Credit to our Right-Wingnuts
Māori culture has equal weight in law and daily life as pakeha (settler) culture and law. If the King declares something, then any Māori or Islanders present or nearby are bound by this announcement. (Being told to go home, and have your vaccine for the good of the community is quite significant. It’s also important to note that Māori don’t believe in leaving a mess behind you, you’re meant to leave your campsite pristine when you leave)
PVW said:
I was a bit confused by the Maori angle in that story. Not sure how much insight you have on that on your end?
Also, hope you're doing all right with all the flooding!
Re the awful weather and floods: we’re kinda prepared for it every cyclone season. This time, there was no cyclone, just days and days of rain. Luckily our street, and suburb, are OK. Todays weather is heavier (‘life-threatening storms’, we’re on the edge of them), and I’m on crutches, so staying home! 
Further to the NZ protests and disbanding thereof, this analysis article has just been published
I don’t claim to understand all the undercurrents, but it’s interesting that the same conspiracies in almost the same words as I hear here are reported from the recent ‘angry protestors’. And it’s like they’re hyped up to riot in set-action pieces by what they see and hear on foreign social media - all the while berating us for ‘consuming mainstream news’.
GoSlugs said:
.
Trudeau invoked the Energencies Act (FKA War Powers Act) in order to deal with the truck convoy. The Emergencies Act allowed Trudeau to freeze the bank accounts of truckers and innocents (who gave $20 to truckers via crowd sourcing platforms while such contributions were still legal).
IOW, no pesky due procees or court hearings to seize assets under the Emergencies Acr. And ex post facto application of laws (and penalties). Let us all know whether you (GoSlugs) are concerned by such issues arising from the Emergencies Act?
If not concerned, why?
PS what is happening to the Ukrainians is horrible. However, the horror of the Ukraine does not diminish the seriousness of the elimination of court hearings, due process, or ex post facto application of the law.
RealityForAll said:
IOW, no pesky due procees or court hearings to seize assets under the Emergencies Acr. And ex post facto application of laws (and penalties). Let us all know whether you (GoSlugs) are concerned by such issues arising from the Emergencies Act?
No, I am not concerned. The invocation of the Emergencies Act was long overdue. I support it 110%.
You remind me of the Cowards Convoyers who were complaining about their "First Amendment Rights". Americans on the far right treat Canada the way Putin treats the Ukraine. Canada is a free and independent country with a constitutional system that is very different than that of the United States (we have a Queen for starters).
What does concern me is American fascists and fascist simps trying to interfere in Canadian politics. That needs to stop. Yesterday.
RealityForAll said:
GoSlugs said:
.
Trudeau invoked the Energencies Act (FKA War Powers Act) in order to deal with the truck convoy. The Emergencies Act allowed Trudeau to freeze the bank accounts of truckers and innocents (who gave $20 to truckers via crowd sourcing platforms while such contributions were still legal).
IOW, no pesky due procees or court hearings to seize assets under the Emergencies Acr. And ex post facto application of laws (and penalties). Let us all know whether you (GoSlugs) are concerned by such issues arising from the Emergencies Act?
If not concerned, why?
PS what is happening to the Ukrainians is horrible. However, the horror of the Ukraine does not diminish the seriousness of the elimination of court hearings, due process, or ex post facto application of the law.
Looks to me like what we saw in Canada was the rule of law working as it should.
1. Truckers started disruptive protest.
2. Government showed restraint for 3 weeks.
3. Truckers made their point and continued to protest making demands the government simply wasn't going to accept.
4. Trudeau invoked emergency powers with parliamentary approval.
5. Government cleared the protests.
6. Trudeau releases emergency powers.
That is the rule of law.
It should also be noted that Trudeau acted with almost excessive moderation once he invoked the act and cancelled it within days of invoking it. The main use he put it to was to give cover to towing companies that were afraid of being blacklisted by the Cowards.
I say this as someone who supports the NDP, not Trudeau's Liberal Party.
GoSlugs said:
It should also be noted that Trudeau acted with almost excessive moderation once he invoked the act and cancelled it within days of invoking it. The main use he put it to was to give cover to towing companies that were afraid of being blacklisted by the Cowards.
I say this as someone who supports the NDP, not Trudeau's Liberal Party.
That is your analysis. What are your thoughts on the lack of due process and court hearings for property seizure?
What are your thoughts of freezing bank accounts of persons making legal convoy contributions via crowd sourcing?
IOW, law was changed on crowd sourcing contributions to convoy. Thereby, making such contributions illegal after having been outlawed. The penalty, freezing of bank accounts, was being applied to accounts of persons who made contributions when legal. This is a textbook example of ex post facto application of the law.
I know such issues require nuance, and examination of shades of grey. Let us all know whether you are able/willing to do such a nuanced analysis of these issues.
PS Trudeau could have avoided invoking the Emergencies Act by speaking with Convoy representatives directly, or through an emissary.
PPS Many believe that the Convoy isuesdid NOT meet the threshold for invocation of the Emergencies Act. My understanding is that this is the position of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
RealityForAll said:
What are your thoughts ...
My thoughts are that you don't know anything about what you are talking about and that you need to mind your own business. I thought I made that pretty clear in my earlier post.
RealityForAll said:
PS Trudeau could have avoided invoking the Emergencies Act by speaking with Convoy representatives directly, or through an emissary.
Only a fool negotiates with terrorists. There is a difference between peaceful protest and crippling the national economy through acts of sabotage in order to force a democratically elected government to make policy changes.
That is, of course, leaving aside the issue of the heavily armed terrorists who were arrested at the Alberta border crossing siege for plotting to murder Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Mounties) officers.
sometimes I think some Americans forget that Canada is a different country from ours, with a different constitution, as well as different norms and attitudes toward "freedom" than the U.S. Every country has to balance freedom with security. Where the Canadians decide to put that balance isn't really a concern of mine, given that it's overall one of the most free countries in the world.
RealityForAll said:
That is your analysis. What are your thoughts on the lack of due process and court hearings for property seizure?
What are your thoughts of freezing bank accounts of persons making legal convoy contributions via crowd sourcing?
IOW, law was changed on crowd sourcing contributions to convoy. Thereby, making such contributions illegal after having been outlawed. The penalty, freezing of bank accounts, was being applied to accounts of persons who made contributions when legal. This is a textbook example of ex post facto application of the law.
I know such issues require nuance, and examination of shades of grey. Let us all know whether you are able/willing to do such a nuanced analysis of these issues.
PS Trudeau could have avoided invoking the Emergencies Act by speaking with Convoy representatives directly, or through an emissary.
PPS Many believe that the Convoy isuesdid NOT meet the threshold for invocation of the Emergencies Act. My understanding is that this is the position of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
While I think real questions were raised about the appropriateness of the Emergency Act (caveat that this is from an American perspective), I was glad to see the limited and restrained way it was used (as GoSlugs noted).
On the question of bank accounts being frozen without court process, my thoughts on that depend on questions I still don't have the answer to -- how long were the accounts frozen, and what recourse do those who had their accounts frozen have open to them?
If the accounts were temporarily frozen to prevent the funding of an illegal act, but once this was dealt with the status of the accounts was adjudicated via normal legal means, then I have zero problem with that. It's the financial equivalent of having tow trucks pressed into service to remove trucks illegally blockading streets.
If the accounts remain frozen indefinitely with no clear recourse to the regular courts, then I have a problem with that.
I haven't seen anything going into those details, though, so for now I'll have to withhold judgement. Apart from that, though, overall I thought the Canadian government did a good job of balancing freedom of expression against freedom of ordinary citizens impacted by the protests to live their lives.
GoSlugs said:
RealityForAll said:
What are your thoughts ...
My thoughts are that you don't know anything about what you are talking about and that you need to mind your own business. I thought I made that pretty clear in my earlier post.
why would I mind my own business?
I happen to be a US/Canadian dual citizen. But my Canadian citizenship is absolutely not necessary for me to comment on Canada eliminating civil liberties under the guise of necessity. I am happy to discuss all of these issues related to the invocation of the Emergencies Act. Let me know if you are ready to discuss suspension of due process and ex post facto application of law.
PVW said:
RealityForAll said:
That is your analysis. What are your thoughts on the lack of due process and court hearings for property seizure?
What are your thoughts of freezing bank accounts of persons making legal convoy contributions via crowd sourcing?
IOW, law was changed on crowd sourcing contributions to convoy. Thereby, making such contributions illegal after having been outlawed. The penalty, freezing of bank accounts, was being applied to accounts of persons who made contributions when legal. This is a textbook example of ex post facto application of the law.
I know such issues require nuance, and examination of shades of grey. Let us all know whether you are able/willing to do such a nuanced analysis of these issues.
PS Trudeau could have avoided invoking the Emergencies Act by speaking with Convoy representatives directly, or through an emissary.
PPS Many believe that the Convoy isuesdid NOT meet the threshold for invocation of the Emergencies Act. My understanding is that this is the position of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
While I think real questions were raised about the appropriateness of the Emergency Act (caveat that this is from an American perspective), I was glad to see the limited and restrained way it was used (as GoSlugs noted).
On the question of bank accounts being frozen without court process, my thoughts on that depend on questions I still don't have the answer to -- how long were the accounts frozen, and what recourse do those who had their accounts frozen have open to them?
If the accounts were temporarily frozen to prevent the funding of an illegal act, but once this was dealt with the status of the accounts was adjudicated via normal legal means, then I have zero problem with that. It's the financial equivalent of having tow trucks pressed into service to remove trucks illegally blockading streets.
If the accounts remain frozen indefinitely with no clear recourse to the regular courts, then I have a problem with that.
I haven't seen anything going into those details, though, so for now I'll have to withhold judgement. Apart from that, though, overall I thought the Canadian government did a good job of balancing freedom of expression against freedom of ordinary citizens impacted by the protests to live their lives.
I am unaware whether bank accounts associated with the convoy, or its funding, have been unfrozen.
ml1 said:
sometimes I think some Americans forget that Canada is a different country from ours, with a different constitution, as well as different norms and attitudes toward "freedom" than the U.S. Every country has to balance freedom with security. Where the Canadians decide to put that balance isn't really a concern of mine, given that it's overall one of the most free countries in the world.
But it is a concern of mine.
RealityForAll said:
I am unaware whether bank accounts associated with the convoy, or its funding, have been unfrozen.
Google.
RealityForAll said:
But it is a concern of mine.
but you do understand why it might not be a concern of U.S. residents with no connection to Canada? I think Canadians are perfectly capable of deciding these issues for themselves without input from someone like me.
RealityForAll said:
I happen to be a US/Canadian dual citizen.
Man. You learn something every day.
I thought that I must be pretty oblivious, in all of the discussions that you have participated in regarding politics, issues of dual citizenship as they relate to Ted Cruz, and, most recently, the Coward's Convoy, that would have almost certainly come up in the 13 years that you have been posting on MOL but a quick review of the search function shows no mentions.
Weird how that happens.
And, just to be clear, I do believe that RFA is straight up lying about this. It is hard to have conversations with people who do not debate in good faith.
Awkward.
GoSlugs said:
RealityForAll said:
I happen to be a US/Canadian dual citizen.
Man. You learn something every day.
I thought that I must be pretty oblivious, in all of the discussions that you have participated in regarding politics, issues of dual citizenship as they relate to Ted Cruz, and, most recently, the Coward's Convoy, that would have almost certainly come up in the 13 years that you have been posting on MOL but a quick review of the search function shows no mentions.
Weird how that happens.
Weird how you won't discuss substantive issues like due process or ex post facto application of law.
In 13 years of MOL, I have never encountered anyone like you (you have assumed that you know a lot about me and are entitled to judge me). You have demanded that I mind my own business. Your mind-your-own-business mantra is the antithesis of a community bulletin board that discusses world politics, philosophy, war, invasion, civil rights and larger trends. Maybe you are not cut out for a forum where more than one POV is provided.
My best guess is that you want to use procedural methods (for example, falsely claiming that I am not Canadian and thus lack standing or sufficient knowledge of Canada. . . . your insistence that I stop "meddling" in Canada's internal affairs) in order to attempt to silence me. Both Canada and the US enjoy common law traditions such as due process and prohibition on ex post facto application of law. Thus, when Canada attempts to normalize a form of martial law ( namely, the Emergencies Act) then I am concerned for Canada, the US and all countries that share the common law tradition which generally includes the concepts of DP and prohibitions on ex post facto.
PS If you desire to know where in Canada that one side of the family hails from then look up Grimsby Ontario (approximately half way between St Catherine's and Hamilton).
RealityForAll said:
Weird how you won't discuss substantive issues like due process ex post facto application of law.
In 13 years of MOL, I have never encountered anyone like you (you have assumed that you know a lot about me and are entitled to judge me). You have demanded that I mind my own business. Your mind your own business mantra is the antithesis of a community bulletin board that discusses world politics, philosophy, war, invasion, civil rights and larger trends. Maybe you are not cut out for a forum where more than one POV is provided.
My best guess is that you want to use procedural methods (for example, falsely claiming that I am not Canadian and thus lack standing or sufficient knowledge of Canada. . . . your insistence that I stop "meddling" in Canada's internal affairs) in order to attempt to silence me. Both Canada and the US enjoy common law traditions such as due process and prohibition on ex post facto application of law. Thus, when Canada attempts to normalize a form of martial law ( namely, the Emergencies Act) then I am concerned for Canada, the US and all countries that share the common law tradition which generally includes the concepts of DP and prohibitions on ex post facto.
PS If you desire to know where in Canada that I hail from then look up Grimsby Ontario (approximately half way between St Catherine's and Hamilton).
Man, I don't believe anything you have said here and I will never believe anything you post here in the future. Sorry, no second chances.
GoSlugs said:
RealityForAll said:
Weird how you won't discuss substantive issues like due process ex post facto application of law.
In 13 years of MOL, I have never encountered anyone like you (you have assumed that you know a lot about me and are entitled to judge me). You have demanded that I mind my own business. Your mind your own business mantra is the antithesis of a community bulletin board that discusses world politics, philosophy, war, invasion, civil rights and larger trends. Maybe you are not cut out for a forum where more than one POV is provided.
My best guess is that you want to use procedural methods (for example, falsely claiming that I am not Canadian and thus lack standing or sufficient knowledge of Canada. . . . your insistence that I stop "meddling" in Canada's internal affairs) in order to attempt to silence me. Both Canada and the US enjoy common law traditions such as due process and prohibition on ex post facto application of law. Thus, when Canada attempts to normalize a form of martial law ( namely, the Emergencies Act) then I am concerned for Canada, the US and all countries that share the common law tradition which generally includes the concepts of DP and prohibitions on ex post facto.
PS If you desire to know where in Canada that I hail from then look up Grimsby Ontario (approximately half way between St Catherine's and Hamilton).
Man, I don't believe anything you have said here and I will never believe anything you post here in the future. Sorry, no second chances.
GoSlugs, excellent scam!! You are unable to address real substantive issues that I have raised repeatedly. As a result, you then make personal attacks against me as an attempt to camouflage your inadequacy regarding the issues raised.
RealityForAll said:
GoSlugs, excellent scam!! You are unable to address real substantive issues that I have raised repeatedly. As a result, you then make personal attacks against me as an attempt to camouflage your inadequacy regarding the issues raised.
LOL! Was that my dastardly masterplan all along? To lure you into a blatant lie just so I wouldn't have to deal with your absurd talking points?
You can't have a substantive discussion with some one who is just making it up as they go along. I can't take you seriously and you have no one to blame for yourself.
The prohibition against ex post facto laws in Canada (and the US) relates to criminal liability. But, I'm sure you knew that and I'm sure that you know that freezing a bank account for a limited period is not a criminal penalty.
RealityForAll said:
I am unaware whether bank accounts associated with the convoy, or its funding, have been unfrozen.
And just because you are unaware of something doesn't make it not a fact. Before commenting, it's helpful to have a knowledge of the facts. As Bernard Baruch said, "Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Nor, above all, to persist in errors as to facts."
Steve said:
RealityForAll said:
I am unaware whether bank accounts associated with the convoy, or its funding, have been unfrozen.
And just because you are unaware of something doesn't make it not a fact. Before commenting, it's helpful to have a knowledge of the facts. As Bernard Baruch said, "Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Nor, above all, to persist in errors as to facts."
if I was really hot and bothered about the invocation of an emergency powers law, I'd have been following it closely enough to know it was revoked within days of the protesters disbursing.
Why would you like your own comment?? Isn’t that a deceptive practice on an open notice board?
- ‘Puzzled’, in another Commonwealth nation
RealityForAll said:
why would I mind my own business?
I happen to be a US/Canadian dual citizen. But my Canadian citizenship is absolutely not necessary for me to comment on Canada eliminating civil liberties under the guise of necessity. I am happy to discuss all of these issues related to the invocation of the Emergencies Act. Let me know if you are ready to discuss suspension of due process and ex post facto application of law.
#freedumb #mineminemine