Ask Me Anything • Licensed Master Plumber

KeithMeyer said:

Thank for the reply. I'm not sure why "clock your gas meter" be useful in my situation as the furnace is certainly producing a lot of steam, as all the other radiators in the house are getting hot. I'm pretty sure that the branch from the main pipe to the radiator has no horizontal places where water could pool and block the steam (there is a 4 ft angled pipe in the basement this comes off the main pipe, then I think there is just an "L" joint and the rest of the branch is vertical up to the radiator valve). Have you ever heard of something blocking a vertical pipe or an "L" joint?

No, but I have heard of and personally witnessed wide open branch valves with radiators removed and no steam coming out.


So here is a weird question: why does my door bell ring when I turn on the hot water for my kitchen sink ?  It is a weird ring and may last for only a few seconds but can ring for up to few minutes. It eventually peters out and stops. It can be jarring, especially late at night (no one is at the door!).  Might be a better question for an electrician, but it only starts when the hot water is turned on so plumbing has to be involved somehow.  Thanks for your anticipated response. 


Sparky123 said:

So here is a weird question: why does my door bell ring when I turn on the hot water for my kitchen sink ?  It is a weird ring and may last for only a few seconds but can ring for up to few minutes. It eventually peters out and stops. It can be jarring, especially late at night (no one is at the door!).  Might be a better question for an electrician, but it only starts when the hot water is turned on so plumbing has to be involved somehow.  Thanks for your anticipated response. 

That’s got to be one of the strangest things I’ve ever heard of. If it’s a hard wired door bell, maybe there’s a frayed door bell wire touching the hot water line under the sink. Trace the wire back to the transformer (which is usually in the basement not far from the main panel).



Sparky123 said:

So here is a weird question: why does my door bell ring when I turn on the hot water for my kitchen sink ?  It is a weird ring and may last for only a few seconds but can ring for up to few minutes. It eventually peters out and stops. It can be jarring, especially late at night (no one is at the door!).  Might be a better question for an electrician, but it only starts when the hot water is turned on so plumbing has to be involved somehow.  Thanks for your anticipated response. 

Yes, odd, but that's exactly what I like. A puzzle. You've ruled out hot water in any other place, like bathroom sinks and showers, the washing machine, and the basement slop sink I assume. Do you have a dishwasher that draws hot water next to your sink? Does it ring your bell or not? Is there an extendable spray hose on the kitchen faucet? It seems silly but I wonder if using that thing affects the bell's ring when it is used after the hot water is turned on? Pulled out a little or a lot probably wouldn't make a difference but it would be a hoot if it did.

I like Jaytee's notion of something affecting a wire. Is the sink between your electrical panel and the room the doorbell or doorbell ringer is?


master_plvmber said:

No, but I have heard of and personally witnessed wide open branch valves with radiators removed and no steam coming out.


What did you do in those cases? What was the cause? I tried using a plumbing snake and I get around the "L" near the valve then gets hung up on something. Would it be crazy to pour some water down the pipe? If I had a plumber come what would they do that I can't? Thanks so much for your time.

Door Bell -    To JT’s point, I’ve always thought it was a frayed wire somewhere.  Admittedly the wires are old and that probably is the problem.  But why would a frayed wire near or touching a pipe with water flowing through make the bell ring ?  I have traced back before and think I fix the problem by playing with the wires only to get the ringing again.  I had only noticed that it happened with the hot water from the kitchen sink, but it just went off today when the washing machine in basement was in use.  

To answer Keith’s question, although not on the same floor, the sink (1sr floor) and washing machine (basement) are between the bell mechanism and electrical panel.   


Sparky123 said:

Door Bell -    To JT’s point, I’ve always thought it was a frayed wire somewhere.  Admittedly the wires are old and that probably is the problem.  But why would a frayed wire near or touching a pipe with water flowing through make the bell ring ?  I have traced back before and think I fix the problem by playing with the wires only to get the ringing again.  I had only noticed that it happened with the hot water from the kitchen sink, but it just went off today when the washing machine in basement was in use.  

To answer Keith’s question, although not on the same floor, the sink (1sr floor) and washing machine (basement) are between the bell mechanism and electrical panel.   

I’m really intrigued by this mystery. I would change the wire, and the transformer. Before you do that though, check the ground wire connection on your water heater. 
if all else fails, replace door bell with a wireless system.. 

good luck, and keep us posted when and how you resolve this. 


Oooh, a wayward grounding wire. Now I'm getting excited.


KeithMeyer said:


What did you do in those cases? What was the cause? I tried using a plumbing snake and I get around the "L" near the valve then gets hung up on something. Would it be crazy to pour some water down the pipe? If I had a plumber come what would they do that I can't? Thanks so much for your time.

Hi MP,

I'm done trying to solve this problem myself. Can I hire you to take a look? How can I reach you? I just requested to join your Facebook page.

Thanks,

Keith


KeithMeyer said:

Hi MP,

I'm done trying to solve this problem myself. Can I hire you to take a look? How can I reach you? I just requested to join your Facebook page.

Thanks,

Keith

Please send me an email here and thank you very much:
https://torototherescue.com/contact/


Sparky123 said:

So here is a weird question: why does my door bell ring when I turn on the hot water for my kitchen sink ?  It is a weird ring and may last for only a few seconds but can ring for up to few minutes. It eventually peters out and stops. It can be jarring, especially late at night (no one is at the door!).  Might be a better question for an electrician, but it only starts when the hot water is turned on so plumbing has to be involved somehow.  Thanks for your anticipated response. 

What makes your hot water? Or, what type of water heater do you have?



Jaytee said:

Sparky123 said:

Door Bell -    To JT’s point, I’ve always thought it was a frayed wire somewhere.  Admittedly the wires are old and that probably is the problem.  But why would a frayed wire near or touching a pipe with water flowing through make the bell ring ?  I have traced back before and think I fix the problem by playing with the wires only to get the ringing again.  I had only noticed that it happened with the hot water from the kitchen sink, but it just went off today when the washing machine in basement was in use.  

To answer Keith’s question, although not on the same floor, the sink (1sr floor) and washing machine (basement) are between the bell mechanism and electrical panel.   

I’m really intrigued by this mystery. I would change the wire, and the transformer. Before you do that though, check the ground wire connection on your water heater. 
if all else fails, replace door bell with a wireless system.. 

good luck, and keep us posted when and how you resolve this. 

Kudos to Jaytee! You win the daily double!  As suggested, I checked the ground to the water heater. There is a 
copper ground wire strung up between cold and hot water pipes just above the heater, but the screw holding the end to the hot water pipe was somewhat loose.  I tightened it. So far no bell ringing!  Looks like this is the answer. But Jaytee please explain why the loose ground made the bell ring. Thanks again for the solution.  


In addition, you get extra kudos because there is a fact that I neglected to mention that perhaps would have led to the solution quicker … the bell ringing started after we had the water heater replaced.  


The door bell transformer has a green ground wire. Your transformer was sending current back up through the neutral wire bridging the circuit. if the ground is not connected (bonded) to the neutral, or the system ground is not properly grounded to the Earth, two bad conditions will exist: zero voltage will not have a ground reference, which can lead to irregular and inconvenient voltages, fault currents will not have a path back to the source, which is the ground wire connected to the water supply pipe coming into your house. 
only when you use the hot water the copper pipe (which I assumed you have in and out of your water heater) expanded with the heat and caused a ‘short’ , but your bell transformer runs on very low voltage so it won’t trip a breaker. But I’m glad you figured it out. Something like that could cause a fire in a lightning storm. There’s a reason why in New Jersey you must have that bonding across the hot and cold pipes on the heater. 


Jaytee said:

The door bell transformer has a green ground wire. Your transformer was sending current back up through the neutral wire bridging the circuit. if the ground is not connected (bonded) to the neutral, or the system ground is not properly grounded to the Earth, two bad conditions will exist: zero voltage will not have a ground reference, which can lead to irregular and inconvenient voltages, fault currents will not have a path back to the source, which is the ground wire connected to the water supply pipe coming into your house. 
only when you use the hot water the copper pipe (which I assumed you have in and out of your water heater) expanded with the heat and caused a ‘short’ , but your bell transformer runs on very low voltage so it won’t trip a breaker. But I’m glad you figured it out. Something like that could cause a fire in a lightning storm. There’s a reason why in New Jersey you must have that bonding across the hot and cold pipes on the heater. 

Assuming this applies to a gas water heater as well?

Can you post a photo of a proper bond wire?


It applies to both types of water heater. You’re basically taking the ground from the cold water to the hot to complete the proper grounding of the pipes. Home Depot sells them.

jimmurphy said:

Assuming this applies to a gas water heater as well?

Can you post a photo of a proper bond wire?


Or, per Toro’s installation last fall.


DaveSchmidt said:

Or, per Toro’s installation last fall.

Jeez. Of all the pictures of our work to post...
question


Similar looking. Here is the culprit. 


master_plvmber said:

Jeez. Of all the pictures of our work to post...
question

I'm sure jimmurphy won't hold it against you. He should know who the photographer in my family is.


Thanks everyone. We don’t have one. Never have. That will change shortly.


master_plvmber said:

Wow, Jeff. That boiler was installed by someone who has no idea how to install steam boiler piping. I guess keep cleaning it and wait for it to die one day. The piping can then be redone by someone who knows how to read an installation manual. 

Sorry for my tone here, but that's just awful. 

Who's next? 

Just curious, would it be worth it for him to redo the piping now? (i.e. the additional heating cost due to the incorrect piping.)  Depending upon the age of the boiler, it could last another 10-20 years.

Regards,

RCH


Question:  Is there a backup battery device that I can use to start my gas furnace when the electricity goes out?   The thermostat has a small battery, but this does not start the furnace when the electricity goes out.   I have a forty-year-old gas furnace with a pilot light that works just fine and it does not have the electric spark and electric-powered vent closing device that newer furnaces have.   My water heater works even when the electricity is out.   If there is such a device, If so, I can be relieved of knowing that the house will not freeze if there is a prolonged electricity outage in the middle of cold weather.  During hurricane Sandy, I had hot water but no furnace heat for about a week.  


RobertRoe said:

Question:  Is there a backup battery device that I can use to start my gas furnace when the electricity goes out?   The thermostat has a small battery, but this does not start the furnace when the electricity goes out.   I have a forty-year-old gas furnace with a pilot light that works just fine and it does not have the electric spark and electric-powered vent closing device that newer furnaces have.   My water heater works even when the electricity is out.   If there is such a device, If so, I can be relieved of knowing that the house will not freeze if there is a prolonged electricity outage in the middle of cold weather.  During hurricane Sandy, I had hot water but no furnace heat for about a week.  

There are lots of ways to do it but nothing off the shelf that I know of. You'd need a battery, an inverter, a couple of relays, and a willing electrician. For what there is available, you'd have to manually switch over to the battery yourself. Or you could get a whole house generator. Those are automatic. 


RR:  Some people may have have provided the needed details for DIY,  here,  in discussions right after the Halloween snowstorm or Sandy. 


dickf3 said:

RR:  Some people may have have provided the needed details for DIY,  here,  in discussions right after the Halloween snowstorm or Sandy. 

That was to power a boiler, though, not a furnace.


DanDietrich said:

That was to power a boiler, though, not a furnace.

People erroneously call boilers furnaces all the time, so it might apply.


Hi, I have a question concerning a gas hot-water heater. It's a standard, AO Scott, 48-gallon. Lately in our family of four we've been noticing that the hot water runs out quicker than before. It's been a few months of this. After some research I realized I've been missing out on the draining part of owning a hot-water heater. Embarrassing, but it's now been in use for about 10 years and I've never drained it to reduce the sediment. We have incoming hard water and no softener for the house. I'm wondering if it can still be drained with any hope of improvement, or should I just take my lumps and start looking for a new one?  Thanks very much in advance!


guitardad said:

Hi, I have a question concerning a gas hot-water heater. It's a standard, AO Scott, 48-gallon. Lately in our family of four we've been noticing that the hot water runs out quicker than before. It's been a few months of this. After some research I realized I've been missing out on the draining part of owning a hot-water heater. Embarrassing, but it's now been in use for about 10 years and I've never drained it to reduce the sediment. We have incoming hard water and no softener for the house. I'm wondering if it can still be drained with any hope of improvement, or should I just take my lumps and start looking for a new one?  Thanks very much in advance!

do you know how to drain the water heater? You should drain it until the water runs clear. 


Jaytee said:

do you know how to drain the water heater? You should drain it until the water runs clear. 

Hi Jaytee, good question. Though I've never done it before, based on what I've watched/read, I should be able to do it. Though not sure how much sediment may have built up near the outlet at this point, so I was concerned it might not even flow out. The ultimate goal of having it run clear was one of the things I read about. 


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