Dining out spreads contagion of COVID-19. Scientific Fact or Political Fiction?
It's all about common-sense mitigation of risk.
Obviously one cannot eat with a mask on.
One can read, write, and listen with a mask on.
jimmurphy said:
It's all about common-sense mitigation of risk.
Obviously one cannot eat with a mask on.
One can read, write, and listen with a mask on.
Oh yes, but one can sneeze or cough in either one of these situations, and we were told that masks were necessary to protect people against potential spread of COVID-19 and that the droplets from your sneeze or cough could get you sick. So why aren't people to dine out more freely now not dying in high numbers? And why are the people who prepare your food required to wear masks? Are we saying only restaurant servers are particularly susceptible to COVID-19 and we must ensure we are safe from their possible spread of COVID-19 while a whole restaurant full of people are unprotected and unsupervised? I actually attended a concert recently. Now, I am vaccinated, but the venue had over 5000 people in attendance and I counted 4 people with a mask on. Now why is it that a person who is vaccinated, but not checked for a vaccination record can enter a concert venue take off their mask and rock out, and not get sick, but restaurants, schools, bars are different? Why the difference from venue to venue and state to state if we all need to follow the same common-sense mitigation science?
nohero said:
Is this thread about restaurants, about schools, or something else?
This thread is about Dining out and whether the spread of COVID-19 by dining out is a scientific fact or a political fiction? All other examples of venues and schools are purely for illustration. To stay on point, I would ask the question more narrowly. Why is science different in a dining establishment in South Orange than it is in Maplewood Township? For example, Maplewood permits more dining out options whereas South Orange does more take out. I was going for sushi tonight and I called two sushi restaurants in South Orange and they do take out only, whereas in Maplewood Mt. Fuji allows dining in and take out. Is the science different in one Township than the next? It seems these rules are made to bend the science to the political will of the Township. One would think it has to do with number of cases of deaths or hospitalizations, but I have seen no traces of cases of either directly linked to food establishments.
ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:
nohero said:
Is this thread about restaurants, about schools, or something else?
This thread is about Dining out and whether the spread of COVID-19 by dining out is a scientific fact or a political fiction? All other examples of venues and schools are purely for illustration. To stay on point, I would ask the question more narrowly. Why is science different in a dining establishment in South Orange than it is in Maplewood Township? For example, Maplewood permits more dining out options whereas South Orange does more take out. I was going for sushi tonight and I called two sushi restaurants in South Orange and they do take out only, whereas in Maplewood Mt. Fuji allows dining in and take out. Is the science different in one Township than the next? It seems these rules are made to bend the science to the political will of the Township. One would think it has to do with number of cases of deaths or hospitalizations, but I have seen no traces of cases of either directly linked to food establishments.
The different policies of the restaurants are probably due to different choices made by the owners of the restaurants. For example, some have more dining space, and better ventilation than others.
It has nothing to do with what Maplewood or South Orange "permit".
Do we really need another discussion on this? No minds are going to be changed at this point.
Just comply with whatever rules are in place. Or stay home.
nohero said:
Is this thread about restaurants, about schools, or something else?
It's about trolling.
ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:
This thread is about Dining out and whether the spread of COVID-19 by dining out is a scientific fact or a political fiction? All other examples of venues and schools are purely for illustration. To stay on point, I would ask the question more narrowly. Why is science different in a dining establishment in South Orange than it is in Maplewood Township? For example, Maplewood permits more dining out options whereas South Orange does more take out. I was going for sushi tonight and I called two sushi restaurants in South Orange and they do take out only, whereas in Maplewood Mt. Fuji allows dining in and take out. Is the science different in one Township than the next? It seems these rules are made to bend the science to the political will of the Township. One would think it has to do with number of cases of deaths or hospitalizations, but I have seen no traces of cases of either directly linked to food establishments.
I believe that, at least as applies to Ariyoshi, it was the restaurant's decision. Other restaurants in South Orange are open for in restaurant dining.
Steve said:
It's about trolling.
Am I alone here? Am I the only person who feels for the small business owner? I also visited Millburn recently and their Starbucks is closed (okay Starbucks is not a business owner), many businesses there are serving on limited hours. I guess I just wish from the beginning really, that the small business owner would have had the option of taking the initiative. There was too much politics involved on this issue in particular and still is. I mean, it's as if when people tell you to follow the science they mean political science. It's all wishy washy stuff that changes like a weather vane. I also feel that this complicates social interaction. For example, a few weeks ago, I just wanted to meet someone for coffee. Looked up the hours of business online for Starbucks in Millburn. It said, they were open until 8:00pm. When I arrived around 5:30pm they were closed. I know it's not the end of the world here right, but a consistent message would be appreciated. Has anyone tried to make dinner reservations lately? You have to make reservations two weeks in advance. Some places in Maplewood do not take reservations and if they do, they book up fast. All of these changes are due to widespread panic over COVID-19 fears perpetuated by the unscientific myth of political flavor of the day depending where you live. We are getting close to a sort of favoritism for some small businesses over others in the sense that for the year, certain businesses in certain Townships will be doing very well, whereas others in more politically sensitive Townships will not make their annual projections. Dare I say it? I'm also noticing that a lot of the small businesses that are more strictly punished are ethnic (asian) food establishments, etc... Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I don't believe in coincidences.
The last time I walked by Starbucks, it looked open.
I don't think the issue is specific to restaurants - its not about knives and forks - it's about being indoors with other people who may have a highly transmissible disease. Can't agree with you that staff are wearing masks. In my two recent forays into restaurants, my waiter in one place was not masked and nobody on the staff in the other place was masked.
On some days the U.S. is still recording new cases in six figures. If its fair to assume that most people are catching it indoors, isn't it credible to assume that at least some proportional amount of those cases are being contracted in restaurants? People often don't know where or who they got it from.
I feel for business owners and I'm worried generally about the economy. Would help a whole lot if people got vaccinated and masked up indoors.
ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:
... For example, a few weeks ago, I just wanted to meet someone for coffee. Looked up the hours of business online for Starbucks in Millburn. It said, they were open until 8:00pm. When I arrived around 5:30pm they were closed. I know it's not the end of the world here right, but a consistent message would be appreciated. ...
Do we remember what happened in that intersection "a few weeks ago" during Ida? Could there be a connection?
nohero said:
Do we remember what happened in that intersection "a few weeks ago" during Ida? Could there be a connection?
Seems he’s obsessed with high taxes and not so much about high water levels.
Steve said:
nohero said:
Is this thread about restaurants, about schools, or something else?
It's about trolling.
Nailed it.
People, don't engage the troll. Unless you're hoping to figure out who this "new" poster is. I'm kind of curious myself if it was someone who was banned or has just created another persona to troll the board.
Scientific evidence:
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0764_article
In laymen's terms:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/health/airflow-coronavirus-restaurants.html
Goody, someone who hasn’t kept up with the science for a year wants me to do their homework and assemble the data for them. I’ve got better thing to do with my evening than write a literature review. There is a lot of data on airborne transmission, and many proven cases of transmission at bars, restaurants, and even close-packed outdoor concerts. Try reading the old posts of something like “my local epidemiologist” or dearpandemic.org if you really want more data. And meet restaurants where they choose to be, and where you feel safe (for us, that means making reservations at places with outdoor dining or eating takeout).
Over here, wait staff are masked because they’re at higher risk given the numbers of people they’re in contact with during the several hours of every shift. Doesn’t matter if it’s dine-in (not much of that) or take-away (take-out).
And yes, several cases in Australia have been traced to dining establishments, nail salons, bars, gyms and shopping malls. We’ve recently had a prominent cluster (for us) from a school in Brisbane, that affected up to 1000 families - luckily, not all became sick.
If you know anything about food safety standards, food handlers should be masked and gloved any time there’s doubt about their respiratory fitness or general health, even if it’s only asthma or hay fever. You don’t want droplets of spit or snot sprayed over your food or plate, do you? We even fill out forms when we wear such PPE in normal times so it’s all traceable.
The premise of this thread is that airborne transmission in interior spaces is questionable.
okie-doke
nohero said:
Do we remember what happened in that intersection "a few weeks ago" during Ida? Could there be a connection?
Is there any evidence that the flooding was at all connected to Ida? If we follow the science, what is there that links sustained, torrential rain to flooding in low lying areas? I spoke to several meteorologists, some of whom work in hydrology, and they do not even believe flooding is connected to rain events. One recent example was here in my town of West Orange where I saw one house at the top of the hill have absolutely no flood damage, but all the houses at the bottom of the hill had full basements. They both had the same amount of rain, but probably the houses at the bottom of the hill didn't eat enough zinc.
PVW said:
Is there any evidence that the flooding was at all connected to Ida? If we follow the science, what is there that links sustained, torrential rain to flooding in low lying areas? I spoke to several meteorologists, some of whom work in hydrology, and they do not even believe flooding is connected to rain events. One recent example was here in my town of West Orange where I saw one house at the top of the hill have absolutely no flood damage, but all the houses at the bottom of the hill had full basements. They both had the same amount of rain, but probably the houses at the bottom of the hill didn't eat enough zinc.
If any of you were honest, you would all take your comments and admit they present not one shred or proof of evidence convincing anyone that dining out spreads COVID-19. None have presented proof, the guy who came closest was the guy who talked about some unknown cases in Australia. So, we have to believe that restaurants in the U.S. spread COVID-19 because there were cases reported and linked to restaurants in Australia? That's laughable. There is no connection, there is no proof, this is all just a giant political stunt. Why they have gone after small businesses is easy to see. Even the biggest fool politician can bring attention to himself/herself by attacking small business. It's all a clown show to draw attention to oneself in order to show they are doing something when all they do is spread stupidity around and around. You all believe it too. That's ridiculous!
yeah, attacking small businesses is a sure way to political success. 
ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:
If any of you were honest, you would all take your comments and admit they present not one shred or proof of evidence convincing anyone that dining out spreads COVID-19. None have presented proof, the guy who came closest was the guy who talked about some unknown cases in Australia. So, we have to believe that restaurants in the U.S. spread COVID-19 because there were cases reported and linked to restaurants in Australia? That's laughable. There is no connection, there is no proof, this is all just a giant political stunt. Why they have gone after small businesses is easy to see. Even the biggest fool politician can bring attention to himself/herself by attacking small business. It's all a clown show to draw attention to oneself in order to show they are doing something when all they do is spread stupidity around and around. You all believe it too. That's ridiculous!
if a person is unvaccinated, would you encourage them to have dinner indoors in a restaurant full of other unvaccinated people?
ml1 said:
ConcernedHighTaxPayer said:
If any of you were honest, you would all take your comments and admit they present not one shred or proof of evidence convincing anyone that dining out spreads COVID-19. None have presented proof, the guy who came closest was the guy who talked about some unknown cases in Australia. So, we have to believe that restaurants in the U.S. spread COVID-19 because there were cases reported and linked to restaurants in Australia? That's laughable. There is no connection, there is no proof, this is all just a giant political stunt. Why they have gone after small businesses is easy to see. Even the biggest fool politician can bring attention to himself/herself by attacking small business. It's all a clown show to draw attention to oneself in order to show they are doing something when all they do is spread stupidity around and around. You all believe it too. That's ridiculous!
if a person is unvaccinated, would you encourage them to have dinner indoors in a restaurant full of other unvaccinated people?
I'm interested to hear his theory on how covid actually spreads.
As long as he uses line breaks. Otherwise, all bets are off.
drummerboy said:
I'm interested to hear his theory on how covid actually spreads.
As long as he uses line breaks. Otherwise, all bets are off.
it spreads through our precious bodily fluids.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/05/health/coronavirus-restaurant-dining-masks.html
Even as officials in Texas and Mississippi lifted statewide mask mandates, researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Friday offered fresh evidence of the importance of face coverings, reporting that mask-wearing mandates were linked to fewer infections with the coronavirus and Covid-19 deaths in counties across the United States.
Federal researchers also found that counties opening restaurants for on-premises dining — indoors or outdoors — saw a rise in daily infections about six weeks later, and an increase in Covid-19 death rates about two months later.
The study does not prove cause and effect, but the findings square with other research showing that masks prevent infection and that indoor spaces foster the spread of the virus through aerosols, tiny respiratory particles that linger in the air.
“You have decreases in cases and deaths when you wear masks, and you have increases in cases and deaths when you have in-person restaurant dining,” Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky, the director of the C.D.C., said on Friday. “And so we would advocate for policies, certainly while we’re at this plateau of a high number of cases, that would listen to that public health science.”
ml1 said:
if a person is unvaccinated, would you encourage them to have dinner indoors in a restaurant full of other unvaccinated people?
I would first have to come up with an actual way of proving who is vaccinated and who is not vaccinated beyond someone showing me a picture of a card they can copy online and fill in with blue or black pen ink. That's the proof of vaccination we have now. Then I would actually come up with smart policies instead of just mimicking what New York City does for every single policy decision.
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In March of 2020 when local governments decided they were going to closed down all local eateries, restaurants, bars and food establishments I asked the controversial question, "Is this really necessary? Are Townships like Maplewood and South Orange really going to make small business in their towns close despite very little evidence showing spread of COVID-19 while dining out? Several arguments later and several iterations of closing down, partially opening, and precaution taking are we still anywhere closer to the truth? To my communities I submit to you that I am not aware of a single case of COVID-19 death or hospitalization traced back to a restaurant, bar or eatery. Not even a food truck. Okay, those are outside, but still not one case of death or hospitalization from ingesting COVID-19 when someone sneezes on your pizza, or licking a dirty fork in a restaurant, or even while enjoying a beer and open conversation sans N95 masks to protect you. In fact, in recent days, it has become very confusing because when you go to a restaurant only the servers seem to have face masks. The general public is not allowed into the establishment without a face mask, but once they sit at the dining table and grab a fork (POOF!) suddenly we are all COVID-19 free and everyone is safe again. Online people have commented such things as "why don't we switch school desks for dining tables and then children would not have to wear masks to school?" No one really checks on your vaccination status when you go out to eat, and even if they did, there is no real ID version or other way of confirming the vaccine card you took a photo of on your phone is even real. So what are we doing here people? Why are we punishing good honest hardworking small businesses with unconfirmed evidence of spread of COVID-19 in restaurants, bars and eateries? Why does the restaurant CODA have plastic film up between tables inside their restaurant when no one is asked or made to wear masks inside? Why are South Orange restaurants only doing take out? Why are politicians making small business suffer with what appears to be a political fiction instead of allowing business owners manage the COVID concerns on their own in their own premises. Why have we entrusted the success of several small businesses to the whim of non-business minded cream puff politicians? If we are to follow the science, where is the science that links dining out to death or hospitalization for COVID-19? I spoke to several physicians, some of which work in nursing homes and they do not even believe COVID-19 is spread by airborne droplets. The evidence is very thin even in nursing home settings. One recent example was of a patient who contracted COVID-19 in a nursing home. The nursing home immediately isolated all patients and accommodated them with their own room. The patient who had COVID-19 was under video surveillance and did not come into contact with the rest of the patients who in a matter of a week to ten days all became infected with COVID-19. So, back to the question "Dining out, does it spread COVID-19 or not?" Did not dining out stop a variant from threatening the new flu season? Did not dining out stop COVID-19 in other states or countries? Are there any real cases traced to dining out establishments? If so, which are worse than others? And how about that school analogy? Why is it that dining out does not require you to wear a mask once you pick up that fork or order from the menu, but picking up a pencil or Ipad in your local elementary school requires everyone to wear masks and take additional precautions?