New York or Philadelphia press, and media buying is very expensive and wasteful as ads cover vastly more than the required market.  This situation allows political bosses like Norcross and Sweeny to operate under the radar.  It also makes it possible for very wealthy outsiders like Murphy to literally buy their way into the state house or governor's mansion.

There is a long way between desirable levels of accountability and "innocent as babes in arms."  To wish someone like Menendez (who I find to be way too close to indictable for my comfort level even if not an actual criminal) be held to a higher standard than "not in jail yet" is not childish in the least, imho.


Two more points, while my rant is flowing.

Yes I will hold my nose and vote for him.

But how the hell can we expect to inspire the new voters we hope to engage with the system, whose votes the Democrats need here and across the country, if we run candidates whose virtue is summed up as "votes right most of the time and is not in jail yet?"


There are fewer people in DC sleazier than Menendez.  But the sleaziest of all is president.  So, my choice is vote for Russia or vote USA.  If Hillary were president, I would consider Hugin, but with Trump rampaging unimpeded, no way would I consider voting for anyone in the GOP


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