Is DeSantis worse than trump?

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

geez suddenly everyone has turned into mt, unable and/or unwilling to answer a direct, straightforward question. 

do I need to answer the same question over and over? Here's my response again to the overall scores among those states:

FL did poorly on cases and deaths long after mitigation efforts were known and understood. NY and NJ got hit very hard by COVID early before we knew what we were dealing with. (You can look back at my previous response quoting Krugman). Scores for the entirety of the pandemic obscure those differences. 

My primary takeaway from the Politico report, as far as relevance to a potential DeSantis presidential campaign, isn't cases and death numbers, it’s the high education score. Why? Because that score supports the notion that DeSantis was right in bucking the trend and forcing FL schools to reopen in Aug 2020, and this is an issue that resonates with purple state suburban voters. DeSantis may have been reckless, he may have gotten lucky in that Covid didn’t wreak havoc in schools, whatever — but 2+ years later, with all the evidence in about how remote learning sucks and how reopened schools were plenty safe, DeSantis’s call looks pretty good. 

Florida handled schools a lot better than San Francisco did, that’s for sure. Progressives will never credit DeSantis for this, but IMO there are lots of independent / crossover voters who will. 

if DeSantis chooses to cherry-pick his policy on school reopening out of the entirety of FL's COVID policies, and the press lets him get away with it, that wouldn't be entirely honest. And that's been my point all along. if the governor and the political pundits want to cheer some of his policies, they should be reporting that the tradeoff was more deaths than if the mitigation policies were more stringent.

that's the point I've been making -- the honest telling of this story is that DeSantis made the political calculation that it was better for him to keep businesses and schools open, even if it meant thousands more deaths. That was the reality all over the country. States made those type of calculations and came to different conclusions.

But is DeSantis being honest about that? Not so far as I can tell. And the narrative in the punditry supports his selective telling of this story.

So no, I don't think a realistic telling of the COVID story in FL in its entirety would be a winner for DeSantis. Because if it was, that's the story he'd be telling.

A political candidate cherry-picking his/her record in a not entirely honest way to play up the positive and de-emphasize the negative? Well I never.

Next you'll be telling me political candidates might run ads attacking their opponents in not entirely honest ways.

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Florida handled schools a lot better than San Francisco did, that’s for sure.

Horseshit. By what measure?

Uh ...Schools reopening after 6 months, versus schools being closed for 2 years, culminating in an embarrassing school board recall that made national news?

if you really think it's horseshit that the first scenario is better than the second, then as you would say, I can't help you. 

well, it wasn't two years, so you're just making **** up at this point.

regardless, you're still wildly off base if you think voters would give a crap. You couldn't find a 10  independent voters who could tell you the difference in how school closings were handled.

hmm, it appears that the schools were closed for a year.

https://www.sfusd.edu/covid-19-response-updates-and-resources/preparing-fall-2021/notice-covid-19-school-closure-dates-sy-2020-2021

Smedley said:

A political candidate cherry-picking his/her record in a not entirely honest way to play up the positive and de-emphasize the negative? Well I never.

Next you'll be telling me political candidates might run ads attacking their opponents in not entirely honest ways.

I'm more criticizing the media for letting him get away with it. I suspect you're not really reading my posts entirely. 

drummerboy said:

well, it wasn't two years, so you're just making **** up at this point.

regardless, you're still wildly off base if you think voters would give a crap. You couldn't find a 10  independent voters who could tell you the difference in how school closings were handled.

hmm, it appears that the schools were closed for a year.

https://www.sfusd.edu/covid-19-response-updates-and-resources/preparing-fall-2021/notice-covid-19-school-closure-dates-sy-2020-2021

right. In SOMA, where schools were closed as long or longer than they were anywhere, IIRC it was less than a year. March 2020 through February 2021. 

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

A political candidate cherry-picking his/her record in a not entirely honest way to play up the positive and de-emphasize the negative? Well I never.

Next you'll be telling me political candidates might run ads attacking their opponents in not entirely honest ways.

I'm more criticizing the media for letting him get away with it. I suspect you're not really reading my posts entirely. 

this isn’t an extensive review, but I’m seeing ample skepticism in the media re: DeSantis Covid record. 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/12/15/gov-ron-desantis-shifting-positions-vaccines-under-fire/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/17/desantis-vaccine-reversal/

https://floridaphoenix.com/2022/09/13/desantis-campaign-ad-touts-that-he-let-kids-go-to-school-omits-when-he-closed-schools-for-covid/

Perhaps show some examples of negligent media coverage. 

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Florida handled schools a lot better than San Francisco did, that’s for sure.

Horseshit. By what measure?

Uh ...Schools reopening after 6 months, versus schools being closed for 2 years, culminating in an embarrassing school board recall that made national news?

if you really think it's horseshit that the first scenario is better than the second, then as you would say, I can't help you. 

well, it wasn't two years, so you're just making **** up at this point.

regardless, you're still wildly off base if you think voters would give a crap. You couldn't find a 10  independent voters who could tell you the difference in how school closings were handled.

hmm, it appears that the schools were closed for a year.

https://www.sfusd.edu/covid-19-response-updates-and-resources/preparing-fall-2021/notice-covid-19-school-closure-dates-sy-2020-2021

well then the Democrat should coast vs. DeSantis. Probably will sweep the swing states. Maybe the Dem can even promise to make one of the ousted SF board members the secretary  of education, you know just for extra burn. 

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

A political candidate cherry-picking his/her record in a not entirely honest way to play up the positive and de-emphasize the negative? Well I never.

Next you'll be telling me political candidates might run ads attacking their opponents in not entirely honest ways.

I'm more criticizing the media for letting him get away with it. I suspect you're not really reading my posts entirely. 

this isn’t an extensive review, but I’m seeing ample skepticism in the media re: DeSantis Covid record. 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/12/15/gov-ron-desantis-shifting-positions-vaccines-under-fire/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/17/desantis-vaccine-reversal/

https://floridaphoenix.com/2022/09/13/desantis-campaign-ad-touts-that-he-let-kids-go-to-school-omits-when-he-closed-schools-for-covid/

Perhaps show some examples of negligent media coverage. 

here's one from the Atlantic that's mostly praiseworthy, including only a couple of mildly critical points.

DeSantis’s COVID Gamble Paid Off 

Florida’s governor turned his coronavirus policies into a parable of American freedom.

here's one from Axios that's mostly positive as well:

COVID could be DeSantis' secret weapon in 2024

If it turns out I'm wrong and DeSantis gets more criticism than praise in mainstream outlets for his covid response, I'll be happy to be wrong and admit it. But the past couple of decades of horse race coverage makes me skeptical.   The issue probably won't be covered in a factual way as much as it will be covered in a "this is good for DeSantis" way.

The first two links click back to MOL threads. The Axios article seems reasonable enough to me.

I think ultimately your last sentence is telling. "The issue probably won't be covered in a factual way as much as it will be covered in a "this is good for DeSantis" way." So to you the issue being covered in a factual way, and the issue being good for DeSantis, are mutually exclusive - which means the only way to factually cover the issue is for it to not be good for DeSantis. So yeah, viewing media coverage through that prism, you're not gonna be happy with much outside of the real left / far left outlets.  

Smedley said:

The first two links click back to MOL threads. The Axios article seems reasonable enough to me.

I think ultimately your last sentence is telling. "The issue probably won't be covered in a factual way as much as it will be covered in a "this is good for DeSantis" way." So to you the issue being covered in a factual way, and the issue being good for DeSantis, are mutually exclusive - which means the only way to factually cover the issue is for it to not be good for DeSantis. So yeah, viewing media coverage through that prism, you're not gonna be happy with much outside of the real left / far left outlets.  

from a human perspective "good for DeSantis" politically is not a good analysis.  "Good for Floridians" (or not) is the proper way for anyone with any humanity to write it. But that's now how pundits see the world. 

And I fixed the links

I don’t disagree that “good for Floridians” is the proper criteria on which to judge DeSantis, but what is the key metric for that? In my view it’s the ballot box. DeSantis had a blowout re-election in a historically purple state, winning by ~20 points which included taking a few traditional Democrat strongholds. So whether you love him or hate him, you have to admit that many Floridians, beyond just conservatives, think DeSantis is good for Floridians. Which to me carries more weight than me or you, or some media pundit, judging or moralizing whether he’s good for Floridians. 

Smedley said:

I don’t disagree that “good for Floridians” is the proper criteria on which to judge DeSantis, but what is the key metric for that? In my view it’s the ballot box. DeSantis had a blowout re-election in a historically purple state, winning by ~20 points which included taking a few traditional Democrat strongholds. So whether you love him or hate him, you have to admit that many Floridians, beyond just conservatives, think DeSantis is good for Floridians. Which to me carries more weight than me or you, or some media pundit, judging or moralizing whether he’s good for Floridians. 

Your simplistic analyses of electoral politics are such a joy to read.

Thanks for the compliment, but there's really no analysis of electoral politics in the post you quoted, I just stated the obvious. I imagine you have some alternative theory on why DeSantis won, like unfair MSM coverage of Democrats or something.  

Smedley said:

I don’t disagree that “good for Floridians” is the proper criteria on which to judge DeSantis, but what is the key metric for that? In my view it’s the ballot box. DeSantis had a blowout re-election in a historically purple state, winning by ~20 points which included taking a few traditional Democrat strongholds. So whether you love him or hate him, you have to admit that many Floridians, beyond just conservatives, think DeSantis is good for Floridians. Which to me carries more weight than me or you, or some media pundit, judging or moralizing whether he’s good for Floridians. 

so is your argument that DeSantis's response to COVID shouldn't be criticized because he won reelection handily? That's the key metric? So that Politico report card you linked to is bogus because the election results override it? Does the same hold for the guy in the image below? 

(Of course I'm going to have to puzzle out how this worked in our great state where the governor had very positive polling on his COVID response, yet still almost lost his reelction campaign.)

This was from earlier in 2022:

Meanwhile, 67% of New Jerseyans say Murphy has done a good job handling the pandemic, while 25% say he’s done a bad job. His pandemic rating has never fallen below 60% in Monmouth’s polls.

maybe only Floridians know what's good for them? 

Smedley said:

Thanks for the compliment, but there's really no analysis of electoral politics in the post you quoted, I just stated the obvious. I imagine you have some alternative theory on why DeSantis won, like unfair MSM coverage of Democrats or something.  

Unlike you, I don't make up theories based on my ability to read the minds of millions of voters.

OTOH, something that is clearly a fact is that the Democratic Party in Florida is a shitshow. Running Christ? Good idea. Let's see how many times the guy can lose.

drummerboy said:

Unlike you, I don't make up theories based on my ability to read the minds of millions of voters.

OTOH, something that is clearly a fact is that the Democratic Party in Florida is a shitshow. Running Christ? Good idea. Let's see how many times the guy can lose.

the Floridians who died of COVID didn't get to weigh in on DeSantis's reelection. 

drummerboy said:

Running Christ? Good idea. Let's see how many times the guy can lose.

Anybody else want to touch that line?

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

Running Christ? Good idea. Let's see how many times the guy can lose.

Anybody else want to touch that line?

I think he'd lose less often if he wasn't holding on to that other guy.

DaveSchmidt said:

Anybody else want to touch that line?

Pretty sure he mean Crist. The guy named Christ was briefly a Florida resident, but my understanding is DeSantis put him onto a chartered flight out of state.

ml1 said:

so is your argument that DeSantis's response to COVID shouldn't be criticized because he won reelection handily? 

My initial interest in this discussion was refuting the notion that it was "astounding" that the MSM is allowing RDS to claim he handled Covid well, when (1) there is a legitimate data-supported argument that he handled covid well, and (2) the MSM is covering RDS with ample skepticism. 

That is my argument.  

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Thanks for the compliment, but there's really no analysis of electoral politics in the post you quoted, I just stated the obvious. I imagine you have some alternative theory on why DeSantis won, like unfair MSM coverage of Democrats or something.  

Unlike you, I don't make up theories based on my ability to read the minds of millions of voters.

OTOH, something that is clearly a fact is that the Democratic Party in Florida is a shitshow. Running Christ? Good idea. Let's see how many times the guy can lose.

Well RDS has a strong approval rating, and research has shown that incumbent's strong approval rating can deter the best and the brightest from the other party from running (you know, a causative factor for an election). The Florida Dems needed someone to play the role of Walter Mondale or the Washington Generals, and Crist was the guy. 

PVW said:

DaveSchmidt said:

Anybody else want to touch that line?

Pretty sure he mean Crist. The guy named Christ was briefly a Florida resident, but my understanding is DeSantis put him onto a chartered flight out of state.

oops

drummerboy said:

oops

Don't worry about it. People like DeSantis can't recognize Christ either.

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

so is your argument that DeSantis's response to COVID shouldn't be criticized because he won reelection handily? 

My initial interest in this discussion was refuting the notion that it was "astounding" that the MSM is allowing RDS to claim he handled Covid well, when (1) there is a legitimate data-supported argument that he handled covid well, and (2) the MSM is covering RDS with ample skepticism. 

That is my argument.  

sheesh. we've been through this over and over already. Point 1 requires leaving out inconveniently negative outcomes from the data. A data-supported argument that ignores some of the data isn't really any better than a non-data supported argument.

Point 2 still remains to be seen when/if DeSantis runs for president. I hope I'm wrong about the coverage. 

and yeah, my bad on the word "astounding." It should have been "not surprising."

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

so is your argument that DeSantis's response to COVID shouldn't be criticized because he won reelection handily? 

My initial interest in this discussion was refuting the notion that it was "astounding" that the MSM is allowing RDS to claim he handled Covid well, when (1) there is a legitimate data-supported argument that he handled covid well, and (2) the MSM is covering RDS with ample skepticism. 

That is my argument.  

sheesh. we've been through this over and over already. Point 1 requires leaving out inconveniently negative outcomes from the data. A data-supported argument that ignores some of the data isn't really any better than a non-data supported argument.

Point 2 still remains to be seen when/if DeSantis runs for president. I hope I'm wrong about the coverage. 

and yeah, my bad on the word "astounding." It should have been "not surprising."

Well if you had said not surprising rather than astounding at the outset I probably wouldn't have been interested enough to weigh in. 

And wrt "A data-supported argument that ignores some of the data isn't really any better than a non-data supported argument."  
I guess, but that calls into question your own argument which seems to be based exclusively on Covid deaths and cases in Florida in 2021. Those numbers are bad, so that means FL's Covid response was bad, period, end of story.

Smedley said:

I guess, but that calls into question your own argument which seems to be based exclusively on Covid deaths and cases in Florida in 2021. That number is bad, so that means FL's Covid response was bad, period, end of story.

Depends on one's point of view, perhaps.

nohero said:

Smedley said:

I guess, but that calls into question your own argument which seems to be based exclusively on Covid deaths and cases in Florida in 2021. That number is bad, so that means FL's Covid response was bad, period, end of story.

Depends on one's point of view, perhaps.

I couldn't agree more. You can even drop the "perhaps".

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

so is your argument that DeSantis's response to COVID shouldn't be criticized because he won reelection handily? 

My initial interest in this discussion was refuting the notion that it was "astounding" that the MSM is allowing RDS to claim he handled Covid well, when (1) there is a legitimate data-supported argument that he handled covid well, and (2) the MSM is covering RDS with ample skepticism. 

That is my argument.  

sheesh. we've been through this over and over already. Point 1 requires leaving out inconveniently negative outcomes from the data. A data-supported argument that ignores some of the data isn't really any better than a non-data supported argument.

Point 2 still remains to be seen when/if DeSantis runs for president. I hope I'm wrong about the coverage. 

and yeah, my bad on the word "astounding." It should have been "not surprising."

Well if you had said not surprising rather than astounding at the outset I probably wouldn't have been interested enough to weigh in. 

And wrt "A data-supported argument that ignores some of the data isn't really any better than a non-data supported argument."  
I guess, but that calls into question your own argument which seems to be based exclusively on Covid deaths and cases in Florida in 2021. Those numbers are bad, so that means FL's Covid response was bad, period, end of story.

I don't know why I bother. Either you aren't really paying attention, or you're purposely misrepresenting. My point is not that the entire 2+ year arc of COVID isn't relevant to pay attention to. But a topline number can be misleading if there are underlying trends or other data breakouts that shed more light.  

And yes, in the case of COVID, there were several distinct phases of the pandemic that should be looked at separately to understand what was going on. There was the initial phase in which states like NY and NJ did very poorly. Then there was the business/school closure phase.  The post-vaccine phase. Delta wave, omicron wave, etc. States handled each of those phases differently and got different outcomes.

For example, if FL's COVID response was so good, why were hospitalization rates in the summer of 2021 and 2022 significantly higher than NJ's among every age group (not just seniors)? In '22 they were twice NJ's and in '21 they were four times as high.

If anyone wants to make the case that the tradeoff of more cases in states that had fewer COVID restrictions, that's their opinion and it's hard to argue with. But I don't think any politicians really want to make that case, even if it's true.

ml1 said:

If anyone wants to make the case that the tradeoff of more cases in states that had fewer COVID restrictions, that's their opinion and it's hard to argue with. But I don't think any politicians really want to make that case, even if it's true.

I don't get what you're saying here at all. Of course politicians such as DeSantis will make just this case. He's already doing it. This is the whole crux of the argument and the rationale for doing what he did. 

Now of course RDS is not going to explicitly say "By reopening Florida early, I was willing to trade 100k more Covid cases, for 2 percentage points in academic achievement and 0.5% more employment" (or whatever the numbers would be). But every time he talks about the choices he made as governor wrt covid, it's all about tradeoffs.  

If it was only about protecting people from Covid and minimizing case numbers, and nothing else, then yes, RDS failed in Florida. But there's more to it than that. 

(Incidentally, if it was only all about protecting people from covid, NJ should close schools and reinstate social distancing and mask mandates effective immediately, because it ain't over.)   

Apparently the veterans to teachers program by DeSantis is not working…Six months after DeSantis signed the state’s veteran to teacher certification pathway into law, only 7 veterans have been approved for certification across all 70-plus school districts. This guy really doesn’t think things through before he does it. Yes, he is worse than trumpenstein, and that’s what makes him scary. 

All this anti-wokeness by Ron seems to me like he’s really fighting for the trumpists to vote for him in the primary. He makes trumpenstein looks like an amateur for real. If America has never experienced what a dictatorship looks like. Let me introduce you to Ronnie…

The guy got married at Disney world!