Halloween
I realize that I no longer have a horse in this race and parents may have bigger fish to fry with our BOE. Or maybe I just haven’t scrolled down far enough through the posts to find it, but I’m shocked, just SHOCKED, that no one has anything to say about what I heard on the NYC local news the other night – that Halloween has been canceled in the South Orange/Maplewood schools this year.
No costumes, no parades, no cupcakes with ghosts and witches on them. More INCLUSION (what?)
Why should the practices and traditions of our society be left out of our kids’ education? Are ghosts and witches too traumatizing for some kids? What are kids supposed to think when they walk into ANY store this time of year with all sorts of scary things lining every wall?
Some kids can’t afford costumes. (I’m sure a group could be found to help the kids out who can’t afford them with pirate gear or a white sheet.) Is there a demographic group (witches and warlocks?) who are offended by the treatment of their beliefs through our schools.
I know you parents have lots to worry about with our schools. But did I hear this wrong? Is it true there will be no celebration of one of the best things about childhood this year in school?
Some of my favorite pictures of my kids are from the Morrow Pre-School and Clinton School Halloween parades, and so many other experiences they were so gleeful about during this time of year?
If I’m just out of the loop, set me right. Planning on sending your kid to school in costume on Halloween? You might want to check on that.
I'm mostly interested in hearing the reason(s) behind WHY???
Jaytee said:
SOUTH ORANGE - MAPLEWOOD – In light of recent developments regarding the status of Halloween celebrations in district schools, the South Orange-Maplewood Board of Education would like to clarify its role in this decision.
The Board was informed by the Superintendent that the decision to remove Halloween celebrations from all schools within the district was an administrative choice and, as such, did not necessitate formal approval by the South Orange - Maplewood School District Board of Education. The Board, therefore, did not cast any vote related to this decision. The Administration deemed it fit, based on various reasons, which they have previously stated, to make this move without a formal voting process.
Does anyone have the "previously stated" various reasons as I'm with juniemoon - long past this time as a parent but confused since I don't see any issue with this. I know that Jehovah Witnesses do not celebrate, nor do ultra Orthodox Jews, but I am just shaking my head in confusion and would like to see a statement from the Super about the various reasons. If anyone can point me this I would be grateful. thanks.
You are right, this decision is ridiculous.
It is the antithesis of what we should be doing. Learn about others cultures, rituals, celebrations and respectfully acknowledge them. Maybe I/We will not participate and adopt a holiday but I/We will accept that some in the world community do.
Is Thanksgiving next? Triggering and should no longer be mentioned as my ancestors of long ago were slain and were robbed of their land?
Respectfully Mr. Taylor, you made a wrong decision for our children and community.
A total school day was lost to chaos that excluded a large segment of the community to celebrate a religious holiday* for no educational purpose whatsoever. In some schools as much as 20% of the student population were sitting in the cafeteria while their classmates celebrated. Working parents were excluded and their children suffered as well.
The schools do not exist to make parents' happy memories. There are plenty of other activities connected with the holiday, it doesn't belong in the schools.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Don't start with the pagan roots of the day, the ancestral co-opting of previous practices does not alter the fact that All Hallows Eve is the Christian celebration of the night before All Saints Day
My kid is long out of the schools too, but I still have a home here. I think extreme choices like this give us negative publicity and affect our property values, not in a good way. Halloween is just plain fun. Walk or drive around town. There is so much creativity on display... it is core, corny MAPSO.
I feel bad for the kids. I am all for inclusion but I have never heard of large groups of kids being excluded because of a little dress up fun.
edited - Max and I posted at the same time. If it is true that 20% were excluded I will reconsider my position. IIRC I always worked so never got to participate in these events myself, not about me but my kid loved them.
max_weisenfeld said:
*Don't start with the pagan roots of the day, the ancestral co-opting of previous practices does not alter the fact that All Hallows Eve is the Christian celebration of the night before All Saints Day
I think the christian roots of this holiday are about as far removed as the pagan ones. I was, nominally, raised a Christian and I don't think I realized that a religious festival had, at one time, been attached to this holiday until I was in college.
Just out of curiosity, what types of kids are sitting this one out? I know my Sikh niece and nephews LOVE Halloween.
One could argue that Halloween as celebrated in the schools is a lot like Christmas celebrated in the schools. Supporters of both point to the “”fun” aspects of what they consider to be a non-sectarian celebration based on “American” traditions. A number of years ago, I attended a religious service in the Boston area where the sermon topic was whether members of the congregation should participate in the celebration of Halloween. The conclusion was no. The reason given was the religious roots of all hallows eve. So as Max stated, there are those who will not let their children participate for religious reasons. As our community becomes more diverse, the number of such families increases. Yes, one school in our district did report 20% of their students sitting out the Halloween celebration. Donation of costumes and provision of alternative treats for children allergic to contents of some candy which may include wheat, chocolate, nuts, and milk among well known allergens is possible. However neglecting diversity of religious belief and the association with the Christian religion is not. The school district still allows for after school celebration and that seems a reasonable accommodation.
I just want to correct one gross misperception. Halloween is not and never has been a Christian holiday, and indeed many fundamentalist Christians consider it Satanic and won't participate. when I saw this thread I assumed it was this "wing" that was behind this ban, and was surprised to see a fundie influence on our school district. I figured book bans would be next. Part of why I was so horrified by this.
I am still pondering my thoughts on the ban ... I surely don't want fun for some to make many others feel left out. But please, do not call this a Christian holiday. It is not.
I don't read the papers as much as I used to, but I don't ever recall reading about kids that were sent to hospital because they ate a candy to which they were allergic. Kid got an allergy? You tell the kid's kindergarten teacher and the kid is directed away from the food. Also, the kids themselves, know what they are not supposed to eat.
Kid can't afford a costume. I won't argue that one. I will point out, ours was not one of the richest families in Millburn. But I won several Halloween parade prizes at the town's Halloween parade with costumes that my Mom home made.
Offending somebody's religion - Fortunately, this one may disappear in 20 or 30 years. Fundamentalist Christian churches are losing attendees. 20% of poll respondents now identify as non-affiliated or agnostic/atheist. They no longer believe in the existence of a transcendent deity. The Republican Party's new johnson may help reduce the religious right's political influence, when he tries to push his beliefs onto the American populace.
Meanwhile, we are the laughing stock of the state. Fortunately, the next broadcast of Saturday Night, Live will happen after Halloween or we would be featured in the Cold Open.
HatsOff said:
Halloween is not and never has been a Christian holiday,
But please, do not call this a Christian holiday. It is not.
I don’t know how to say this politely but I think you’re misinformed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween?wprov=sfti1#
The word Halloween comes from “All Hallows Eve” which is the evening before All Hallows (Saints) Day. The public observation is almost exclusively secular, for sure, but you could say the same of Christmas and Easter at this point.
For observant Catholics, All Saints Day is a Holy Day of Obligation. As such, you can attend mass on the evening before to meet your obligation.
I wholeheartedly agree with Max and Joan on this one. It’s not the school’s responsibility to create fun memories for our kids. It’s nice to do so, but due to this holiday’s religious roots a lot of kids end up being excluded.
And I find it laughable that the idea that Halloween celebrations being banned from schools somehow deprives the kid of some cherished memories. The towns are covered in Halloween decorations, we have two major civic events in each downtown for kids in costume, trick or treating is more lucrative in this area than anything I ever remember and the airwaves (stream waves?) are chock-a-block full of Halloween themed media.
mrincredible said:
I don’t know how to say this politely but I think you’re misinformed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween?wprov=sfti1#
The word Halloween comes from “All Hallows Eve” which is the evening before All Hallows (Saints) Day. The public observation is almost exclusively secular, for sure, but you could say the same of Christmas and Easter at this point.
For observant Catholics, All Saints Day is a Holy Day of Obligation. As such, you can attend mass on the evening before to meet your obligation.
I wholeheartedly agree with Max and Joan on this one. It’s not the school’s responsibility to create fun memories for our kids. It’s nice to do so, but due to this holiday’s religious roots a lot of kids end up being excluded.
And I find it laughable that the idea that Halloween celebrations being banned from schools somehow deprives the kid of some cherished memories. The towns are covered in Halloween decorations, we have two major civic events in each downtown for kids in costume, trick or treating is more lucrative in this area than anything I ever remember and the airwaves (stream waves?) are chock-a-block full of Halloween themed media.
the roots of Halloween long predate Christianity, and are taken from the Celtic festival of Samhain. Yes, All Saints Day is a modern Christian holiday (mostly catholic but a few Protestant faiths also observe). But the Halloween traditions of costumes, trick or treating, Jack o lanterns and the like are not and never were Christian. And as I said above, the symbolism of Halloween is considered satanic by many fundamentalists.
The early Catholic Church established the holiday to honor saints and the departed to coincide with Samhain but the traditions of that festival - which we now call Halloween - were never adopted by any Christian religion. The link to the ancient Celtic religion is much, much stronger here than for other co-opted holidays such as winter solstice (Christmas) and spring equinox (Easter). Those were essentially absorbed in a way that Samhain never was.
I grant it is a religious holiday, and if we want to get technical that alone could disqualify it from celebration in our schools, even though a tiny percentage of our population (if any) celebrates Samhain in a religious manner. But while All Saints' Day is Christian, Halloween is not.
These points are irrelevant to where I will decide my thoughts on this lie. I do think that if a large number of kids are excluded, we should be mindful of that and act accordingly. But it has long rubbed me the wrong way when people call Halloween Christian. I am not a pagan so I have no personal stake in it, it is just a matter of being accurate.
I agree with HatsOff but also would like clarification on the 20 percent. Max says "some schools" and Joan says one school. I would really like a direct quote of the reasons given by the super. Regardless of the reason - Jehovah Witness or other excluding religion or personal beliefs or affordability for a costume or anything, 20 percent is a large number that should be respected. I would think that even if it is one school it's probably better to not single out that school since then there is a greater feeling of exclusion. I just want to hear the thought process of the administration.
It's ridiculous and everyone is laughing, as usual. People who don't participate simply need to be better-educated as to how Halloween is, in our society and especially in our schools, neither Christian nor Satanic, but simply fun and part of a normal childhood. We see every day how the stupidity of religious fundamentalism is literally destroying our nation and our world, but we bring the same attitude to our schools. It's secular. Grow up.
wendy said:
I agree with HatsOff but also would like clarification on the 20 percent. Max says "some schools" and Joan says one school. I would really like a direct quote of the reasons given by the super. Regardless of the reason - Jehovah Witness or other excluding religion or personal beliefs or affordability for a costume or anything, 20 percent is a large number that should be respected. I would think that even if it is one school it's probably better to not single out that school since then there is a greater feeling of exclusion. I just want to hear the thought process of the administration.
There may have been more than one school and the impact may have been greater than a single year. The instance I am aware of was in an article about Seth Boyden. I don't recall the year but it was likely pre-COVID.
kenboy said:
It's ridiculous and everyone is laughing, as usual. People who don't participate simply need to be better-educated as to how Halloween is, in our society and especially in our schools, neither Christian nor Satanic, but simply fun and part of a normal childhood. We see every day how the stupidity of religious fundamentalism is literally destroying our nation and our world, but we bring the same attitude to our schools. It's secular. Grow up.
Somehow I don't think nuance is in your vocabulary or world view. Peace be with you Mr. Grown Up.
Even governor Murphy is jumping in to the fray. “Gimme a break”
https://patch.com/new-jersey/westorange/nj-governor-school-district-s-halloween-ban-give-me-break
How about the schools don't organize anything, but if someone shows up wearing a Spiderman outfit, no one goes crazy over it? And if anyone says Spiderman is a religious figure, tell them to bring proof.
dave said:
How about the schools don't organize anything, but if someone shows up wearing a Spiderman outfit, no one goes crazy over it? And if anyone says Spiderman is a religious figure, tell them to bring proof.
He’s gonna have some explaining to do….
Figuring some more on this....
If a parent show up at a BoE meeting to complain that "X" activity needs to stop because it offends Zeus or Thor, they would be received with a polite chuckle or be told where to .... .. to.
O.T.O.h., Druids - they would get a pass in U.K. because Druids are cute.
A practitioner of Wicca? That might be interesting.
wendy said:
Somehow I don't think nuance is in your vocabulary or world view. Peace be with you Mr. Grown Up.
It is, but I've got very little patience for nonsense like this, especially where our schools are concerned -- to some extent, and I say this as a moderate Democrat, it feels very much like the left-wing version of banning books or history lessons (or, maybe more accurately, cultural celebrations) that might make the children of racists uncomfortable.
But I want to expand on something, which maybe explains why this seems so ridiculous to me:
While I (raised Jewish) see the secular observation of Christmas to not be a problem -- make those Christmas trees in art class, draw Santa, etc., sing the carols in the concerts, so long as you're also making some dreidels -- I understand and respect why that isn't OK for so many people -- it's literally the celebration of the birth of Christ, and there's a seriously large number of people who say things like "Jesus is the reason for the season," etc. While there's clearly a secular element to it, the religious elements are very much still there. When Jews say "it's not secular," not only are they largely correct in my view, but there are also a whole bunch of Christians who agree with them.
Halloween, on the other hand, exists in this very weird space where it seems like (primarily) Jewish people insist it's Christian, while simultaneously a small subset of (primarily) fundamentalist Christians insist it's Satanic ... but where neither Christians nor Satanists are out there claiming it. No one who goes to mass on All Saint's Day is claiming that dressing up the day before and parading through your elementary school is a part of their religious practice (and in fact, some would likely claim the opposite if they fall on the side that thinks it's Satanic), and I'm not aware of any of the upside-down-cross contingent who cackle with glee at the thought of first graders in Spider-Man costumes adding to their ranks. Because that would be silly. Like this entire debate.
tl;dr: Christmas is a religious holiday with non-religious secular observances to it; Halloween is NOT, but some people insist it is and insist on pushing their incorrect (and ironically, religious) views on everyone else, in a way that we'd find massively offensive if the shoe were on the other foot.
wendy said:
I would really like a direct quote of the reasons given by the super.
Here’s a link to Taylor’s letter to parents, courtesy of Village Green:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZMZNZp3S-Xju18dpz4tWfhK4ziynj94N/view
kenboy said:
Halloween, on the other hand, exists in this very weird space where it seems like (primarily) Jewish people insist it's Christian, while simultaneously a small subset of (primarily) fundamentalist Christians insist it's Satanic ... but where neither Christians nor Satanists are out there claiming it. No one who goes to mass on All Saint's Day is claiming that dressing up the day before and parading through your elementary school is a part of their religious practice
And there you have it. What religion claims this ritual?
That said, if we accept, for the sake of argument, that this most secular of all holidays is somehow "religious" at its core, are we not then violating the rights of those who celebrate it by banning them from wearing their "religious" regalia?
dave said:
How about the schools don't organize anything, but if someone shows up wearing a Spiderman outfit, no one goes crazy over it? And if anyone says Spiderman is a religious figure, tell them to bring proof.
Schools could keep me from going crazy by teaching future adults that he’s Spider-Man.
Formerlyjerseyjack said:
Figuring some more on this....
If a parent show up at a BoE meeting to complain that "X" activity needs to stop because it offends Zeus or Thor, they would be received with a polite chuckle or be told where to .... .. to.
O.T.O.h., Druids - they would get a pass in U.K. because Druids are cute.
A practitioner of Wicca? That might be interesting.
It’s possible that real families have real issues that we’d regret mocking if we knew them. No matter how how high a cultural or personal price we placed on losing in-school celebrations of Halloween.
DaveSchmidt said:
It’s possible that real families have real issues that we’d regret mocking if we knew them. No matter how how high a cultural or personal price we placed on losing in-school celebrations of Halloween.
In an infinite universe, everything is infinitely possible but not all of those possibilities warrant policy changes.
The obvious solution here is to end district sponsored activities but to allow those students who want to show up in their costumes (or, religious regalia as some would have us believe) to do so. I am pretty sure that parents groups could come together to provide costume opportunities for those who want to dress up but lack the resources to do so.
Who would be harmed?
GoSlugs said:
Who would be harmed?
In the infinite universe, the possibilities include kids whose parents won’t let them dress up and who feel like outcasts all day; kids whose costume opportunities stand out in the bespoke masses and make them feel like outcasts all day; parents who wish they could dress up their own kids but are confronted with yet another instance when they can’t afford (in time, money or both) something that most others in their school can, an instance that’s all the more galling because of its frivolity.
Those are off the top of my out-of-the-picture head; I’m assuming that the school staff who know the kids and their families could give better, more concrete examples.
The follow-up question is: Who is harmed by the policy change?
SOUTH ORANGE - MAPLEWOOD – In light of recent developments regarding the status of Halloween celebrations in district schools, the South Orange-Maplewood Board of Education would like to clarify its role in this decision.
The Board was informed by the Superintendent that the decision to remove Halloween celebrations from all schools within the district was an administrative choice and, as such, did not necessitate formal approval by the South Orange - Maplewood School District Board of Education. The Board, therefore, did not cast any vote related to this decision. The Administration deemed it fit, based on various reasons, which they have previously stated, to make this move without a formal voting process.
https://www.tapinto.net/towns/soma/sections/education/articles/south-orange-maplewood-school-district-board-of-education-addresses-halloween-celebrations-in-district-schools