Jefferson and Maplewood Avenue

The 15 mph limit starts at (ETA not Dunnell but Durand, sorry) on MA and ends at Baker, and that is the only place it's 15 mph. As mentioned in the Facebook thread, the reason why things are bad at that intersection it twofold:

1. The crest of the hill on Jefferson is 3 house widths from the intersection so cars going over there fast don't have enough room to stop if there's a car in the intersection.

2. Cars on MA have a flashing red light, a stop sign on both sides of the street AND a sign that says that cross-traffic doesn't stop, but still go ahead and get hit... Why? Because in general they *feel* it should be a 4-way stop when it isn't (although some people might cross Jefferson thinking it's clear and then boom! here's a car coming over the hill.)

So the only way this is solved is to re-grade that damned hill. 

We need a trompe l'oeil painting across Jefferson just before the crest of the hill. 

In rainbow. 

Ridski,

"The 15 mph limit starts at Dunnell on MA and ends at Baker"

Do you mean Durand instead of Dunnell?

mrmaplewood said:

Ridski,

"The 15 mph limit starts at Dunnell on MA and ends at Baker"

Do you mean Durand instead of Dunnell?

I do. Thanks for the correction. Will correct that one, and leave this one to explain.

It would be interesting to see what happens to the traffic on Jefferson, if they decide to remove the hump. Might be a great experiment to see how people and emergency vehicles will have to detour and use the other roads suggested that could be one way. I really don’t know why the people who control this town ask for input from people, then do what they want to do anyway. Can’t you see and feel the frustration in this topic? 

Jaytee said:

It would be interesting to see what happens to the traffic on Jefferson, if they decide to remove the hump. Might be a great experiment to see how people and emergency vehicles will have to detour and use the other roads suggested that could be one way. I really don’t know why the people who control this town ask for input from people, then do what they want to do anyway. Can’t you see and feel the frustration in this topic? 

with all due respect, I don't think that's a fair accusation. I can see that intersection from my front door. We've lived here for 20+ years. And the township has made a lot of modifications over the years. And I'd be interested to see if the MPD has stats, but my unscientific assessment is that there are fewer crashes there than 15-20 years ago. 

Dean Dafis also posted on FB a very long response concerning changes the township has implemented there, studies that have been undertaken and plans for future modifications. I think the frustration is that a lot of people want something that really isn't practical there -- a 4-way stop. 

That said there are probably other changes that the township can enact to make the intersection safer. But IMHO it's not fair to imply they aren't listening or acting. Because I've seen everything that's been done there over two decades. And it's far from nothing.  

There’s a flashing signal that is mounted a couple hundred feet before dangerous intersections that tells you whether it’s red light ahead or green. Why can’t they install one? Install rumble strips so it will slow the vehicle. 
Either a four way stop or red lights. But talking about enforcement when the only time you see a cop car is when they’re doing crossing guard duty? What happened to the maplewood police department? They used to be visible in the village years ago, patrolling constantly all over town. People will continue to speed, you can drive at 30 mph in a 25 zone and the jackasses would honk their horns at you! 

Jaytee said:

There’s a flashing signal that is mounted a couple hundred feet before dangerous intersections that tells you whether it’s red light ahead or green. Why can’t they install one? Install rumble strips so it will slow the vehicle.

If a driver is intent on speeding when approaching the hill on Jefferson, I’m trying to imagine the effect that a flashing warning of “Flashing Yellow Light Ahead” or rumble strips would have on him or her.

That’s after I imagine how NJDOT would permit transverse rumble strips on a 25 m.p.h. road (the DOT’s guidance for shoulder and center-line rumble strips is 35 m.p.h. and above) ahead of a flashing yellow light (national guidance is for use ahead of only stops). And pity the homeowners who’d hear that rumble around the clock.

Jaytee said:

There’s a flashing signal that is mounted a couple hundred feet before dangerous intersections that tells you whether it’s red light ahead or green. Why can’t they install one? Install rumble strips so it will slow the vehicle. 
Either a four way stop or red lights. But talking about enforcement when the only time you see a cop car is when they’re doing crossing guard duty? What happened to the maplewood police department? They used to be visible in the village years ago, patrolling constantly all over town. People will continue to speed, you can drive at 30 mph in a 25 zone and the jackasses would honk their horns at you! 

if you want to know the answers to your questions don't ask us. Email Dean Dafis. I'm sure you will get answers and explanations for future plans. 

DaveSchmidt said:

Jaytee said:

There’s a flashing signal that is mounted a couple hundred feet before dangerous intersections that tells you whether it’s red light ahead or green. Why can’t they install one? Install rumble strips so it will slow the vehicle.

If a driver is intent on speeding when approaching the hill on Jefferson, I’m trying to imagine the effect that a flashing warning of “Flashing Yellow Light Ahead” or rumble strips would have on him or her.

That’s after I imagine how NJDOT would permit transverse rumble strips on a 25 m.p.h. road (the DOT’s guidance for shoulder and center-line rumble strips is 35 m.p.h. and above) ahead of a flashing yellow light (national guidance is for use ahead of only stops). And pity the homeowners who’d hear that rumble around the clock.

that last part is not insignificant. 

For those who wanted to know about the status of the drivers - Others might have better information, but I was told by someone who knows the driver of the car that flipped that the driver has a bump on the head and a minor cut, but is otherwise fine. The family is very thankful for side air bags.

The car that flipped was traveling on Jefferson and had the right of way. That car was hit by a driver crossing on Maplewood Ave. I've heard that the other driver also walked away.

I just drove from south orange along Ridgewood road, it’s 15 mph until you get to maplewood it changes to 25. Turned down Jefferson, drove at 25 mph down and I could see the flashing yellow light clearly before I went right over the bump. So it is obviously a question of speed that they can’t see the light until it’s too late. 

Harriet said:

The car that flipped was traveling on Jefferson and had the right of way. That car was hit by a driver crossing on Maplewood Ave. I've heard that the other driver also walked away

Someone mentioned earlier that drivers on Maplewood Avenue may not always realize it’s not a four-way stop. My only experience with trouble at that intersection is when I’m on Jefferson and a vehicle on Maplewood pulls out in front of me. I don’t know if it’s because they think I have a stop sign, or if they’re just trying to beat my 25-m.p.h. approach.

ok, here's the solution!

Make it a 4 way stop.  To fix the issue with a blind hill - put a stop sign at the top of it.  This way cars coming down the hill won't have much speed and will have plenty of time to see any backed up traffic.

So it would say - Stop and proceed with caution.

Problem is few drivers in town obey stop signs, while pedestrians seeing a stop sign have a false sense of security that the approaching vehicle will actually stop.  This is how pedestrians in crosswalks can end up being hit by speeding vehicles.

Jaytee said:

I just drove from south orange along Ridgewood road, it’s 15 mph until you get to maplewood it changes to 25. Turned down Jefferson, drove at 25 mph down and I could see the flashing yellow light clearly before I went right over the bump. So it is obviously a question of speed that they can’t see the light until it’s too late. 

I think the 15mph section of Ridgewood is slowing people down for the intersection with Lenox, between Winthrop and Audley. If you're driving up S. Ridgewood toward South Orange, it goes back up to 25mph after Winthrop Terrace.

So, last night I saw another near accident there as I was at the stop.  It was caused by someone coming up the hill who assumed he had to stop despite the horns of others.  Then he abruptly turned left in front of cars coming down the hill, probably at the speed limit.  The Maplewood Ave side with stops had nothing to do with the incident.  

ridski said:

I think the 15mph section of Ridgewood is slowing people down for the intersection with Lenox, between Winthrop and Audley. If you're driving up S. Ridgewood toward South Orange, it goes back up to 25mph after Winthrop Terrace.

yes, because someone had not stopped coming down Lenox, and t-boned a minivan, resulting in the death of a kid. So now that intersection is a four way stop and a speed limit of 15mph. 
That’s why what Jamie is proposing is doable. Lower the speed limit and make everyone stop when they get to the intersection.

DanDietrich said:

So, last night I saw another near accident there as I was at the stop.  It was caused by someone coming up the hill who assumed he had to stop despite the horns of others.  Then he abruptly turned left in front of cars coming down the hill, probably at the speed limit.  The Maplewood Ave side with stops had nothing to do with the incident.  

I don't what can be done with drivers who don't know basic laws of the road. 

joan_crystal said:

Problem is few drivers in town obey stop signs

That's really just an enforcement problem, isn't it?

Write a couple dozen tickets and people will stop.

Sounds like some (many?) accidents are caused by people who already think there's a stop on Jefferson.  That was the case with my fender bender many years ago, and also some of the incidents others have described here, e.g. what Dan D saw last night.  Seems as though it would be worth a try to actually have a stop on Jefferson, with a warning light or sign at the top of the hill, and/or a stop on Jefferson at Walton.

(For the record, I was coming down the hill on Jefferson.  Driver heading toward SO on Maplewood paused at the stop sign then started up and drove right into the rear quarter of my car.  Happily, no one was hurt.  Unhappily, the other driver asked me not to report to insurance, said they'd pay for damage, then later refused to pay more than 1/2.  Lesson learned.)

GoSlugs said:

joan_crystal said:

Problem is few drivers in town obey stop signs

That's really just an enforcement problem, isn't it?

Write a couple dozen tickets and people will stop.

No.  The entire town has an enforcement problem when it comes to traffic violations.  The problem at the intersection of Maplewood Avenue and Jefferson is compounded by structural problems, the most serious of which is the proximity of the crest of the hill to the intersection.  There is also the perceptual problem of  many drivers considering Maplewood Avenue to be the primary road and Jefferson the secondary road, thus assuming despite signals and signage to the contrary that Maplewood Avenue traffic has the right of way (they don't due in large part to the structural problem of the proximity of the crest of the hill).  

The unfortunate reality is that a whole lot of people should not be driving. There are certainly issues with that intersection that make it tricky. But it takes someone making a pretty egregious error in judgment to get into a crash there, particularly a serious one. excessive speed, ignorance of traffic laws, inattentiveness, failure to heed signs -- it takes at least two of those errors by both drivers to cause a crash at that particular intersection. 

My wife got into an accident there a couple of years ago. She was on Maplewood Avenue stopped behind a teenage driver. A group of teenagers came speeding down Jefferson and turned onto Maplewood Avenue. The driver in front of my wife thought they were going to hit her so she put her car into reverse and hit my wife's car. Fortunately everybody was ok. I go out of my way to avoid that intersection.  

joan_crystal said:

No.  The entire town has an enforcement problem when it comes to traffic violations.  

Why?

Not enough cops? Don't want to pay for more? Entitled people?

Driving involves risk. Speed limit is, say 35. Who is not gonna drive 39 -45? And when we do, we are more worried about a ticket than getting into an accident. But when we drive, we are making assumptions that the roads were designed and maintained in a way that promotes safe operation of a vehicle.

When the roads aren't maintained, say potholes, that condition, combined with speed and inattention, results in a flat tire or even more serious damage to our cars. A website I visit on a daily basis, Democratic Underground, had a video posted to show an accident at an exit ramp off of an interstate. When I asked about the accident, I was responded with, "It happens about once a week." The off ramp was designed with a curve, too acute for cars to exit at the speed with which one assumes they can safely exit a roadway.

There are two in N.J. that are similar. Both off of 78. One is the feeder from 287n to 78E. The other is the feeder from 78E to 24W. Both have had more than their adequate number of accidents. Or take the intersection at Texas Weiner in Union where there is a major accident every two weeks.

287 to 78 was restructured. There was no residential or commercial property to be moved, demolished or torn down. So the ramp was restructured. The ramp from78 to 24 is a hazard to trucks that take the ramp at a rate of speed that results in load shift. Better engineering at the beginning would have resolved the problem But I doubt that one will never be fixed.

Manny's: the problem could be fixed with a left turn only arrow added to the traffic signal to facilitate left turns from Valley onto Springfield Ave. I have no idea why this isn't done.

Which brings us to Jeff.  The problem is an engineering problem that the town doesn't; want to fix. This is because the problem will lead to other problems or it will cost "too much" to fix. One or two people being killed, or several more people being injured or having property (cars) ruined is just collateral damage for driving on that road.

We look at the  examples I write about and ask, why don't they fix all of them? 

mjc said:

Sounds like some (many?) accidents are caused by people who already think there's a stop on Jefferson.  That was the case with my fender bender many years ago, and also some of the incidents others have described here, e.g. what Dan D saw last night.  Seems as though it would be worth a try to actually have a stop on Jefferson, with a warning light or sign at the top of the hill, and/or a stop on Jefferson at Walton.

(For the record, I was coming down the hill on Jefferson.  Driver heading toward SO on Maplewood paused at the stop sign then started up and drove right into the rear quarter of my car.  Happily, no one was hurt.  Unhappily, the other driver asked me not to report to insurance, said they'd pay for damage, then later refused to pay more than 1/2.  Lesson learned.)

Did you know that you could have sued the owner of the car for the difference?

Formerlyjerseyjack said:

Not enough cops? Don't want to pay for more? Entitled people?

Driving involves risk. Speed limit is, say 35. Who is not gonna drive 39 -45? And when we do, we are more worried about a ticket than getting into an accident. But when we drive, we are making assumptions that the roads were designed and maintained in a way that promotes safe operation of a vehicle.

When the roads aren't maintained, say potholes, that condition, combined with speed and inattention, results in a flat tire or even more serious damage to our cars. A website I visit on a daily basis, Democratic Underground, had a video posted to show an accident at an exit ramp off of an interstate. When I asked about the accident, I was responded with, "It happens about once a week." The off ramp was designed with a curve, too acute for cars to exit at the speed with which one assumes they can safely exit a roadway.

There are two in N.J. that are similar. Both off of 78. One is the feeder from 287n to 78E. The other is the feeder from 78E to 24W. Both have had more than their adequate number of accidents. Or take the intersection at Texas Weiner in Union where there is a major accident every two weeks.

287 to 78 was restructured. There was no residential or commercial property to be moved, demolished or torn down. So the ramp was restructured. The ramp from78 to 24 is a hazard to trucks that take the ramp at a rate of speed that results in load shift. Better engineering at the beginning would have resolved the problem But I doubt that one will never be fixed.

Manny's: the problem could be fixed with a left turn only arrow added to the traffic signal to facilitate left turns from Valley onto Springfield Ave. I have no idea why this isn't done.

Which brings us to Jeff.  The problem is an engineering problem that the town doesn't; want to fix. This is because the problem will lead to other problems or it will cost "too much" to fix. One or two people being killed, or several more people being injured or having property (cars) ruined is just collateral damage for driving on that road.

We look at the  examples I write about and ask, why don't they fix all of them? 

Because none of this exists in a vacuum.  Fixes cost money, and no one wants to pay.  We all want the fix, but not the cost.  Most people assume that someone else will have the accident.

It's also a residential street. Does anyone really expect the residents of Jefferson Ave to do without access to their homes and put up with major road construction for weeks or even months to regrade the street, regardless of what it would cost?