In the news

Wasn't sure if this one goes under Maplewood or Parenting...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/16/opinion/sunday/only-white-people-said-the-little-girl.html

It's amazing this is getting NO attention on MOL (leaf blowers, Trump, anyone?). I am so, so sorry for what this Father experienced. This is not the Maplewood I know. I walk by that park a dozen times a week and take pride in the mix of kids and parents playing happily together and am grateful to raise children in a place that is (or usually is, at least) tolerant and inclusive. I hope that if my child EVER said such a thing - they haven't and I wouldn't expect them to - but kids are sponges and you never know... someone would tell me. I would thank them for telling me, apologize, feel my heart breaking, and then sit my kid down for multiple conversations.

Maizy said:

This is not the Maplewood I know.

It actually is, but not because the parents are biased. I can't even count how many times I've read here on MOL one parent or another being so proud that their children "didn't see race." One parent mentioned how their child described their skin as "blond" since the child didn't realize they were white. Parents who do this do it with the best of intentions, but research has shown it doesn't work.

Though many parents claim to not broach the subject in the hopes making their children "colorblind" I think there is a second, more selfish reason. It is difficult to discuss race, and since white parents with white children don't have to, unlike parents with children of color, it is easier to ignore it and pretend it will go away.

http://www.academia.edu/3094721/Children_Are_Not_Colorblind_How_Young_Children_Learn_Race

I do hope the parent in the article recognizes this as their child (or as potentially their child)... but I doubt it.

When my daughter was around 5, she told me that people with brown skin couldn't marry someone with light skin. I tried to think of a way to approach this at a 5-year-old's level, and ended up reminding her of her many friends who have mommies and daddies with different color skin. I asked where she heard this, but she said she didn't know.

I was surprised, but at the same time, not surprised.

Spontaneous, I have tried to broach the subject and history of race with my young elementary school kids for precisely this reason, and it was very hard for the right message to get through to little people that have no context or perspective. And Sprout, I also had my five year old tell me that people of different skin color didn't get married - no idea where she got it - and I spent a lot of time explaining it was wrong and pulling up examples of biracial couples we know. I guess this is my point, kids say all kinds of crazy stupid sh*t that may have nothing to do with what their parents teach them (again, no idea what led to the specific incident in the article). I completely understand and appreciate the hesitation the Father had in approaching the mother in that instance, but if I were that mom I would definitely want to know what my daughter had said so that I could have a series of difficult conversations with her.

I think it's easier as a Mom to say something to another Mom... or as a Mom to say something directly to the girl on the spinning thing.

The only people I know who have white skin are albinos who lack pigmentation. All of the rest of us have skin in some shade of orange ranging from very light orange to very dark brown. None of us have black skin. In addition to some shade of brown, all of us have undertones to our skin color which may be pink, yellow, red, blue, or purple. At what point does one's skin color become just light enough or just dark enough for us to place that person in the category of black or white? What do we do with all the rest who fall in the indeterminate zone? How do skin undertones come into play? Isn't it strange that we have red/green color blindness and yellow/blue color blindness; but all of us seem to be able to discern shades of orange so clearly?

Surely, there must be something other than skin tone at play here when children playing in a playground make this kind of distinction. Why don't they focus on hair color? Too easy to change through use of hair dye? Too likely to change naturally as one ages? Why don't they focus on eye color? Too difficult to determine if the subject is wearing glasses? Too easy to change with tinted contact lenses?

This would be getting way more attention with a better subject line. "Maplewood racial incident in New York Times" or "racism on Maplewood playgrounds."

I agree ^^^

Calling a 5 year old a racist is way over the top, let alone in print.

Robert_Casotto said:

Calling a 5 year old a racist is way over the top, let alone in print.

What about a 5 year old who is being excluded from playing because of his skin color? Can we look at things from his point of view for a change? Even if that 5 year old girl was not being racist, to that boy, the impact may be the same, don't you think? While we can "excuse" the little girl for being young, how that does justify the harm done to the other child?

Of course the girl was acting in a racist manner, how else could you describe this? This is just unacceptable and calls for some action - maybe a teach in?

I liked when my preschoolers, without any prompting from me, used crayon colors to describe people's skin tones. Their father is an artist, and they drew constantly, more than usual, so it seemed natural to me that they would think in those terms. I remember the first time I noticed that they did this in referencing a child as the one who was peach-colored vs. tan-colored.

Since I am not five years old, It seems very artificial to describe people this way myself. If there are two people, one dark-skinned and the other light-skinned, and I need to point one of them out to someone else, it feels natural to me to say, the African American vs. the white or Caucasian. However, I often find myself referencing their clothing, 'the one in the green shirt.' Why? I am trying to deemphasize race.

I'm curious about other's reactions to this: when looking at two people and referencing one of them, which characteristic do you think of or mention? For me it would be 1) gender if one was male and the other female and there was an obvious difference, 2) age if they were both of the same gender and one was obviously older, 3) skin tone if they seemed to be of two different races, 4) location, 'the one closer to the door,' or 'closer to me,' 5) behavior, 'the loud one,' if behavior was very different, 6) clothing or color of clothing.

As I said earlier, because I think mentioning skin tone could be perceived as racist, I shy away from it even though to me it feels like an obvious difference. I must be awkward about it because I am teased for being politically correct to a fault, and I probably am. But I am hyper-vigilent about lots of things, which makes me feel uncomfortably self-conscious as I go through life.

I would like to recommend the book, You Can't Say You Can't Play. It is enlightening. I'm kind of curious about this little girl who said, 'only white people.' I'm curious about whether she tends to exclude other kids and be the boss and was this one iteration of that. Does she sometimes say, 'only girls,'/'no boys,' or 'only Jennie and Mike,' or 'no dummies,' but on this day, 'only white people?' To understand her racist comment, I think it's important to understand more about her, which is impossible under the circumstances.

I think it's important to equip our children with ways to address the things they witness and hear whether it's directed at them or someone else. This is what some of the conversation needs to be about. What are children who are bystanders to this kind of behavior supposed to do? It's important to practice at home because most children are not naturally inclined to either intervene or stop the fun to tell a parent that someone is being mean. And the person who is the target may not naturally stand up for him or herself. So practicing this is important. It's part of being aware of bullying, and how to address and/or prevent it.

I don't think I can truly understand the experience of an African American, Asian American or anyone else. I would like to understand better. My guess is I did an awkward job of talking to my kids about it. So learning about resources would be good. What are some that you can recommend?

@lisat Words can have many layers of meaning. Often, they take on a power far beyond their surface meaning because of the impact we bestow upon them. Consciously avoiding their use when these words may be on the surface the most accurate way of describing a person, object, location, etc. can be considered supporting/acknowledging that layer of meaning every bit as much as using it. Often it is the context or intonation that leads to my discomfort rather than the word itself.

I think avoiding describing persons by their skin tone when that is the most accurate distinguisher is in itself giving in to the concept of racist labeling. If skin color is the major distinction between two persons, in the interests of accuracy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using skin tone to identify which of the two persons you are referring to in your description. Similarly if one of the two persons is much shorter than the other, am I to be considered prejudiced against "little people" if I say the shorter one in describing whom I am referring to?

Welp, he didn't want to say anything at the time, but decided instead to mention it in the NYT.

He did mention the town.

He did mention the day.

And he did mention it was a day care class reunion.

And numbers being what they are only half of those kids will be girls.

And not all those girls were white.

And only a few will be only with their mom.

And not all of them played on the 1 person at a time spinny thing they have over there

And he says he shared his concerns with a few people in the group.

So the mother of the child most certainly is going to find out this is being said about her kid, and is most certainly going to find out she's raising "a little racist."

It'll be interesting to see if anyone on this crowded playground heard it too, or didn't.

Kids can be so cruel.

If we put them in a greater rush to grow up and Get Educated, that 'ought to fix everything. Us grown-ups dress everything up in complexity, and have to work much harder to be cruel to one another. That makes us way smarter.

Jackson_Fusion said:


It'll be interesting to see if anyone on this crowded playground heard it too, or didn't.

I'm not sure what this means.

FC_ said:

Jackson_Fusion said:


It'll be interesting to see if anyone on this crowded playground heard it too, or didn't.

I'm not sure what this means.

It means there may be more than one version of what happened or did not happen on the playground during the time period under discussion.

Crossposted from the other MOL thread on this subject:

Quote from above cited article:

"My instinct was to go over and drop science on her and all of the other little children. But then my systems kicked in. My automatic scary­ black­man recalibration systems."

The author decided that it was not appropriate for whatever reason to mention anything to those involved at the time the incident occurred because he was afraid his son would be further ostracized; but, thought it was fine to relay the incident as he he saw it on the OP Ed page of the New York Times, naming date, place, and reason for the gathering in such a way that the identity of the child being criticized would be readily identifiable to a far larger segment of our community than those gathered that day on the playground.

I am not suggesting that this discussion should not take place either in our community or in the catchment area of the New York Times. I just think there are better ways of dealing with it on a local level. I am not sure that an MOL thread and a companion thread on Facebook, both of which provide sufficient information for at least some of us to be able to immediately identify the children under discussion is the way to go.

We need to hold this conversation but it needs to be treated more globally than to focus on the example a single interaction between two five year old children.

The column wouldn't lose any impact to anyone in the NYT readership if the writer had been a bit less specific about who was involved. As wonderful as we think we are, 99% of people would read "Maplewood" and forget the name by the next paragraph.

For the family being accused of raising a racist however, being compared to "Dominic's" repellant mother, living here in an incredibly diverse community, attending very diverse public schools, making their way to the playground to see their old diverse group of friends, this morning is a brutal morning. Utterly brutal.

As a dad, and father of a friend, the author could have stepped up and said something in the moment- as a father does, as an adult does, the same way we all watch out for our neighbor's little munchkins.

It's never the most comfortable thing for anyone of any color to point out the bad behavior of someone's child. You never know how they're going to react with certitude. If you feel strongly enough and you have love in your heart and want to help, genuinely, help mold a decent human being in some small way you take a deep breath and you do it.

He went another way. Did he ever.

And he was as specific as he could have been without naming a name, which his editors wouldn't have let him do anyway. That the child would be nearly instantly identifiable could not possibly be lost on him.

I think children need to be actively and continuously taught to be non-judgemental and inclusive. And this training needs to continue until we are dead. Because I think there are human tendencies to be mean and exclusive for any number of reasons.

Unless there is some reason to believe the parents of this child are teaching racism at home, I think this article is way out of control.

I get that it can be difficult for the father to raise this issue with the mother of the child, but this is exactly what needed to happen.

tjohn said:


Unless there is some reason to believe the parents of this child are teaching racism at home, I think this article is way out of control.

Though I am definitely open to the very strong possibility that the parents are NOT teaching this at home (see my above posts) I am also willing to give the father a pass. I can understand where this, and a few other, posts are coming from, but I can also completely understand the father being overwhelmed with a sense of anger, outrage, frustration, and helplessness. Especially in terms of seeing his son treated this way, regardless of how the son blew it off.

spontaneous said:

tjohn said:


Unless there is some reason to believe the parents of this child are teaching racism at home, I think this article is way out of control.

Though I am definitely open to the very strong possibility that the parents are NOT teaching this at home (see my above posts) I am also willing to give the father a pass. I can understand where this, and a few other, posts are coming from, but I can also completely understand the father being overwhelmed with a sense of anger, outrage, frustration, and helplessness. Especially in terms of seeing his son treated this way, regardless of how the son blew it off.

Let's be clear on that- you are 100% right. I'd be sick over it if it were my kid being told something like that. Being upset about it is a completely reasonable and justified reaction. I don't know how you COULDN'T be crushed by it. Or even furious.

After reflecting on it he could have still addressed it. It didn't have to be in that moment, if he was afraid people were going to freak out or whatever. Maybe that would have been the best way, in a quiet place, not in front of a bunch of people. "Hi- I want to talk to you about something your daughter did the other day that you need to know about and handle". He still could have written an article that would have no chance of landing on the 5 year old... Or "the little racist" as he calls her.

Good point. On the flip side of what I wrote above, if the parents of the little girl were able to recognize themselves from this article, I can also understand them reacting with anger, outrage, frustration, and helplessness.

There is no easy answer.

Of course, once the issue is amplified in this manner, the probability of it be handled well decreases.

I don't actually remember there being a "spinning" thing in Memorial park. Doesn't change the story if it's true.

goldy said:

I don't actually remember there being a "spinning" thing in Memorial park. Doesn't change the story if it's true.

There is one. I almost threw up when I tried it. Do not recommend.

Jackson_Fusion said:

It'll be interesting to see if anyone on this crowded playground heard it too, or didn't.

Topher Sanders is a career reporter, and ProPublica is an excellent news organization. While well aware of exceptions in the profession, I'm going to trust him on that one.

What thought Mr. Sanders gave to the identifiability of the girl and her family, or to alternative reasons behind her behavior, or to other ways of writing about the experience, I don't know. He does sound like a thoughtful individual, however.

For those who missed it, here is an almost concurrent comparison in The Times, showing how another journalist handled and related a similar situation:

An Open Letter to the Woman Who Told My Family to Go Back to China

DaveSchmidt said:

Jackson_Fusion said:

It'll be interesting to see if anyone on this crowded playground heard it too, or didn't.

Topher Sanders is a career reporter, and ProPublica is an excellent news organization. While well aware of exceptions in the profession, I'm going to trust him on that one.

What thought Mr. Sanders gave to the identifiability of the girl and her family, or to alternative reasons behind her behavior, or to other ways of writing about the experience, I don't know. He does sound like a thoughtful individual, however.

For those who missed it, here is an almost concurrent comparison in The Times, showing how another journalist handled a similar situation:

An Open Letter to the Woman Who Told My Family to Go Back to China

Thanks for the effort Dave, but as tjohn so thoughtfully advances...

tjohn said:

Of course, once the issue is amplified in this manner, the probability of it be handled well decreases.

Yes indeedy, we are always better off being quiet about such events. Bringing attention to it will only make people uncomfortable and maybe even angry! Best not to bring anything up at all, lest the poor girl's parents figure out who is being discussed and suffer embarrassment or even worse- outrage, frustration or helplessness. (Oh no! Not helplessness!) The proper response here is to profess how 'bad' we all feel for the poor father and his son and then immediately ask him to never ever ever bring it up again. Or to only mention any future brush with what may or may not be racism in a medium with far fewer readers. Better yet, talk to your wife about the episode in private at home after hours in the dark so no one else would actually be troubled by having to hear about it.

Here's an idea: teach your kid not to say dumb siht. It's what I did and it worked. When they say something inappropriate, stop them and explain why they're never to say that again and if they do- you punish them. Repeat as needed- it's called discipline.

Problem solved.

flimbro said:

DaveSchmidt said:

Jackson_Fusion said:

It'll be interesting to see if anyone on this crowded playground heard it too, or didn't.

Topher Sanders is a career reporter, and ProPublica is an excellent news organization. While well aware of exceptions in the profession, I'm going to trust him on that one.

What thought Mr. Sanders gave to the identifiability of the girl and her family, or to alternative reasons behind her behavior, or to other ways of writing about the experience, I don't know. He does sound like a thoughtful individual, however.

For those who missed it, here is an almost concurrent comparison in The Times, showing how another journalist handled a similar situation:

An Open Letter to the Woman Who Told My Family to Go Back to China

Thanks for the effort Dave, but as tjohn so thoughtfully advances...

tjohn said:

Of course, once the issue is amplified in this manner, the probability of it be handled well decreases.

Yes indeedy, we are always better off being quiet about such events. Bringing attention to it will only make people uncomfortable and maybe even angry! Best not to bring anything up at all, lest the poor girl's parents figure out who is being discussed and suffer embarrassment or even worse- outrage, frustration or helplessness. (Oh no! Not helplessness!) The proper response here is to profess how 'bad' we all feel for the poor father and his son and then immediately ask him to never ever ever bring it up again. Or to only mention any future brush with what may or may not be racism in a medium with far fewer readers. Better yet, talk to your wife about the episode in private at home after hours in the dark so no one else would actually be troubled by having to hear about it.

Here's an idea: teach your kid not to say dumb siht. It's what I did and it worked. When they say something inappropriate, stop them and explain why they're never to say that again and if they do- you punish them. Repeat as needed- it's called discipline.

Problem solved.

I haven't noticed anyone discussing the merits of the article or the issues raised. The concerns, such that they are, center on the issue of making identification of the child, a 5 year old it must be remembered, and her family, whom the writer had never met.

The writer could have done good in a small place by immediately informing the parents and sharing his concerns. He had his own reasons for not doing so.

Even that being the case, he could have told his story in a big place, in the NYT, and gotten the issue out there- without the details that made the kid's identity a simple matter for many to figure out. He could have even spoken to the parents and gotten their thoughts and then included it in the piece, which would certainly be interesting, no matter what their reaction was.

He went a very different way- one that did not, as a parent would hope, alert to bad behavior that needs attention but instead publicly put a family on display- no further investigation, no questions, nothing- and simply assumed something wrong was going on in that home.

That is brutal and that is unfair.

When writing, as in life, you don't "do" someone unless you believe you have reason to "do" them- and hopefully it's a good reason, a reason that approaches some sort of justice. It's not done carelessly or without purpose.

Most people are at their core decent people. Most people when alerted to something happening that is hurtful will act to stop it if it's within their power. Sure, there are sociopaths and narcissists that would delight or deflect respectively. They are a blessedly small part of the human family.